Could class 442s ever go back to SWT?

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by 387star, 25 May 2015.

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  1. 387star

    387star Established Member

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    Quick question has their return to SWT been ruled out yet?
     
  2. SpacePhoenix

    SpacePhoenix Established Member

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    Why would they want them back when they've got class 444s?:rolleyes:
     
  3. Smudger105e

    Smudger105e Established Member

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    I don't think that answers the OPS question... [emoji52]
     
  4. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    Short answer, nothing official.

    Longer answer, it is unlikely as future rolling stock is more likely to need to be able to utilise OHLE and that the 442's would be a micro fleet which would likely need their own depot (I.e. no space at Wimbledon and likely incompatible with being maintained with the 444's and 450's or unable to be maintained where the 158's and 159's are). Also SWT's are more nervous about using older stock bearing in mind the problems they've had recently.

    For clarification that is not a no, but I would have thought that there would be other ways of enlarging the fleet which would be more cost effective.
     
  5. Juniper Driver

    Juniper Driver Established Member

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    Absolutely no rumour of this and probably pretty pointless as the 707s will be here in just under two years.Plus we have the 456's and the 459's to free up the desiro's.Probably no chance.Weren't they originally based at Bournemouth anyway?
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  6. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    There would have to be a good reason- and there isn't one. Yes, people (rightly?) complain about 450s to Portsmouth etc- with 2+2 seating they'd be much better but would obviously have many less seats- but that alone isn't enough. As it is, the 707s will put the 458/5s onto the Reading trains, freeing up the 450s to all be on SWML services.
     
  7. Robbies

    Robbies Established Member

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    As others have said I cannot see the 442's going back to SWT with the class 707's arriving within the next two years, which would free up the 450's to move to the SWML services.

    I also cannot see the Portsmouth services getting any class 444's via the Guildford route, yes perhaps keeping the class 444's via the Eastleigh route, but it is more likely the 444's will provide the services to Bournemouth and Weymouth as they do now.

    The arrival of the class 707's I suspect will also mean that a class 450, would be able to be used on the services to Lymington instead of the class 158/159's used now?
     
  8. SpacePhoenix

    SpacePhoenix Established Member

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    I think they were, given how long it's been since they left SWT I would imagine that some of the equipment specific to maintaining 442s would have been removed

    Possibly all 444s on Weymouth-Waterloo (if the juice rail can handle it, 1 an hour to Weymouth being 10-car), with all the 450s to Portsmouth Harbour-Waterloo routes (remember reading somewhere that someone - might have been the dft - wanted as many seats as possible on that route), with either a 450 or 707 on the Lymington branch
     
  9. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Member

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    It depends. For example most of the off peak services on the Portsmouth line at 4 or 5 during the day and often very crowded, so the extra stock freed up by the 707s may strengthen those services.

    That said there is always going to be demand for more trains on the SWT lines. It would not surprise me if they get another lease of life.

    If I were honest, I would rather do the trip to Weymouth in a 442 than a 444.
     
  10. CosherB

    CosherB Established Member

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    Here we go again ...... thought it had been a while since we'd discussed the 442's! :roll:

    No, SWT will not have the 442's back. Ever.
     
  11. physics34

    physics34 Established Member

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    they probably should have stayed where they were and the 460s should also have stayed on the gatwicks, maybe supplimented by some 377s.

    Maybe the big stock reshuffle currently occurring would have been a bit different.

    Both refurbishments/reformations seem to be a big waste of money.

    442s were perfect for poole/weymouth services with few stops. 444 uncomfortable in comparasion but that seems to be the in thing these days. Each new generation of new stock seems to be of lower quality than the last.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  12. superalbs

    superalbs Member

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    With discussion of electrifying Exeter-Waterloo, maybe they will have a use with SWT after all!
     
  13. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    More rolling stock was required in order to extend the Gatwick Express service to Brighton (to justify paths out of London), the Class 442 fleet was going spare on account of the considerable difference in leasing cost compared to the abomination that was at the time, the Class 458.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    If we assume that they are indeed being considered, it depends how far they can go before hitting any OHLE conversion.
     
    Last edited: 25 May 2015
  14. LeeLivery

    LeeLivery Member

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    Probably a crazy question, but could the 442s be reformed - say get rid of the driving cars and lengthened to 7 cars, then be loco hauled to increase capacity to Exeter or on another route somewhere? Just for the short term. Not saying they should be, just wondering...
     
  15. physics34

    physics34 Established Member

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    yeh i mentioned that 377s couldve been used to suppliment 460s especially on the peak extended services.

    The cost of leasing etc etc is just a joke full stop. Its a hinderence not a help.
     
  16. cjmillsnun

    cjmillsnun Established Member

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    Exeter - Waterloo will be AC/DC, as will Weymouth - Waterloo, both will need dual voltage trains, so 442s would be useless. It is likely that there would be new stock to replace the 158/9s
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Why get rid of the driving cars? They have corridor connections. To lose weight it would be better to get rid of the motor cars if they are going to be loco hauled. They could then be loco hauled with a 73 in push pull. So yes, in theory it could be done. But practically, it would be better to turn them into razorblades.
     
  17. hassaanhc

    hassaanhc Established Member

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    Yet again you are clouded by nostalgia <( :roll:.
    The 444 Desiros are smoother, quieter, faster, have larger doors, lower step at the doors, and are more accessible in several ways.
    Seats you'll never have consensus on, seats that are overly soft cause my back pain to flare up. The 444 and 450/455 ones are perfect.
     
  18. 387star

    387star Established Member

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    Weren't the 442s criticised for having sloping seats that were not ideal for posture?

    Clearly the compartments and bar had had their day but the ride quality is fantastic
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Do you find fgw 158 seats comfortable?
     
  19. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Additional rolling stock was needed, there weren't enough Electrostars on order at the time.
     
  20. hassaanhc

    hassaanhc Established Member

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    Never been on those.
     
  21. AM9

    AM9 Established Member

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    They are life expired. The motor cars are beset with mechanical, structural and electrical issues. The posture of the seats are not up to modern outer suburban standards and they fall far short of the accessability requirements post 2020.
    They are of an earlier age, good in their day (1990-2000) but like all the MKIIIs will be soon, something of a railway anachronism.
    This perennial thread subject may disappear when they are rendered down to scrap.
     
  22. BananaRepublic

    BananaRepublic Member

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    Some very good reasons given why the 442's will not be returning to the SWML.
    Had they fitted the modern day criteria and still been fit for purpose, they would have been a useful addition in the absence of the ability to order more 444's.

    It's more trains of this class (444's) that are desperately needed on the division, as highlighted by the controversial use of 450's on the Portsmouth services and less well publicised, the use of 450's as substitutes or cover for 444's on some other services.

    There was good reason why the 442's were originally taken off the SWML by SWT all those years ago, but it left a yawning gap that has never been properly filled. The availability of extra 450's, made possible by the arrival of the 707's, is not really solving the problem properly either.

    Sadly, I can't see any suitable trains being ordered, unless it's on the back of a future order for a similar type of modern EMU for the London - Norwich line. That might be a long way off?
     
  23. hassaanhc

    hassaanhc Established Member

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    Assuming it hasn't changed with the current timetable, weekdays the 1005 Waterloo to Weymouth and 1420 Weymouth to Waterloo are booked 8.450 throughout. The 1905 Waterloo to Weymouth was a 444+450 hybrid and probably still is. Many of the Waterloo to Poole stoppers (only to Brockenhurst some hours) are booked 450s.

    Personally I'm someone who thinks there is nothing wrong with 450s to Portsmouth :idea:.
     
  24. Juniper Driver

    Juniper Driver Established Member

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    Forget about loco hauled,that was for the olden days.EMU's are far more simpler.We have more chance of steam making a comeback.(almost)
     
  25. SpacePhoenix

    SpacePhoenix Established Member

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    Is there enough 444s that when the 707s start to come online that as stock gets shifted around the routes, absolutely every last service on the Weymouth-Waterloo route could be a 444?
     
  26. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    It has never been suggested anywhere, so why would it need to be ruled out?

    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---

    Of course there are, there are 45 x 444s, more than enough to make the the Weymouth route 100% 444. They could do it now if they chose, by reducing the number of 444s used on other routes.

    But why would they need to?
     
    Last edited: 26 May 2015
  27. Steve14

    Steve14 Member

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    Apparently, they are being assessed to potentially work on the TPE routes
     
  28. Juniper Driver

    Juniper Driver Established Member

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    24x442 used to manage it fine.
     
  29. BananaRepublic

    BananaRepublic Member

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    It's appalling that 2x 450 are being used for Waterloo to Weymouth services.
    It's not what they were ordered or intended for either.
    There are simply not enough 444's. Never mind booked diagrams, there are 5 car 444's turning up on 10 car services at times, with the resulting crush conditions.
    The last trip I did from SOA up to WAT a few weeks ago on a Saturday morning, was short formed as a single 5 car 444. There was a big crowd trying to get on, only to find nearly all seats were already occupied, meaning lots of standing passengers. Next stop Winchester, where more joined the train, resulting in the aisle being full end to end of people standing. All the way to WAT too. These used to be 2x 444's.

    At the same time, 444's are used on the all stopping local service between SOU to Poole. Crazy!
     
  30. Erniescooper

    Erniescooper Member

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    Despite the rush here to put them in the bin a Class 442 and Class 68 push-pull combination is being taken very seriously for the Trans Pennine franchise.
     
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