Could electrification via Dundee see the diversion of more services via Stirling?

[Blindtraveler]

Moderator note: Split from

Dunblane - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen electrification

I think this is a significant enough development to deserve a thread of its own. A short while ago Marty82 posted, in the thread "Potential rail improvements around Aberdeen and North East Scotland", this link to a planning application by Network Rail to Aberdeen City Council...

www.railforums.co.uk

Assuming this happens in the next 5 or 10 years this will be the end of intercity long-distance stuff travelling through Fife

Everything will run on the juice via Stirling from Edinburgh in future I suspect.

 

[59CosG95]

Assuming this happens in the next 5 or 10 years this will be the end of intercity long-distance stuff travelling through Fife

Everything will run on the juice via Stirling from Edinburgh in future I suspect.

I dunno - there might be a capacity constraint over the Tay Viaducts in Perth, which is still single track.

 

[Falcon1200]

Assuming this happens in the next 5 or 10 years this will be the end of intercity long-distance stuff travelling through Fife

As well as the capacity issue at Perth (and elsewhere) the journey time penalty would surely be unacceptable, plus a service between Edinburgh and Dundee via Fife would still have to run anyway.

 

[Falcon1200]

Barnhill Jcn just the other side of the Tay Viaduct is getting renewed soon with a speed increase on a faster turnout, along with some associated curve works I understand.

Which is a Good Thing, but which doesn't greatly alter the time penalty of running Edinburgh-Dundee via Stirling and Perth rather than via Fife of around 30 minutes, which will never be acceptable.

 

[Davester50]

Which is a Good Thing, but which doesn't greatly alter the time penalty of running Edinburgh-Dundee via Stirling and Perth rather than via Fife of around 30 minutes, which will never be acceptable.

It may work with extended electric local services from Dunblane, but not as a replacement for current slower Angus/Dundee to Edinburgh trains.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Everything will run on the juice via Stirling from Edinburgh in future I suspect.

Absolute nonsense.
Edinburgh to Dundee via Fife - 60 miles
via Stirling 90 miles.

 

[Clansman]

Dundee to Haymarket via Kirkcaldy can be done in 55 minutes under the current timetable. No amount of wires is going to off-set that via Stirling, not even after Perth has been wired and the layout rationalised for higher approach/departure speeds.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Dundee to Haymarket via Kirkcaldy can be done in 55 minutes under the current timetable. No amount of wires is going to off-set that via Stirling, not even after Perth has been wired and the layout rationalised for higher approach/departure speeds.

Worth noting Kirkcaldy is larger than either Stirling or Perth.
Leuchars is a busy station with student and tourist traffic for St Andrews with many travelling to/from stations south of Edinburgh.

 

[Class 170101]

Worth noting Kirkcaldy is larger than either Stirling or Perth.

Though that didn't discourage Scotrail from removing Inverness services via Fife and routing them via Stirling.

 

[Clansman]

Though that didn't discourage Scotrail from removing Inverness services via Fife and routing them via Stirling.

Edinburgh to Perth via Stirling has the same journey time as via Fife which makes it easier for ScotRail to do this to adapt to levels of demand. Not a chance they would do the same with Aberdeen services because the journey time penalty alone isn't worth it in any case.

 

[Tobbes]

Of course, you could always rebuild and electrify the Glenfarg line and that would presumably be quicker than either...

 

[Clansman]

Of course, you could always rebuild and electrify the Glenfarg line and that would presumably be quicker than either...

That would still be longer than the fastest journey time via Fife by around 10 minutes.

Perth to Dundee is 20 minutes

Perth to Edinburgh is 80 minutes (both via Stirling and via Fife) but can be done with a call at Stirling in 60 as the sleeper proves.

Perth to Edinburgh via Glenfarg would be around 45 minutes.

The fastest Dundee to Edinburgh service takes around 55 minutes.

The only way you are getting to Dundee quicker would be:

a) build the Glenfarg line with a chord across the Tay from Bridge of Earn to St Madoes and byassing Perth

b) HSR

c) Speed upgrades in Fife by upgrading existing infrastructure (Kinghorn tunnel), track realignments, Inverkeithing to Cowdenbeath chord (Dunfermline bypass)

 

[Tobbes]

That would still be longer than the fastest journey time via Fife by around 10 minutes.

Perth to Dundee is 20 minutes

Perth to Edinburgh is 80 minutes (both via Stirling and via Fife) but can be done with a call at Stirling in 60 as the sleeper proves.

Perth to Edinburgh via Glenfarg would be around 45 minutes.

The fastest Dundee to Edinburgh service takes around 55 minutes.

The only way you are getting to Dundee quicker would be:

a) build the Glenfarg line with a chord across the Tay from Bridge of Earn to St Madoes and byassing Perth

b) HSR

c) Speed upgrades in Fife by upgrading existing infrastructure (Kinghorn tunnel), track realignments, Inverkeithing to Cowdenbeath chord (Dunfermline bypass)

Very interesting - thanks very much @Clansman . If we were looking at Edinburgh - Aberdeen, is there a significant time saving if you were to reinstate Glenfarg and then Stanley Junction via Forfar?

 

[snowball]

Dunfermline is Scotland's representative in the list of new cities announced this morning. Presumably all the publicity about Scotland's Seven Cities and I7C will have to change, and emphasis on the route from Edinburgh north via Fife will increase.

 

[Western Lord]

Dunfermline is Scotland's representative in the list of new cities announced this morning. Presumably all the publicity about Scotland's Seven Cities and I7C will have to change, and emphasis on the route from Edinburgh north via Fife will increase.

I wonder if SNP Rail was consulted over this. But no problem, a couple of line re-openings and trains can run Glasgow-Stirling-Dunfermline-Perth and beyond!

 

[Kite159]

Dunfermline is Scotland's representative in the list of new cities announced this morning. Presumably all the publicity about Scotland's Seven Cities and I7C will have to change, and emphasis on the route from Edinburgh north via Fife will increase.

They will probably route some of the Edinburgh - Aberdeen trains via Dunfermline and rebrand them as Inter8City lol

 

[Clansman]

If we were looking at Edinburgh - Aberdeen, is there a significant time saving if you were to reinstate Glenfarg and then Stanley Junction via Forfar?

I highly doubt it unless there is new alignments to allow higher speeds. Glenfarg and a cross Tay chord is your best bet when it comes to new built lines. But more efficient use of spending would be track realignments in Fife, electrification, or enhancements north of Dundee.

When both lines did exist, the journey from Perth to Edinburgh used to be faster than what it is now yet Aberdeen services still went via Fife and Leuchars. It is the most direct route geographically after all.

You might find this thread of interest; https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-forfar-line-through-strathmore-would-it-work.130535/page-2.

 

[Tobbes]

I highly doubt it unless there is new alignments to allow higher speeds. Glenfarg and a cross Tay chord is your best bet when it comes to new built lines. But more efficient use of spending would be track realignments in Fife, electrification, or enhancements north of Dundee.

When both lines did exist, the journey from Perth to Edinburgh used to be faster than what it is now yet Aberdeen services still went via Fife and Leuchars. It is the most direct route geographically after all.

You might find this thread of interest; https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-forfar-line-through-strathmore-would-it-work.130535/page-2.

Thanks, that's very helpful. Have a lovely afternoon!