Correct Oyster usage Euston -> WFJ with zonal Oyster + PAYG credit + paper extension

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soil

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If you hold an Oyster travelcard, valid for zones 1 and 2, with additional PAYG credit, and a paper Boundary Zone 2 - Watford Junction ticket (groupsave, in case you are wondering why you wouldn't use the PAYG credit), would you be able to get through the barriers at Euston using the BZ2 ticket?

If not, would you be charged a maximum fare if you touched in at EUS using Oyster and didn't touch out at WFJ?
 
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calc7

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Why would you want to use the BZ2 ticket in a gate in Zone 1? The ticket is not valid there.

If you touched in at Euston and did not touch out at WFJ, you would have an incomplete journey on your Oyster. You would not be charged. If you made a habit of this, however, TfL may scrutinise the usage more closely from what I've heard.
 

yorkie

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If you hold an Oyster travelcard, valid for zones 1 and 2, with additional PAYG credit, and a paper Boundary Zone 2 - Watford Junction ticket (groupsave, in case you are wondering why you wouldn't use the PAYG credit), would you be able to get through the barriers at Euston using the BZ2 ticket?
In theory I suppose you could show both the Travelcard (held on an Oyster card in this case) and the BZ2 ticket at the manual gate. I suspect, however, they would instruct you to tap your Oyster card on the reader.
If not, would you be charged a maximum fare if you touched in using Oyster and didn't touch out at WFJ?
No, a deduction should not be made at Euston, and you could use the BZ2 ticket to exit at Watford Junction.

That's how I understand it anyway. MikeWh is the Oyster/TfL expert and I'm sure he'll correct me if I've misunderstood anything.
 

soil

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Why would you want to use the BZ2 ticket in a gate in Zone 1? The ticket is not valid there.
Well I'd be worried about being overcharged if I were to touch my Oyster card on a reader at Euston, as it seems to happen pretty much every time I go through a National Rail station.

I guess the point is the travelcard is valid for travel from there so they have no reason to charge you, but obviously the potential is there for you to travel well beyond Zone 2, and I can see why they might want to try.
 

RJ

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Why would you want to use the BZ2 ticket in a gate in Zone 1? The ticket is not valid there.

If you touched in at Euston and did not touch out at WFJ, you would have an incomplete journey on your Oyster. You would not be charged. If you made a habit of this, however, TfL may scrutinise the usage more closely from what I've heard.
Boundary Zone tickets do work the gates at certain London Terminals, such as Marylebone and Euston.
 

calc7

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Boundary Zone tickets do work the gates at certain London Terminals, such as Marylebone and Euston.
That does surprise me, as it creates a huge potential for fare evasion (TOCs often seem to err on the side of the caution when it comes to programming gates).

Either way, soil, you need to think of a Zones 1 and 2 season on Oyster the same as a paper one - you wouldn't worry about "ending" your journey with a paper season you'd put through a gateline earlier!
 

MikeWh

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If you hold an Oyster travelcard, valid for zones 1 and 2, with additional PAYG credit...

If not, would you be charged a maximum fare if you touched in at EUS using Oyster and didn't touch out at WFJ?
Absolutely not. There is no deduction made at touch in or out within your zones unless touch out matches an earlier touch in for a journey that would have left your zones. [e.g. zone 3-6 held and travel made from East Croydon to Elstree & Borehamwood would charge a zone 1-2 NR fare]
If you touched in at Euston and did not touch out at WFJ, you would have an incomplete journey on your Oyster. You would not be charged. If you made a habit of this, however, TfL may scrutinise the usage more closely from what I've heard.
I'm not sure about that. Have you a source? There may be investigations as part of a wider operation, but TfL would probably need suspiscion of doughnutting from a TOC first.
In theory I suppose you could show both the Travelcard (held on an Oyster card in this case) and the BZ2 ticket at the manual gate. I suspect, however, they would instruct you to tap your Oyster card on the reader.

No, a deduction should not be made at Euston, and you could use the BZ2 ticket to exit at Watford Junction.

That's how I understand it anyway. MikeWh is the Oyster/TfL expert and I'm sure he'll correct me if I've misunderstood anything.
That's how I understand it as well. I guess there might be an issue if LM trains left from a platform without Oyster readers.
Well I'd be worried about being overcharged if I were to touch my Oyster card on a reader at Euston, as it seems to happen pretty much every time I go through a National Rail station.
It won't happen f the station s within the zones covered by a travelcard. Do feel free to post details (in another thread maybe) of any issues you've had using Oyster at NR stations. If you've got a journey history scan that would help explain things. If the journey isn't too old you may still be able to get a refund from the helpdesk.
I guess the point is the travelcard is valid for travel from there so they have no reason to charge you, but obviously the potential is there for you to travel well beyond Zone 2, and I can see why they might want to try.
I'm not sure whether it is possible to prevent a valid Oyster opening the gates, but even if it were, sight of the additional ticket would be enough to get you on your way.
Boundary Zone tickets do work the gates at certain London Terminals, such as Marylebone and Euston.
Interesting. Any idea why?
 

RJ

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People used to get angry when I asked to see their Travelcard when buying Boundary Zone tickets as they were not normally asked. In many cases, they were unable to produce one. Plenty of revenue going down the drain as many ticket office clerks are too lazy to perform this check, but then the general attitude is probably that revenue protection isn't their job so they are not required to check.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Interesting. Any idea why?
The general idea is that those tickets are only held as proof of holding a valid Travelcard was supplied when the ticket was sold. Whilst there are flaws to be picked out in this theory which I'd rather not start on in this thread, some TOCs give passengers the benefit of the doubt, or it may just be an oversight. Either way, it's open to and frequently subjected to abuse.
 
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calc7

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I'm not sure about that. Have you a source? There may be investigations as part of a wider operation, but TfL would probably need suspiscion of doughnutting from a TOC first.
I believe it was mentioned in the recent documentary, The Tube

Customers who had found novel ways of exploiting Oyster technicalities to get around paying were being monitored by TfL.

My own example: a customer who has a Zones 1 and 2 travelcard has a morning journey from Chorleywood to Baker Street against their Oyster record every day. However, in the evening there is an incomplete journey from Baker Street. Surprise surprise, the northbound platform at Chorleywood is ungated. Even if they come up against an RPI, they have a validated Oyster card for their journey!

The current problem with with Oyster seasons as I'm sure you're aware, Mike, is that a passenger can hold a validated ticket for the journey if starting within the zones of the season then just elope at the destination outside those zones without touching out.
 

RJ

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I liked the way that The Tube didn't actually explain what that man did in any detail. All they said was he touched in and out at point of origin to avoid the fare. Many people assumed that it was some kind of PAYG workaround. I still maintain the theory that he had a Zone 2-3 Travelcard season and did it to fool the system into thinking he did a SSE at point of origin and incomplete journey at destination, hence evading the Zone 1 -2 fare :p. The only clue given was the seemingly random reference to "someone else" using the card. It set alarm bells ringing when the RPI stated that he should have known that it was not permissible to let someone else use it.

There are actually a few weaknesses in the Oyster system that I have identified with Travelcards in particular, but I'm all about legal loopholes - not fraudulent fare evasion :p
 

island

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I believe it was mentioned in the recent documentary, The Tube

Customers who had found novel ways of exploiting Oyster technicalities to get around paying were being monitored by TfL.

My own example: a customer who has a Zones 1 and 2 travelcard has a morning journey from Chorleywood to Baker Street against their Oyster record every day. However, in the evening there is an incomplete journey from Baker Street. Surprise surprise, the northbound platform at Chorleywood is ungated. Even if they come up against an RPI, they have a validated Oyster card for their journey!

The current problem with with Oyster seasons as I'm sure you're aware, Mike, is that a passenger can hold a validated ticket for the journey if starting within the zones of the season then just elope at the destination outside those zones without touching out.
I do hope they would investigate things like this carefully first. I have a 1-3 annual Travelcard and sometimes travel onwards to somewhere else in the zones in the evening peak, buying a paper ticket with gold card discount to do so because it's cheaper.
 

clagmonster

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I think the idea is that they identify the passenger using CCTV and aim to grip that particular passenger when they have committed the offence. So if you have a boundary zone paper ticket when gripped having been investigated, that will presumably conclude the investigation and no further action will be taken.
 
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