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Coronavirus.

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Peter Kelford

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I'd imagine compliance will be high among ASD people, following rules strictly and to the letter is a common trait. More likely I'd think of getting upset that others aren't.
It's a common misconception rather than a trait.

As I understand it the places chosen for closure were locations were large or big groups of people congregate and socialise at.
And hairdressers etc. have some element of societal functioning.

Is the correct answer.
No one said that any of this was going to be easy, we all have to make sacrifices for the greater good.
Try explaining that to someone who has Autism or ADHD, people who need routine. Have you ever tried living with someone with those conditions? Sometimes you/they need to go outside to cool downotherwise they have meltdowns etc...

Or are they morally deficient too?
No-one did say it was going to be easy for anyone. However, the idea that using stereotypes (which I at one point shared before actually meeting anyone with ASDs) doesn't actually help. ASD is not one condition it is a spectrum of conditions. In this spectrum, there are many different behaviours exhibited by different conditions. Thus, one ASD-diagnosed individual will have different behaviour to that of another. One may be able to cope not too differently to the rest of us while another might have serious difficulties. Ultimately, it is not in the public interest to coop people up unnecessarily. Keeping distance and not frequenting busy places is the most important. Going into high-density locations is the most dangerous, but if you are staying 2m away from others at all times there isn't a problem, as the French government has shown.
 
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Peter Kelford

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And you believed him?
I believe that he will pile up the country with 15 or 20-year debt and then leave it to a Labour chancellor to clear it. Being 40 years old, I picture him on the Conservative front benches blaming Labour for paying his debt.
 

Mogster

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To make this seem more valid there really needs to be some estimate for how many would die anyway or of other circulating cold/flu group illnesses. 1500 people die every day 600,000 every year. You can’t say that every person with CoV2 infection has CoV2 infection as a primary cause of death. It’s even more important with the demographics of CoV2 which are highly skewed towards the very elderly. The BBC suggests today they may have underestimated how much ICU capacity can be increased or how much each patient will require.

As I’ve said previously I do think (hope) we are being presented with a worse case scenario, which is useful if you want to improve compliance. The problem also seems to be that cases are disproportionately affecting one area, London, as has happened in N Italy and New York. We have a relatively small country maybe the most serious can be moved to areas with less pressure on health services.
 

Bantamzen

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I believe that he will pile up the country with 15 or 20-year debt and then leave it to a Labour chancellor to clear it. Being 40 years old, I picture him on the Conservative front benches blaming Labour for paying his debt.

I can see that too, as well as recession, higher taxes, lower pension age, higher pensionable age, lower living standards. These measures are going to leave us hamstrung for decades, and that's before we even factor in the 'B' word....

To make this seem more valid there really needs to be some estimate for how many would die anyway or of other circulating cold/flu group illnesses. 1500 people die every day 600,000 every year. You can’t say that every person with CoV2 infection has CoV2 infection as a primary cause of death. It’s even more important with the demographics of CoV2 which are highly skewed towards the very elderly. The BBC suggests today they may have underestimated how much ICU capacity can be increased or how much each patient will require.

As I’ve said previously I do think (hope) we are being presented with a worse case scenario, which is useful if you want to improve compliance. The problem also seems to be that cases are disproportionately affecting one area, London, as has happened in N Italy and New York. We have a relatively small country maybe the most serious can be moved to areas with less pressure on health services.

Having read that article, I am seriously concerned that these models are seriously flawed & are driving decisions that will have a massive impact on society, and yet might not actually be making that much of a difference. For those that have not yet seen it, link & text follows (note there are some charts on it worth also looking at).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

The drastic measures taken in the UK to tackle coronavirus have been justified because of the need to save lives. Modelling by Imperial College London - used to inform government - suggests 500,000 could die if we do nothing. Even the government's previous strategy to slow the spread was likely to lead to 250,000 deaths, the research showed. The warnings prompted ministers to announce on Monday the most draconian crackdown on freedom in peacetime with the public told not to go to pubs, clubs or theatres, and to work from home if possible. The move has hit the economy, putting jobs at risk and prompting schools to be closed and exams cancelled.


Professor Neil Ferguson, one of the lead academics involved in the modelling, told the BBC's Today Programme this week there was "no option" if 250,000 lives were not to be risked. Sir Patrick Vallance, the government's chief scientific adviser, said in an appearance before the Health Select Committee, that the hope was to keep the death toll below 20,000 by suppressing the virus. That would still be worse than those killed by flu, he said, giving a number of 8,000 per year. He said limiting deaths to 20,000 would be "horrible" but still represented a "good outcome" given where we are.

The figures for coronavirus are eye-watering. But what is not clear - because the modellers did not map this - is to what extent the deaths would have happened without coronavirus. Given that the old and frail are the most vulnerable, would these people be dying anyway? Every year more than 500,000 people die in England and Wales: factor in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the figure tops 600,000. The coronavirus deaths will not be on top of this. Many would be within this "normal" number of expected deaths. In short, they would have died anyway. It was a point conceded by Sir Patrick at a press conference on Thursday when he said there would be "some overlap" between coronavirus deaths and expected deaths - he just did not know how much of an overlap.

In contrast, the figure he gave for flu deaths to MPs - 8,000 - is different. It is actually the number of deaths over and above what you would expect to happen in any given year. Many more die with flu, but the figure gives you an indication of how many more die because of flu, whereas the 20,000, 250,000 and 500,000 figures for coronavirus are simply the number of deaths linked to coronavirus. The testing which has been done in many countries means we know when a patient dies with the virus inside their body. What it does not tell us is to what extent coronavirus contributed to the death.

There are, of course, other factors at play here. Left unchecked, the deaths would come very quickly. The 500,000 deaths could all occur in the UK by August, the modellers said. This in itself would overwhelm the health service - if they were right - putting even more lives at risk, because care would not be available for others. But there is certainly evidence to suggest the modellers have underestimated the ability of the NHS to increase intensive care capacity.

NHS England chief executive Simon Stevens suggested intensive care capacity could be doubled, after this modelling came out. What else has not been done is a proper assessment of the economic and social costs of the measures taken, which themselves will put lives and health at risk. As we get deeper into this crisis, we will need much greater intelligence on just how many lives are truly being saved, and compare that to the wider cost to society, so the government and the public can weigh up the best course of action.
 

Ianno87

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I'd imagine compliance will be high among ASD people, following rules strictly and to the letter is a common trait. More likely I'd think of getting upset that others aren't.

Depends where you are on the spectrum.

For some, even a slight change/disruption to a daily routine can be distressing.
 

hooverboy

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To make this seem more valid there really needs to be some estimate for how many would die anyway or of other circulating cold/flu group illnesses. 1500 people die every day 600,000 every year. You can’t say that every person with CoV2 infection has CoV2 infection as a primary cause of death. It’s even more important with the demographics of CoV2 which are highly skewed towards the very elderly. The BBC suggests today they may have underestimated how much ICU capacity can be increased or how much each patient will require.

As I’ve said previously I do think (hope) we are being presented with a worse case scenario, which is useful if you want to improve compliance. The problem also seems to be that cases are disproportionately affecting one area, London, as has happened in N Italy and New York. We have a relatively small country maybe the most serious can be moved to areas with less pressure on health services.
that being the case, then the government should also be in dialogue with hotel chains- they will be anxious to either offload a bit of their portfolio,or get an income stream of some kind.The government can then use such a facility as an ICU.
Would make sense, seperate rooms for patients, rooms generally big enough for medical equipment and large scale sanitary storage/disposal.
guest restaurant and conference areas big enough to handle an operating theatre.
 

Mogster

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I can see that too, as well as recession, higher taxes, lower pension age, higher pensionable age, lower living standards. These measures are going to leave us hamstrung for decades, and that's before we even factor in the 'B' word....



Having read that article, I am seriously concerned that these models are seriously flawed & are driving decisions that will have a massive impact on society, and yet might not actually be making that much of a difference. For those that have not yet seen it, link & text follows (note there are some charts on it worth also looking at).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51979654

I’m sure the government scientists must be aware of this. If I’d been asked to review that paper that’s what I’d have questioned. It’s limitations seem obvious.

I think this is more about compliance, and providing people with scientific evidence by way of an explanation, which is fair enough. In London (and New York) there’s no doubt hospital cases are increasing at an alarming rate. At some point you reach a level where CoV2 cases prevent “routine” admissions from accessing healthcare. This could cause more deaths than CoV2, but that’s just my opinion.
 

JonathanH

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It’s even more important with the demographics of CoV2 which are highly skewed towards the very elderly.

While that is true, many many young healthy people would die if the disease were to be allowed to run freely through the population because there would be no capacity to treat those who react badly to the disease.

I don't see how the country would accept the sight of rudimentary field hospitals or people being left to die at home because there is no room in the proper hospitals. No one wants to end up seeing swimming pools drained to act as mortuaries.

At some point you reach a level where CoV2 cases prevent “routine” admissions from accessing healthcare. This could cause more deaths than CoV2, but that’s just my opinion.

That is clearly a good point and leads to an even slower response to the disease. However, as you say, hospital cases are already no doubt increasing at an alarming rate.
 

yorksrob

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Also, just because London is ahead, doesn't mean that things won't catch-up elsewhere if measures aren't taken.

It will be much easier to treat the problem in London if resources don't have to be spread elswhere so much.

I noticed that there have been six cases confirmed in Wakefield - i.e. requiring medical attention. It's very much reached here.
 

JonathanH

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the government should also be in dialogue with hotel chains- they will be anxious to either offload a bit of their portfolio,or get an income stream of some kind.The government can then use such a facility as an ICU.
Would make sense, seperate rooms for patients, rooms generally big enough for medical equipment and large scale sanitary storage/disposal.
guest restaurant and conference areas big enough to handle an operating theatre.

While there is some merit in this idea, there would still be a long delay before this is practical. The equipment needed does not yet exist, the hotel rooms would need considerable rebuild for this purpose - eg new flooring, doorways, lifts not suitable for beds to go through. They may not have enough vertical space for the equipment when it is ready.
 
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notlob.divad

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While there is some merit in this idea, there would still be a long delay before this is practical. The equipment needed does not yet exist, the hotel rooms would need considerable rebuild for this purpose - eg new flooring, doorways, lifts not suitable for beds to go through. They may not have enough vertical space for the equipment when it is ready.
Using them as ICUs will be impractical, but taking them over for less severe cases, for quarantine and recovery would make sense. Anything that frees up space in the hospitals. The big problem is staffing levels. Whilst you can comandeer a hotel as a new hospital ward, You cannot recruit 50000 nurses overnight.
 

Mogster

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I’m sure these sorts of things are being looked at, availability and suitability of buildings already close to existing hospitals.

There is a lot of stuff going on within the NHS, not all of it is being reported in the media. The major problem is how to divert resources to CoV2 without compromising routine services.
 

Bantamzen

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I’m sure the government scientists must be aware of this. If I’d been asked to review that paper that’s what I’d have questioned. It’s limitations seem obvious.

I think this is more about compliance, and providing people with scientific evidence by way of an explanation, which is fair enough. In London (and New York) there’s no doubt hospital cases are increasing at an alarming rate. At some point you reach a level where CoV2 cases prevent “routine” admissions from accessing healthcare. This could cause more deaths than CoV2, but that’s just my opinion.

If this really is about compliance, then that is even more worrying. Look at the effect it has had so far, people practically fighting in the isles over loo roll. It is the responsibility of the government to give us accurate information and forecasts. If this model is flawed then that should be declared, not used as a weapon to beat back the proles.
 

dtaylor84

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If they are that vulnerable they presumably have some sort of carer or companionship to keep an eye on them?

Mental health services were stretched far too thin even before this crisis.

Unfortunately many people do not have a support network.
 

krus_aragon

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While there is some merit in this idea, there would still be a long delay before this is practical. The equipment needed does not yet exist, the hotel rooms would need considerable rebuild for this purpose - eg new flooring, doorways, lifts not suitable for beds to go through. They may not have enough vertical space for the equipment when it is ready.
Slight tangent: On Anglesey, the high school built in Amlwch in the early 1950s was designed to serve as a convalescence hospital in the event of a nuclear war: corridors of classrooms opening out onto balconies for fresh air, etc.

Naturally, the kind of nuclear war that was anticipated in the late '40s was very different.
 

Bletchleyite

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Slight tangent: On Anglesey, the high school built in Amlwch in the early 1950s was designed to serve as a convalescence hospital in the event of a nuclear war: corridors of classrooms opening out onto balconies for fresh air, etc.

Naturally, the kind of nuclear war that was anticipated in the late '40s was very different.

As a slight aside, has anyone ever worked in the DWP building at Peel Park, Blackpool? I did for a bit ages ago, and that looks laid out internally for easy conversion to a hospital or prison.

The other site at Lytham is/was the opposite - it was converted *from* a wartime hospital!
 

RichT54

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The Queen said that the royal family 'stand ready to play their part', so perhaps they should convert Buckingham Palace into a hospital <:D
 

Mogster

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If this really is about compliance, then that is even more worrying. Look at the effect it has had so far, people practically fighting in the isles over loo roll. It is the responsibility of the government to give us accurate information and forecasts. If this model is flawed then that should be declared, not used as a weapon to beat back the proles.

Normally I’d agree, but right now we really do need compliance.

The NHS and PHE can’t suddenly magic more equipment like ventilators and PCR test machines. This equipment is in global demand and all we can do is make best use of the stuff we have currently. So we reduce demand, if that means people staying in on a Saturday night and watching Netflix at low bitrate then so be it.
 

Bletchleyite

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Normally I’d agree, but right now we really do need compliance.

The NHS and PHE can’t suddenly magic more equipment like ventilators and PCR test machines. This equipment is in global demand and all we can do is make best use of the stuff we have currently. So we reduce demand, if that means people staying in on a Saturday night and watching Netflix at low bitrate then so be it.

This will happen now everywhere has closed. At worst groups of friends might congregate at each others' houses, but these are people who have likely already spread it to each other if they were going to anyway so the effect will be limited.

The UK in March isn't the sort of place where groups meet up in parks just to sit and chat. It's too cold!
 

Mogster

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This will happen now everywhere has closed. At worst groups of friends might congregate at each others' houses, but these are people who have likely already spread it to each other if they were going to anyway so the effect will be limited.

The UK in March isn't the sort of place where groups meet up in parks just to sit and chat. It's too cold!

Yes. I notice Australia is closing its beaches to prevent people gathering there.
 

ainsworth74

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As a slight aside, has anyone ever worked in the DWP building at Peel Park, Blackpool? I did for a bit ages ago, and that looks laid out internally for easy conversion to a hospital or prison.

Isn't that just a byproduct of the DWP corporate style?
 

Mogster

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The tourism industry worldwide is going to be a big victim of this. It may take decades to recover :( .

Yes and it plays a huge part in many countries economies. France especially of the large economies, less so for the UK.

The problem is when you forcibly change people’s behaviour they may never revert to their old ways. I can see this being particularly damaging for the hospitality and entertainment industries. A proportion of their best customers who are now forced to stay at home will get used to making their own dinner, watching TV with a glass of vino or pint and never return.
 

Bantamzen

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Normally I’d agree, but right now we really do need compliance.

The NHS and PHE can’t suddenly magic more equipment like ventilators and PCR test machines. This equipment is in global demand and all we can do is make best use of the stuff we have currently. So we reduce demand, if that means people staying in on a Saturday night and watching Netflix at low bitrate then so be it.

We'l have to agree to disagree on this, I personally think it will prove more damaging.
 

Mogster

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We'l have to agree to disagree on this, I personally think it will prove more damaging.

So you’d prefer to watch film of overflowing hospitals on the news, and possible social unrest? I’m not trying to be alarmist but the situation is that serious.
 

trainophile

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Yes and it plays a huge part in many countries economies. France especially of the large economies, less so for the UK.

The problem is when you forcibly change people’s behaviour they may never revert to their old ways. I can see this being particularly damaging for the hospitality and entertainment industries. A proportion of their best customers who are now forced to stay at home will get used to making their own dinner, watching TV with a glass of vino or pint and never return.

Sadly I have to agree. Tim Martin's heyday could be over.
 
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