Could a large increase in electric car adoption lead to a viable Motorail service rev

[bavvo]

Just wondering about some of the discussions about electric cars generally and their perceived shortfalls (range and refuelling times) as it seems that both could be helped by a revival of the Motorail service. Not only could you take your car over longer distances without range worries, but it could even be charged en route, (at least whilst travelling under the wires).

Motorail in its last years was not particularly successful as the expense wasn't worth it for many once the motorway network became extensive and cars generally more reliable. A shame I think as I would happily pay to be taken up to the highlands rather than do a long motorway slog.

So could motorail make a comeback, or are electric cars likely to have a much longer range in the near future from a step change in battery technology?

 

[HSTEd]

The loading gauge is far far too small for motorail to be succesful.

If you want an example of what a compatible with commercial motorrail loading gauge looks like.... see the Channel Tunnel.

 

[Bald Rick]

No chance.

It does however present an opportunity for long distance rail travel, and car hire companies that are located at or near stations, particularly those stations more than 250 miles from London.

As an aside, car battery range is extending considerably. Some Teslas can get over 300 miles. Meanwhile only today some ultra Chargers were unveiled in Islington, they can fully recharge a car in 30 mins. Whilst this is still rather longer than filling a fuel tank, it is well within the bounds of a service station stop you would need to make on a journey of more than 300 miles.

 

[TimboM]

...Not only could you take your car over longer distances without range worries, but it could even be charged en route, (at least whilst travelling under the wires).

That would be a pretty large ETS load wouldn't it? And assuming there were also ETS-hungry sleeper coaches attached I think you'd struggle to charge cars en route (or at least offer this to all customers when carrying enough cars to make this even remotely viable).

 

[TimboM]

The loading gauge is far far too small for motorail to be succesful.

If you want an example of what a compatible with commercial motorrail loading gauge looks like.... see the Channel Tunnel.

Let's not forget the Caley Sleeper isn't exactly profit making... I don't think this idea will happen by the way, but there is the option the government fund/heavily subsidise it as a political statement (for a relatively limited period at least) to champion/encourage the switch to electric cars.

 

[HSTEd]

That would be a pretty large ETS load wouldn't it? And assuming there were also ETS-hungry sleeper coaches attached I think you'd struggle to charge cars en route (or at least offer this to all customers when carrying enough cars to make this even remotely viable).

240 Cars with say ~30kW chargers (little need to charge faster because even Teslas will charge fully before you disembark them in all likelihood).

That is only 7.2MWe, which is a lot but not beyond the capabilities of 25kV.
With proper power supply provision that is.

A dedicated line coudl do it without breaking a sweat.

 

[xc170]

The loading gauge is far far too small for motorail to be succesful.

If you want an example of what a compatible with commercial motorrail loading gauge looks like.... see the Channel Tunnel.

Appologies if I've missed something, but why would loading gauge be an issue when car transporter trains are a pretty common thing...

 

[theageofthetra]

No chance.

It does however present an opportunity for long distance rail travel, and car hire companies that are located at or near stations, particularly those stations more than 250 miles from London.

As an aside, car battery range is extending considerably. Some Teslas can get over 300 miles. Meanwhile only today some ultra Chargers were unveiled in Islington, they can fully recharge a car in 30 mins. Whilst this is still rather longer than filling a fuel tank, it is well within the bounds of a service station stop you would need to make on a journey of more than 300 miles.

Can't wait until the bill comes in for the three phase supplies that need to installed in every home in the UK to allow these vehicles to become fully charged overnight. Where the electricity will come from is another awkward question.

 

[Bantamzen]

No chance.

It does however present an opportunity for long distance rail travel, and car hire companies that are located at or near stations, particularly those stations more than 250 miles from London.

As an aside, car battery range is extending considerably. Some Teslas can get over 300 miles. Meanwhile only today some ultra Chargers were unveiled in Islington, they can fully recharge a car in 30 mins. Whilst this is still rather longer than filling a fuel tank, it is well within the bounds of a service station stop you would need to make on a journey of more than 300 miles.

Can't wait until the bill comes in for the three phase supplies that need to installed in every home in the UK to allow these vehicles to become fully charged overnight. Where the electricity will come from is another awkward question.

Watching the news last night, one of the main points of discussion was how people would charge their cars at home / work / shops etc. But this is looking at the problem from the wrong angle. Even though we have over 20 years to develop better ranges from batteries, and even though other countries like Norway (I believe) are taking up this policy sooner (2025?), it is very likely that most electric cars are not going to have the range and the infrastructure will not fully be in place to simply swap petrol/diesel for electric. It is a reality we have to face now, not wait until 2040 and panic.

What is going to be needed is change in how many people travel, and public transport is going to be key in all of this. Rather than simply replacing their petrol/diesel car based commute, many people will probably have to rethink how they get to work, go shopping, go on holiday. As Bald Rick rightly says, for the longer journeys rail could play a key part, but not necessarily in transporting people & car. What we could see is the car being used only for travel to a station to be parked and charged, and the main part of the journey be made by train with the possibility of a hire car at the end of the journey if needed. But I would go way beyond just focusing on the long distance journeys, most car journeys are still commutes and could potentially be replaced with public transport for part or all of them.

This is going to be the challenge not just for government but for the traveling public. Instead of being something of the pariah, public transport needs to be at the heart of the policy shift. We will need something that can effectively and efficiently replace a significant proportion of the current car journeys made, not only because of any potential limit on car ranges or infrastructure, but because we need to ensure that demand for electricity doesn't outstrip supply. In short capacity & places served by public transport is going to have to increase, which in itself is going to require significant investment soon. HS2 is a handy starting point, freeing up a lot of capacity along the three main lines going North-South, but more still will be needed. And yes, electrification is absolutely going to have to be central to all this. At the very least all main lines, and most major commuter routes will either have to be wired or at least have plans for being so in place by 2040, or this policy will come under serious fire from car lobby groups.

Now I know that hinting at a major set of new investments will set a few pulses racing and attract the regular questions of who will pay for it. Well the answer is we will, and by we and mean all us taxpayers, companies etc etc. Now this and future governments could lessen the burden by rethinking how much we spend on things like military action in other countries, how we tackle tax avoidance and evasion, unnecessary regulation, overcharging by the private sector in public sector contracts etc etc. It can be done, and might not cause a massive increase in either direct taxation or the cost of travel overall, but it is going to take a series of brave governments and some understanding of the need to invest for years to come by the general public. The next few years will define if this will be possible. And if it proves not to be then we will find the policy failing, our dependence on an imported commodity, much of which comes from highly unstable parts of the world will remain & even increase, leaving us ever more exposed to the risks of being hit by events we have little or no say in, not to mention being at risk from the ill health that could be caused by ever growing levels of pollution. Basically this policy has to work somehow.

 

[broadgage]

240 Cars with say ~30kW chargers (little need to charge faster because even Teslas will charge fully before you disembark them in all likelihood).

That is only 7.2MWe, which is a lot but not beyond the capabilities of 25kV.
With proper power supply provision that is.

A dedicated line coudl do it without breaking a sweat.

I doubt that the load would be that much.
240 cars on a train ! no way, it would be too long and too heavy. 40 cars might be more realistic, and at say 10KW each would be far more manageable.
Remember that most cars wont need a full charge, they should be still fairly well charged after being driven to the station.
Fast charging not needed during a long, probably overnight journey during which a slow charge would suffice.

 

[The Ham]

Once cars get to 210-280 miles range that would mean that you would have to stop every 3 to 4 hours of you average 70mph (in reality most journeys are slower than that). Now I don't know about you but during the day I want to eat at about that frequency (and potentially other useful functions), so a forced break at that frequency wouldn't be that bad a thing.

Yes 30 minutes might be longer than most people would normally want to take, but at most services by the time you've parked up used the facilities and got back to the car you're looking at about 10-15 minutes anyway. As such you'd just have to have a coffee and you'd be not far off the 30 minutes to get to 80% (168-240 miles extra)

Also places like Plymouth, Manchester, Leeds and Liverpool all fall within 200 miles of London, meaning that you would have to be traveling further than that to need to have a forced break. With one 30 minute break you could get between London and Glasgow (345 miles) and still have range to spare 210+168= 378 miles to allow for not being able to have the break at the perfect spot. Even if you allow a 10% reduction (for traffic and other things that reduce your range) you still get to 340 which is still enough to get to Edinburgh (332 miles) without needing a second break.

That's based on a 210 mile range and probably covers the majority of driving that the vast majority of people would do.

As such would Moto Rail come back, probably not. Just because most journeys would still be achievable with a few short breaks.

If you opted for a cheaper car with a range of say 100 miles then you would then struggle to make long distance journeys. However chances are you wood be making much fewer such journeys and so the extra cost of travel by train and then hiring a car or using taxis wouldn't be that much extra cost over the year. Although I wouldn't be surprised if in time it wasn't possible to hire batteries for range extending for cars with a low range battery.

 

[broadgage]

Can't wait until the bill comes in for the three phase supplies that need to installed in every home in the UK to allow these vehicles to become fully charged overnight. Where the electricity will come from is another awkward question.

Why would 3 phase supplies be needed domestically ? Most electric cars will charge overnight from a single phase 32 amp circuit. Many smaller and more affordable ones will charge overnight from a smaller supply than that.

Providing that charging during the evening peak is discouraged by tariffs or other means, then there is plenty of spare capacity overnight.

And remember that not every car will need a full charge every night, petrol supplies would not permit of fully refilling every vehicle tank every day either.

 

[Bald Rick]

Can't wait until the bill comes in for the three phase supplies that need to installed in every home in the UK to allow these vehicles to become fully charged overnight. Where the electricity will come from is another awkward question.

That's interesting. My car charger comes off my domestic single phase supply. Whilst I don't have a tesla, it could easily charge one overnight.

 

[DarloRich]

So could motorail make a comeback, or are electric cars likely to have a much longer range in the near future from a step change in battery technology?

no - it wont be making a comeback. Surely at destination hire is easier.

 

[Bald Rick]

My opinion on some of the comments:

1) this will not signify a widespread shift to public transport. Indeed quite possibly the opposite, see below.
2) there will need to be some changes to local electricity supply networks, principally where there is dense residential development (ie high rise) with lots of parking. They will need new local supplies to the car parks.
3) however given that most cars will be charged overnight, there won't need to be wholesale changes to the wider electricity network. The average driver might do 10000 miles a year. That's about 40 charges a year. Or rather less than once a week. Well within the capability of existing distribution and the future generation network.

The main issues are:

1) the Goverment will lose a significant chunk of the approx £30bn a year it takes in fuel duty. Not very much of it will be replaced with extra VAT on electricity.
2) the cost / time equation will shift significantly for many trips, with running costs of electric cars typically 80% lower than diesel. People who use the train because it is marginally cheaper than driving may well switch to road
3) the environmental advantages of (some) public transport evaporate. It will, for example, remove all the air quality benefits from rail scheme business cases. Don't expect that to help the case for line reopenings.
4) taking 1 and 2 together, I would expect this to be accompanied by some form of distance based road user charging. Otherwise traffic will grow considerably, and Goverment revenue will fall considerably.

All told, this will leave the rail industry in a place where its principal advantage over road is time, further emphasising the point that what rail is good at is shifting large volumes of people or goods, relatively quickly compared to road. Expect the rural railway to struggle.


Perhaps we should have a different thread on electric cars rather than hijacking this Motorrail thread.

 

[edwin_m]

The government needs to move quite quickly on taxes to replace the future loss of revenue from fuel duty. The maintenance bill for roads won't go away, and could well increase as many electric cars are heavier than their petrol equivalents and may also do more mileage.

On emissions, recent studies show that tyres and brakes also produce particulates similar to those for diesel. Electric cars and indeed electric trains will eliminate most of the particulates from braking by using regenerative rather than friction brakes, but tyre emissions would be more from a heavier car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So could motorail make a comeback, or are electric cars likely to have a much longer range in the near future from a step change in battery technology?

More likely you'll hire at your destination.

 

[Harpers Tate]

What is going to be needed is change in how many people travel, and public transport is going to be key in all of this. Rather than simply replacing their petrol/diesel car based commute, many people will probably have to rethink how they get to work, go shopping, go on holiday......

I think, in a nutshell, that is one of the main misapprehensions surrounding EVs.

I'm talking about a significant proportion of drivers, homes and journeys - NOT all of them, but many.

I presently have an EV on order. It has a theoretical real-world range of ~130 miles. I will be keeping my ancient diesel as well, but fully expect it won't get much use. Indeed I expect that it won't be all that long before I can indeed say goodbye to it. In terms of using an EV as the main transport:

1: You charge at home - as long as you have off-street parking (which many do). So you always start out each morning "full". Yes - there will be some homes where this isn't practical, of course. But for many, it's going to be a total non-issue.
2: The vast majority of vehicles (of all types) will NOT travel anything like 130 miles before they are back home, most of the time. In the 2011 census the average distance for a commute was 15km (~ 10 miles). It may be longer, but not even close to 65 miles each way. Shopping - 65 miles each way? Not very often. This gives no consideration to workplace charging or charge points at retail locations. Most of the time - whilst we might choose to use them, in fact we won't need to do so.
Which, of the list, just leaves holiday travel.
3: Roadside charging infrastructure in the UK is patchy in places, and stupidly complex to use. However, it seems likely to this observer that this will improve. I look forward to the day I can reliably drive up to a charge point, swipe my contactless bank credit/debit card, and "fill up", without having to use any app or be a member of a plethora of different, mutually incompatible schemes. Nevertheless, I am following with interest the experiences of someone who reports, regularly, on another forum about his travels in a 130-mile EV. He lives on the M25 somewhere and has travelled to Scotland and Northern Ireland as part of his work. And that is with the situation as it is now.
4: Next year's cars will go further between charges. And the year after that.......etc.
5: It only takes 20-30 minutes to charge an EV to 80% capacity with present battery technology. A 20-30 minute stop at a services, every couple of hundred miles, is actually probably a good idea that all motorists should adopt anyway.

So in fact I see no necessary impact on public transport for the COMMUTE. Of all journeys, that one is arguably the one that is least likely to be affected by EV range. That, and shopping. It's longer trips that will be affected - and even then, quite possibly not by much.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think, in a nutshell, that is one of the main misapprehensions surrounding EVs.

I'm talking about a significant proportion of drivers, homes and journeys - NOT all of them, but many.

I presently have an EV on order. It has a theoretical real-world range of ~130 miles. I will be keeping my ancient diesel as well, but fully expect it won't get much use. Indeed I expect that it won't be all that long before I can indeed say goodbye to it. In terms of using an EV as the main transport:

1: You charge at home - as long as you have off-street parking (which many do). So you always start out each morning "full". Yes - there will be some homes where this isn't practical, of course. But for many, it's going to be a total non-issue.
2: The vast majority of vehicles (of all types) will NOT travel anything like 130 miles before they are back home, most of the time. In the 2011 census the average distance for a commute was 15km (~ 10 miles). It may be longer, but not even close to 65 miles each way. Shopping - 65 miles each way? Not very often. This gives no consideration to workplace charging or charge points at retail locations. Most of the time - whilst we might choose to use them, in fact we won't need to do so.
Which, of the list, just leaves holiday travel.
3: Roadside charging infrastructure in the UK is patchy in places, and stupidly complex to use. However, it seems likely to this observer that this will improve. I look forward to the day I can reliably drive up to a charge point, swipe my contactless bank credit/debit card, and "fill up", without having to use any app or be a member of a plethora of different, mutually incompatible schemes. Nevertheless, I am following with interest the experiences of someone who reports, regularly, on another forum about his travels in a 130-mile EV. He lives on the M25 somewhere and has travelled to Scotland and Northern Ireland as part of his work. And that is with the situation as it is now.
4: Next year's cars will go further between charges. And the year after that.......etc.
5: It only takes 20-30 minutes to charge an EV to 80% capacity with present battery technology. A 20-30 minute stop at a services, every couple of hundred miles, is actually probably a good idea that all motorists should adopt anyway.

So in fact I see no necessary impact on public transport for the COMMUTE. Of all journeys, that one is arguably the one that is least likely to be affected by EV range. That, and shopping. It's longer trips that will be affected - and even then, quite possibly not by much.

To look at some of those points:

1 - Charging at home. Whilst large proportions of people would be able to utilise domestic circuits, increasingly people are living in apartments / flats etc where domestic or even on-street charging will not be possible. These people will therefore be reliant on other means of charging, which the infrastructure currently cannot provide. We do of course have 20+ years to sort that out, but it is still a huge undertaking.

2. Commuting distances on average may well be below the range of EVs, but that doesn't take into account any drain on the batteries whilst millions sit in ever growing traffic congestion around the country. That combined with the above might well see some people reassessing their travel arrangements.

3. If it is say charging time is around 30 mins, this may be fine for a long distance journey where breaks are expected, but if the people highlighted at 1 need to factor that in at least 1 or 2 times a week, this again will impact on planning the best way to commute.

4. I'm sure the tech will leap forward as demand grows, but the issue charging will remain. A car may well go further, but if it takes longer to charge then this has a flattening effect of benefits particularly where EVs cannot be charged overnight. And of course there is the other little issue here, generation of all the extra electricity required and meeting demand at points during the day.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for cleaner forms on transport. But this cannot just be a swap from petrol/diesel to electric / hybrid and carry on as normal. EVs present their own challenges in energy use & demand, as well as infrastructural. Not all these problems will be resolved by 2040 or beyond, and so we as a country need to take this opportunity to review how we travel. There is lots of scope to be able to roll out EVs to be used in conjunction with public transport. Otherwise the roads will continue to fill up, the price of running an EV will increase as a result and there will be more demand on a power generation infrastructure already trying to cope with all our other increased demands.

 

[matt_world2004]

Hypothetically speaking electric motorail services would be more appealing if you could charge your car on train

 

[Western Lord]

The range of an electric car will be seriously reduced when you get up on a cold, wet winter's morning and need lights, windscreen wipers, heating and a demisting fan. Never mind the air conditioning, electrically heated windscreens/rear windows, electrically heated seats and in car entertainment systems that many have got used to. In an ICE car you get all of the electricity to run this stuff from the engine driven alternator, in a electric car it would all have to come from the battery.

 

[colchesterken]

It seems mad to me taking the easy option!..Go for the car driver
They have put on hold electrifying Wales and MML and are building Bi modes with a lifespan of 40 yrs, and fitting diesel engines to Cl 319 s and D stock
I would have thought a 3000hp loco will put out more pollution than a good few of my 1.6 Focus
Then what about the HGV came along the M20 yesterday HGV s all the way

 

[Bletchleyite]

The range of an electric car will be seriously reduced when you get up on a cold, wet winter's morning and need lights, windscreen wipers, heating and a demisting fan. Never mind the air conditioning, electrically heated windscreens/rear windows, electrically heated seats and in car entertainment systems that many have got used to. In an ICE car you get all of the electricity to run this stuff from the engine driven alternator, in a electric car it would all have to come from the battery.

LED lights use almost no power. The fan not a huge amount. Aircon is not really necessary, though you could use "regen" to run it.

Heating is more difficult - the MK electric buses have a diesel heater as a result. Combustion heating may remain necessary for a bit, alternatively some kind of "hot bricks" storage heating heated up while on charge might work. Easier to vent it outside if you don't want it than a domestic one.

 

[PeterC]

The range of an electric car will be seriously reduced when you get up on a cold, wet winter's morning and need lights, windscreen wipers, heating and a demisting fan. Never mind the air conditioning, electrically heated windscreens/rear windows, electrically heated seats and in car entertainment systems that many have got used to. In an ICE car you get all of the electricity to run this stuff from the engine driven alternator, in a electric car it would all have to come from the battery.

The entertainment system could be powered by standard consumer batteries but that might get owners wondering why they need an expensive proprietory battery for the drive system when the range starts to drop.

 

[GarethC]

The range of an electric car will be seriously reduced when you get up on a cold, wet winter's morning and need lights, windscreen wipers, heating and a demisting fan. Never mind the air conditioning, electrically heated windscreens/rear windows, electrically heated seats and in car entertainment systems that many have got used to. In an ICE car you get all of the electricity to run this stuff from the engine driven alternator, in a electric car it would all have to come from the battery.

I raised this issue with my friend when she got a Nissan Leaf - to which she pointed out that the car gets plugged in overnight and she sets it up to de-ice or cool down whilst attached to the mains via an app on her phone (much to the annoyance of her husband who has to scrape his car!) either on timer or manually.

Quite a useful feature though only works if you're plugged in!

As other posters have commented it's the 'one off' longer leisure journey which is currently more difficult with an EV. With various developments I wonder whether we are more likely to see more accessible 'spot hire' cars at stations (a bit like Bike and Go) than a return to the MotoRail services of old.

Gareth

 

[coppercapped]

Why would 3 phase supplies be needed domestically ? Most electric cars will charge overnight from a single phase 32 amp circuit. Many smaller and more affordable ones will charge overnight from a smaller supply than that.

Providing that charging during the evening peak is discouraged by tariffs or other means, then there is plenty of spare capacity overnight.

And remember that not every car will need a full charge every night, petrol supplies would not permit of fully refilling every vehicle tank every day either.

Is not the local distribution network one of the key pinch points? Each house has a 32A single phase feed, but AIUI the local networks under roads are sized to assume that not all the houses are pulling such a current at the same time. If many households are drawing anything like that at the same time, then the local networks will have to be upgraded.

 

[HSTEd]

Appologies if I've missed something, but why would loading gauge be an issue when car transporter trains are a pretty common thing...

You won't be able to carry enough cars or load them fast enough to be commercially viable. You need to be able to have ordinary people drive cars on and off.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Actually the range of an EV does descrease in cold weather, but it's not substantially because of (what the Railway calls) "hotel services". It's because the charge and (importantly) discharge characteristics of Li-Ion cells is less efficient when they are cold.

Putting the Climate Control on in the car I have ordered reduces its range by about 5 miles. Trivial.

In any case - I repeat: the huge, huge, huge majority usage of cars in this country never or hardly ever involves a one-day trip from home back to home anything like approaching the 130 mile real world range of "my" car. It's highly rare for a commute or shopping trip. So in the real world, the range is going to be a (guess) 90% non-issue.

 

[Western Lord]

I raised this issue with my friend when she got a Nissan Leaf - to which she pointed out that the car gets plugged in overnight and she sets it up to de-ice or cool down whilst attached to the mains via an app on her phone (much to the annoyance of her husband who has to scrape his car!) either on timer or manually.

Quite a useful feature though only works if you're plugged in!

As other posters have commented it's the 'one off' longer leisure journey which is currently more difficult with an EV. With various developments I wonder whether we are more likely to see more accessible 'spot hire' cars at stations (a bit like Bike and Go) than a return to the MotoRail services of old.

Gareth

If you are taking a family holiday by car, one of the great attractions is that you can load up and set off direct to your destination. While you are away you will probably acquire other stuff which just gets thrown into the car and you can sort it all out at your leisure when you get back. You can't do that with a train/hire car scenario.

 

[HSTEd]

But people don't want to keep a second car for the annual holiday, neither do they want to hire a car and get hit by the charges levied for anything and everything by the car hire industry - which has a very bad reputation