Cottingley Closure?

KINSEY.

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Apologies if this has been posted already. But there is a "Notice of Consultation in relation to the closure of Cottingley Station" in todays Metro.
 

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yorksrob

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That's interesting.

Purely in relation to the White Rose shopping centre station I assume.

I think the whole idea is bonkers. The White Rose shopping centre is there for motorists. It has nothing that a rail user wouldn't find in Leeds.
 

Mcr Warrior

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The present version Cottingley station currently has an annual passenger count of c. 100,000 and "enjoys" an hourly (mostly TPE) local service between Leeds and Huddersfield, together with a handful of Northern workings to/from/via Brighouse.

How far away will the replacement station be exactly and will it see any improvement in service provision?

Presumably if the current Cottingley station doesn't actually close, then an alternative strategy might just be to downgrade the service provision to a token one train each way per day to "encourage" use of the new station.
 

Bletchleyite

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That's interesting.

Purely in relation to the White Rose shopping centre station I assume.

I think the whole idea is bonkers. The White Rose shopping centre is there for motorists. It has nothing that a rail user wouldn't find in Leeds.

More the office park than the station, no?

Where is it proposed to go? By the A643? If so it's just moving it from one end of the village to the other, which would mean as many winners as losers.
 

A0wen

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That's interesting.

Purely in relation to the White Rose shopping centre station I assume.

I think the whole idea is bonkers. The White Rose shopping centre is there for motorists. It has nothing that a rail user wouldn't find in Leeds.

Nothing to do with the office park north of the retail park then ? Google earth screenshot attached for those who don't know the area.

And the fact it might benefit both is a good thing, whereas the current station isn't exactly in a convenient place (unless you happen to live next to it). Is this another of the 'yorksrob' - 'but I use this station / service' examples where you seem to have this amazing ability to use every single threatened or under used station on the network and every train which the stats suggest is under-used but is miraculously full and standing on the days you use it ?
 

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Mcr Warrior

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Looks like the new "White Rose" station will be some 750 metres away from Cottingley station, on the other side of the A643 Elland Road (in the railway direction towards / nearer to Morley).

Seen suggestions of a threefold plus increase in passenger usage, and a twice hourly service provision, in each direction.

Does look, however, to be more awkward to access than the existing Cottingley station for anyone living in the immediate locality.

P.S. Presume that we must have had a previous thread on this when plans were originally outlined in 2017/18 ?
 

Bletchleyite

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Does look, however, to be more awkward to access than the existing Cottingley station for anyone living in the immediate locality.

I think, as per my response to the Marston Vale station consolidation proposals, I would be responding with something like "yes, but on condition of provision of quality, lit and CCTV-covered, foot and cycle access from the nearby villages without the need to go on the road". It does seem there's some undeveloped greenery that could stand such a facility being built on it to solve this issue.
 

yorksrob

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More the office park than the station, no?

Where is it proposed to go? By the A643? If so it's just moving it from one end of the village to the other, which would mean as many winners as losers.

It seems a fairly unremarkable clump of offices. Hardly Canary Wharfe ! I can't see thousands commuting to it personally.

Nothing to do with the office park north of the retail park then ? Google earth screenshot attached for those who don't know the area.

And the fact it might benefit both is a good thing, whereas the current station isn't exactly in a convenient place (unless you happen to live next to it). Is this another of the 'yorksrob' - 'but I use this station / service' examples where you seem to have this amazing ability to use every single threatened or under used station on the network and every train which the stats suggest is under-used but is miraculously full and standing on the days you use it ?

Cottingly is in a residential area, which is surely the point of such stations.
 

swt_passenger

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Aren’t there enough discussions about White Rose station already? Obviously a formal announcement that they intend this closure is news, but I think White Rose is already well covered…
 

Bletchleyite

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It seems a fairly unremarkable clump of offices. Hardly Canary Wharfe ! I can't see thousands commuting to it personally.

At least a few hundred will work there, probably a couple of thousand, plus those working at the shopping park. Of course they commute there, there don't appear to be blocks of flats there for people to live on site!
 

Ianno87

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At least a few hundred will work there, probably a couple of thousand, plus those working at the shopping park. Of course they commute there, there don't appear to be blocks of flats there for people to live on site!

And it looks like expansion of workplaces is planned in what's known as the 'ICON' Development.
 

zwk500

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It seems a fairly unremarkable clump of offices. Hardly Canary Wharfe ! I can't see thousands commuting to it personally.
Which is why a simple 2-platform station on an existing line is a sensible option, rather than a brand new light rail system and extension of a metro line, as was done for Canary Wharf. Looks big enough to get some traffic, and...
Cottingly is in a residential area, which is surely the point of such stations.
Looking on Google Maps, the areas closest to the station do not appear to be particularly densely populated, and a big chunk of the station's useful walking radius is blocked by the motorway. Moving the station a couple of hundred metres further south brings it into useful range of more people, especially if it's accessed off the main road (Elland Rd).
 

Eboordna

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Which is why a simple 2-platform station on an existing line is a sensible option, rather than a brand new light rail system and extension of a metro line, as was done for Canary Wharf. Looks big enough to get some traffic, and...

Looking on Google Maps, the areas closest to the station do not appear to be particularly densely populated, and a big chunk of the station's useful walking radius is blocked by the motorway. Moving the station a couple of hundred metres further south brings it into useful range of more people, especially if it's accessed off the main road (Elland Rd).
It's within 5 minutes walk of thousands of households, both sides of the line, and was very popular with commuters pre-COVID. The main issue was lack of train capacity, meaning people often got left behind with trains leaving packed in like sardines at peak times - this put more people off using it. The new station will be close to White Rose shopping Centre and a business park, but much further from any significant residential properties. On balance, if a decent service was provided, I would suspect both stations would attract similar customer numbers - with those using Cottingley primarily travelling into Leeds, and those using White Rose primarily travelling out from Leeds. I don't see why both can't be kept open, with the LDS-HUD stopper serving one, and the Northern services via Brighouse serving the other, rather than any trains calling at both - the latter currently only stops at Cottingley at peak times.
 

Ianno87

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It's within 5 minutes walk of thousands of households, both sides of the line, and was very popular with commuters pre-COVID. The main issue was lack of train capacity, meaning people often got left behind with trains leaving packed in like sardines at peak times - this put more people off using it. The new station will be close to White Rose shopping Centre and a business park, but much further from any significant residential properties. On balance, if a decent service was provided, I would suspect both stations would attract similar customer numbers - with those using Cottingley primarily travelling into Leeds, and those using White Rose primarily travelling out from Leeds. I don't see why both can't be kept open, with the LDS-HUD stopper serving one, and the Northern services via Brighouse serving the other, rather than any trains calling at both - the latter currently only stops at Cottingley at peak times.

The flip side of the argument is whether Cottingley station is the best use of rail network capacity, generating largely short trips into Leeds for which arguably buses are a more appropriate solution when looking at the transport system as a whole. Providing capacity on rail services for Cottingley passengers (to whom it is clearly very convenient a station to have on your doorstep) is to the detriment of those passengers making longer journeys.

The station is basically a product of the 1980s when there was network capacity for such things.
 

yorksrob

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Which is why a simple 2-platform station on an existing line is a sensible option, rather than a brand new light rail system and extension of a metro line, as was done for Canary Wharf. Looks big enough to get some traffic, and...

Looking on Google Maps, the areas closest to the station do not appear to be particularly densely populated, and a big chunk of the station's useful walking radius is blocked by the motorway. Moving the station a couple of hundred metres further south brings it into useful range of more people, especially if it's accessed off the main road (Elland Rd).

Well, lets see what happens. I'm sceptical but not enough to put in any objections.
 

Bletchleyite

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The flip side of the argument is whether Cottingley station is the best use of rail network capacity, generating largely short trips into Leeds for which arguably buses are a more appropriate solution when looking at the transport system as a whole. Providing capacity on rail services for Cottingley passengers (to whom it is clearly very convenient a station to have on your doorstep) is to the detriment of those passengers making longer journeys.

The station is basically a product of the 1980s when there was network capacity for such things.

Though if you are going down that line of argument there are plenty of stations that should be in the queue for the chopping block first,.
 

Ianno87

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Though if you are going down that line of argument there are plenty of stations that should be in the queue for the chopping block first,.

Rather here the question is "is there an opportunity to use the capacity that Cottingley currently consumes better than today?"
 

Bletchleyite

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Rather here the question is "is there an opportunity to use the capacity that Cottingley currently consumes better than today?"

And the answer I guess "yes, by moving it".

I don't agree about buses though. Other than Merseyrail, Metrolink, LU and Glasgow and Brum suburban lines we use our urban rail very badly. Buses are for short connectional journeys.
 

Ianno87

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And the answer I guess "yes, by moving it".

I don't agree about buses though. Other than Merseyrail, Metrolink, LU and Glasgow and Brum suburban lines we use our urban rail very badly.

Generally because we try and run "metro" and "interurban" trains on the same infrastructure. Cottingley/White Rose would be a much easier problem to solve if they weren't on the Transpennine Main Line.
 

bluenoxid

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The recent pushback of the report regarding NPR is another concern with regards to the future of Cottingley. The Huddersfield line becomes a contender for metro conversion if a brand new corridor is created for the Transpennine corridor (although, I think that the Calder Valley will be chosen instead)

The rail network in West Yorkshire is not assisted by the mix of traffic on the two track railways.
 

Bletchleyite

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Generally because we try and run "metro" and "interurban" trains on the same infrastructure. Cottingley/White Rose would be a much easier problem to solve if they weren't on the Transpennine Main Line.

Plenty of places do that. It is doable provided you don't engage in such stupidity as running short trains on high frequencies on your long distance stuff. TPE should be 4tph at 200m+ and then there would be plenty of space for half hourly, again long, local trains.
 

Ianno87

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Plenty of places do that. It is doable provided you don't engage in such stupidity as running short trains on high frequencies on your long distance stuff. TPE should be 4tph at 200m+ and then there would be plenty of space for half hourly, again long, local trains.

Even at 4tph, getting an all stops local service into a 15 minute window between fasts isn't straightforward (which is really a <9 minute window once headways are taken into account). Even then you'd have to be right behind on departure from Leeds, make at least 5 intermediate stops costing up to 2 minutes each (Cottingley, Morley, Batley, Dewsbury, Ravensthorpe), before the next chance to overtake at Mirfield.
 

YorksLad12

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P.S. Presume that we must have had a previous thread on this when plans were originally outlined in 2017/18 ?

Aren’t there enough discussions about White Rose station already? Obviously a formal announcement that they intend this closure is news, but I think White Rose is already well covered…
There are more than a few references to Cottingley's fate in the related WHite Rose Station thread somewhere else... This is the first reference I've seen to an actual consultation though.

Looking on Google Maps, the areas closest to the station do not appear to be particularly densely populated, and a big chunk of the station's useful walking radius is blocked by the motorway. Moving the station a couple of hundred metres further south brings it into useful range of more people, especially if it's accessed off the main road (Elland Rd).
For those who haven't experienced Cottingley's delights; it's a typical 1960s estate design, a perimeter road with cul-de-sacs off it, not much in the way of parking (originally - they've dug up the grass verges now) and two tower blocks. When you add in the potential and actual passengers from the more recent development just west of the station you'd have to say that Cottingley would be much more popular if more trains actually called there. As noted earlier it is just the Leeds-Huddersfield hourly that calls as there isn't enough room for the Leeds-Dewsbury-Rochdale-Man Vic stopper to call every hour as well. The bus service in the area is adequate but constantly changing.

[Interesting side-fact: Steeton & Silsden Station should have opened first, but Cottingley was/in a Labour constituency and the PTA was solidly Labour so it got the jump.]
 

Bletchleyite

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Even at 4tph, getting an all stops local service into a 15 minute window between fasts isn't straightforward (which is really a <9 minute window once headways are taken into account). Even then you'd have to be right behind on departure from Leeds, make at least 5 intermediate stops costing up to 2 minutes each (Cottingley, Morley, Batley, Dewsbury, Ravensthorpe), before the next chance to overtake at Mirfield.

It's certainly possible because it's exactly what Switzerland and the Netherlands do outside of their largest cities, and Germany too in places.
 

Ianno87

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It's certainly possible because it's exactly what Switzerland and the Netherlands do outside of their largest cities, and Germany too in places.

They either have different infrastructure, or different laws of physics apply.

As it stands, on the presently available infrastructure, a stopping train departing Leeds behind one fast train must get to Mirfield before the next one. No amount of "but other countries" changes that.
 

Eboordna

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There are more than a few references to Cottingley's fate in the related WHite Rose Station thread somewhere else... This is the first reference I've seen to an actual consultation though.


For those who haven't experienced Cottingley's delights; it's a typical 1960s estate design, a perimeter road with cul-de-sacs off it, not much in the way of parking (originally - they've dug up the grass verges now) and two tower blocks. When you add in the potential and actual passengers from the more recent development just west of the station you'd have to say that Cottingley would be much more popular if more trains actually called there. As noted earlier it is just the Leeds-Huddersfield hourly that calls as there isn't enough room for the Leeds-Dewsbury-Rochdale-Man Vic stopper to call every hour as well. The bus service in the area is adequate but constantly changing.

[Interesting side-fact: Steeton & Silsden Station should have opened first, but Cottingley was/in a Labour constituency and the PTA was solidly Labour so it got the jump.]
The "recent development" (which I may know quite a lot about!l) is also expanding, new houses were built around 2 years ago and another phase going up at the moment. In my experience, around 50% of customers come from each side of the railway. There's also plenty of space to expand housing further and the station is a good selling/buying point. The bus journey into the city can be a nightmare at peak times which would end up taking longer than rail commuters from Huddersfield to Leeds at peak times.
 

HSTEd

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As it stands, on the presently available infrastructure, a stopping train departing Leeds behind one fast train must get to Mirfield before the next one. No amount of "but other countries" changes that.

The units used for the stopping servicve are hardly the highest performance ones available.
 

TC60054

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Of course, if we just four-track the entire TransPennine route, then trying to fit stoppers in between fasts becomes much less of a problem....;)
 

Mcr Warrior

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Interesting that closure of the existing station is actually being contemplated here, whereas at other GB stations perhaps more "worthy" (of closure) around the network, this process is deemed to be either too expensive / too onerous and/or not politically expedient. :rolleyes:
 

yorksrob

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There are more than a few references to Cottingley's fate in the related WHite Rose Station thread somewhere else... This is the first reference I've seen to an actual consultation though.


For those who haven't experienced Cottingley's delights; it's a typical 1960s estate design, a perimeter road with cul-de-sacs off it, not much in the way of parking (originally - they've dug up the grass verges now) and two tower blocks. When you add in the potential and actual passengers from the more recent development just west of the station you'd have to say that Cottingley would be much more popular if more trains actually called there. As noted earlier it is just the Leeds-Huddersfield hourly that calls as there isn't enough room for the Leeds-Dewsbury-Rochdale-Man Vic stopper to call every hour as well. The bus service in the area is adequate but constantly changing.

[Interesting side-fact: Steeton & Silsden Station should have opened first, but Cottingley was/in a Labour constituency and the PTA was solidly Labour so it got the jump.]

I was once told that the two blocks of flats were the highest above sea level in Western Europe, although I've no idea how true this is.

My view on the matter is probably coloured by the fact that I worked in Cottingley for a few years. I used to walk up to the WRC on odd lunchtimes and I was never bowled over by potential for a new station.
 

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