Could Manchester Victoria ever be expanded in future?

[cle]

Sending the extras to Rochdale and Stalybridge is a good thing - it encourages a more 'metro' type service (which should be built upon for Ashton too) - but also if frequent enough, the Calder services needn't stop before Rochdale, accelerating those ones. Wires to Rochdale could be a logical next move after Stalybridge.

Plus due to the platform situation, it makes a lot more sense and gets diesels moved out of the covered part of the station quick.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Dear Mr Hunter - please visit Specsavers.

To do so you may need to use those flexible appendages hanging from your abdomen which may also be useful if making your way from a concourse to a further platform as occurs in many locations.

Very drole. But given your apparent unwillingness, at least based on your musings here, to accept that the world has moved on from the 1950s I'm surprised you've even heard of Specsavers.

the main concourse of the arena is above platforms 3-5 while the oval walkway around the auditorium is above 6. The other side of the wall will be the auditorium seating. Allegedly there are platforms behind the wall but no doubt these will be buried as part of the walls and foundations of the structure

*** Edit ***

so unless the area can be dug out and underpinned in which case one platform may be possible, the only way to expand the station is to remove the arena

I think the suggestion of a couple of west-facing bays was immediately west of the station where the trackbed "disappears" into the Arena - Deal Street junction is further away. This may be just possible for a 100m platform, although the gap between two viaducts might have to be infilled/bridged to provide the platforms themselves. I imagine the west end bridge could be replaced by a longer one with lifts to provide access to these platforms by walking to the ends of the existing platforms. It wouldn't be hugely convenient but no worse than the two platforms added at Marylebone or the one at Doncaster.

The question is whether this would be a net benefit. Extending trains to Stalybridge and Rochdale would not be necessary if they could terminate in these platforms so there would be fewer trains needed and less mileage. But on the other hand the Stalybridge and Rochdale lines would have a poorer service.

It seems to be fairly well known that the wall behind platform 6 is non-structural suggesting that additional trackage under the arena might be possible. But even if that were true it would likely be only one track and a bay at that as the eastern exit from such a track is blocked by the arena car park. So a hypothetical platform 7 would provide a reversing facility for trains from/to the Salford direction. Problem being of course that reversals at multi-track stations by their nature generate additional conflicting movements which would quickly reduce any capacity gain. The current plan to send as many trains from the Salford direction through to points east makes much better use of capacity at no real cost while improving cross-Manchester connectivity. Seems like a good idea to me...

 

[B&I]

I've wondered about that too. A station with six through platforms would be much more flexible than one with the four through platforms and a couple of bays at each end.
To be fair, I suppose we have to admit that when Victoria was rebuilt the expectation was that it would never be more than a station of rather limited importance, with (an inadequate) Piccadilly trying to function as Manchester Hauptbahnhof, so not only were the facilities provided rather limited but so were the track layouts. They got 40 on the four lines up the bank, but used only 25 mph crossovers, which should mean that anything running through the junctions must face approach control and a train starting up the bank has to limit its acceleration away for quite some distance. At the west end, despite having the space of the former eight running lines to play with, they didn't do any more than 25 on all routes, only raised to 30 on the four running lines fairly recently. If we think of roughly comparable jobs done in Germany in the last 30 or 40 years that would probably have been 60 or 80 km/h on everything, running lines and crossovers.

In my mid-century megalomania moments, i sometimes wonder if Victoria might have made a better Hbf for Manchester, post-Picc-Vic link, with a chord to the CLC lines at Ordsall, and trains from the south-east re-routed via Phillips Park or perhaps a cut off through redevelopment-era Miles Platting

 

[billio]

...
The question is whether this would be a net benefit. Extending trains to Stalybridge and Rochdale would not be necessary if they could terminate in these platforms so there would be fewer trains needed and less mileage. But on the other hand the Stalybridge and Rochdale lines would have a poorer service.

Thinking a little more long-term, the money spent on extra platforms might be better spent investing in extending services heavy rail services to places such as Heywood or Oldham. Both these places would benefit from direct services to elsewhere in the greater Manchester network.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thinking a little more long-term, the money spent on extra platforms might be better spent investing in extending services heavy rail services to places such as Heywood or Oldham. Both these places would benefit from direct services to elsewhere in the greater Manchester network.

The former station site at HEYWOOD was nowhere near to the town centre and I would be interested in knowing how it is proposed to divert from the existing line to fulfil that aspiration. The heritage railway still uses the heavy rail track formation in that area.

With regards to the aspirational route into OLDHAM, noting what route is now part of the Manchester Metrolink system up to the Werneth area and the abandoned line section including tunnel sections from there onwards, the Manchester Metrolink already provides a well-used service from the Oldham town centre direct into the centre of Manchester city centre. Even the former Oldham Mumps and Oldham Werneth railway stations were not ideally situated for the actual town centre and the line formation of the original Middleton Junction to Oldham Werneth line with its steep incline has now changed out of all recognition.

 

[Boysteve]

On platform six head west towards the footbridge and there is enough room for two bay platforms-where the trains used to enter the station for platforms 15/16. Okay the bridge may need removing - but I read somewhere these would be getting pulled down in the future.

Certainly there is room immediately to West of Victoria for two 100 metre bays on the overbridges straddling Mirablel Street. Maybe this road needs to be closed at it's junction with Victoria Street to ensure this can happen to support the platform. Access is easy enough by walking to the Western end of Platform 6.

Isn't that footbridge the fire escape for Platform 6? Doubt the space you're talking about is long enough nor can be configured with satisfactory access to/from the main concourse

The fire escapes from Victoria and the Arena are linked. One might not be legal without the other.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Certainly there is room immediately to West of Victoria for two 100 metre bays on the overbridges straddling Mirablel Street. Maybe this road needs to be closed at it's junction with Victoria Street to ensure this can happen to support the platform. Access is easy enough by walking to the Western end of Platform 6.

Platform lengths of 100 metres may appear generous now but given the gradual lengthening of rail passenger vehicles that only equates to a 4-car formation. Some peak-hour services of that length are already full and standing so longer trains will inevitably become a feature within a few years. And then those platforms start to look a bit redundant.

If capacity at Victoria really does start to become an issue then the best solution would be to dust down the Picc-Vic tunnel plans and adapt them to the network that has now evolved. But I would expect that NPR/HS3 would happen first.

 

[lejog]

Indeed 5*23m trains are specified for both Southport and Blackburn/Clitheroe by next year. 100m bay platforms are no use whatsoever. I'm wondering whats going to happen to the 80-100m higher number bay platforms at Leeds when rush hour arrivals from Huddersfield, Calder Valley, York and Selby are due tobe 5or6*23m.

As I posted previously the design capacity of through services through the four platforms at Victoria is 24tph - a train every 5 mins from each platform. Plans at the moment are for 12/13 tph through the station and a couple of terminators - a fair way from capacity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed 5*23m trains are specified for both Southport and Blackburn/Clitheroe by next year.

On both of those lines, how many stations will need their platforms extended to allow for 5*23metre trains?

 

[Chester1]

I think one western platform could be built at Victoria that was ~160m long (ie. for 8x20m and 6x23m sets) a second one would be limited by how much the approach to platform 6 can be moved. 115-20m might be possible. I don't see the point though, its better to run services through Victoria and terminate at Rochdale and Stalybridge, allowing intermediate stops to be removed from long distance services.

 

[TBirdFrank]

The formation is essentially clear from Middleton Junction to Greenfield so if Trans Pennine is so clogged why not dig out Glodwick to Wellyhole St and re-instate? Its only filled with inerts. It doesn't need Specsavers to see the blindingly obvious. Reconnect via Park Bridge to Ashton and the essence of an East Manchester orbital starts to appear. I note that redundant miles don't matter to modern operators - sending everything across Manchester when everyone has got off. What is needed is the connectivity which is about to be further denuded by TPE, not less.

 

[Chester1]

The formation is essentially clear from Middleton Junction to Greenfield so if Trans Pennine is so clogged why not dig out Glodwick to Wellyhole St and re-instate? Its only filled with inerts. It doesn't need Specsavers to see the blindingly obvious. Reconnect via Park Bridge to Ashton and the essence of an East Manchester orbital starts to appear. I note that redundant miles don't matter to modern operators - sending everything across Manchester when everyone has got off. What is needed is the connectivity which is about to be further denuded by TPE, not less.

What was the speed of the line? I wouldn't describe the formation as "essentially clear" it has been built on and would also require building a flyover for Metrolink to pass over it. Do you propose any infrastructure ideas that are not reversing closures or cutbacks?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The formation is essentially clear from Middleton Junction to Greenfield so if Trans Pennine is so clogged why not dig out Glodwick to Wellyhole St and re-instate? Its only filled with inerts. It doesn't need Specsavers to see the blindingly obvious. Reconnect via Park Bridge to Ashton and the essence of an East Manchester orbital starts to appear. I note that redundant miles don't matter to modern operators - sending everything across Manchester when everyone has got off. What is needed is the connectivity which is about to be further denuded by TPE, not less.

I have suggested previously that it's worth checking a "satellite" view of a mapping site before making claims about old formations. Zero possibility of reinstating Oldham-Greenfield as the route is completely occupied at the Greenfield end by housing on a modern road called Oaklands Park. And that being the case absolutely no point in worrying about Middleton Junction-Oldham as it would be pointless now that Metrolink provides the Oldham-Manchester service.

And what is the point of an East Manchester orbital? Demand is so strong that the former Trans-Lancs bus service is but a dying memory. The strongest growth in passenger flows around the north are to/from the regional centres thanks to booming city-centre employment. Heavy rail works best when handling high volume flows, not the penny numbers on the traditional, but dying, flows you (and others) are so fond of promoting. Even the much cheaper to build and operate Metrolink system is not being proposed for any such routes. That's not to say that such flows may not become more important again at some point in the future but that is decades away.

 

[daodao]

What would be the point however?

The trend elsewhere has to been towards through stations at city centre locations - so to add bays seems unlikely.

And six through platforms gives buckets of capacity as it is.

For an exception to "The trend elsewhere has to been towards through stations at city centre locations", please see the South Wales Metro thread, where the fools at the WAG, under the "guidance" of the tired Welsh Labour administration, are planning a complete mess at Cardiff Central station by severing links between services originating north of Queen St and those to Barry/Penarth. The Crachach are crackers.

 

[billio]

The former station site at HEYWOOD was nowhere near to the town centre and I would be interested in knowing how it is proposed to divert from the existing line to fulfil that aspiration. The heritage railway still uses the heavy rail track formation in that area.

With regards to the aspirational route into OLDHAM, noting what route is now part of the Manchester Metrolink system up to the Werneth area and the abandoned line section including tunnel sections from there onwards, the Manchester Metrolink already provides a well-used service from the Oldham town centre direct into the centre of Manchester city centre. Even the former Oldham Mumps and Oldham Werneth railway stations were not ideally situated for the actual town centre and the line formation of the original Middleton Junction to Oldham Werneth line with its steep incline has now changed out of all recognition.

My ideas are just presented as alternatives.
The formation to Heywood from the Manchester direction is still present. The line from the Rochdale direction is still there. I agree Heywood station is not near the town centre: a centre you cannot describe as a major commercial draw. However, I am not sure a central station is important for commuting. It is about a mile from the M62 and if the trains were running to the south side of Manchester it might draw passengers.
I suggest a link to Oldham because Oldham is a large, deprived* town : 230,000+ for the borough, 100,000+ for the town itself. Whilst Metrolink is good it means at least a 20+ minute journey to Victoria and longer to Piccadilly before you can start to get anywhere else by train. A connection to the heavy rail network with services and connections across Lancashire and Cheshire would be a stimulus to the local economy. Both Oldham and Bury, large towns north of Manchester which are not connected to the heavy rail network need to have heavy rail connections.

* www.independent.co.uk -- oldham-tops-list-of-most-deprived-towns-in-britain-a6940696.html

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I suggest a link to Oldham because Oldham is a large, deprived* town : 230,000+ for the borough, 100,000+ for the town itself. Whilst Metrolink is good it means at least a 20+ minute journey to Victoria and longer to Piccadilly before you can start to get anywhere else by train. A connection to the heavy rail network with services and connections across Lancashire and Cheshire would be a stimulus to the local economy. Both Oldham and Bury, large towns north of Manchester which are not connected to the heavy rail network need to have heavy rail connections.

Do you really think that the current Metrolink network does not offer acceptable links to the National heavy rail network from the town centres of both Oldham and Bury? Both those two towns have Metrolink services direct to Manchester Victoria railway station and Bury also has links to Manchester Piccadilly railway station and I am sure that those charged with the running of the Metrolink network are more than happy with the Metrolink loadings into Manchester city centre from both those two areas.

 

[edwin_m]

With hindsight it's a shame that Ashton-Oldham-Greenfield wasn't kept, as it would have provided an alternative route for Transpennine services and a service between Oldham and Yorkshire. But as mentioned there's no possibility of bringing that back now. As well as the issue at Greenfield most of the cuttings between Lees and Oldham have been landfilled with something that requires gas vents. I'm told by a colleague who knows about such things that removing that would be a nightmare.

 

[InOban]

I have suggested previously that it's worth checking a "satellite" view of a mapping site before making claims about old formations. Zero possibility of reinstating Oldham-Greenfield as the route is completely occupied at the Greenfield end by housing on a modern road called Oaklands Park. And that being the case absolutely no point in worrying about Middleton Junction-Oldham as it would be pointless now that Metrolink provides the Oldham-Manchester service.

And what is the point of an East Manchester orbital? Demand is so strong that the former Trans-Lancs bus service is but a dying memory. The strongest growth in passenger flows around the north are to/from the regional centres thanks to booming city-centre employment. Heavy rail works best when handling high volume flows, not the penny numbers on the traditional, but dying, flows you (and others) are so fond of promoting. Even the much cheaper to build and operate Metrolink system is not being proposed for any such routes. That's not to say that such flows may not become more important again at some point in the future but that is decades away.

Are there no major destinations around the outside of Manchester, apart from the airport? Edinburgh has four (offices and shops at Ocean Terminal, shops at Kinnaird Park, the new Royal Infirmary, and the shops and offices at Gyle). All have bus routes which terminate there, and while some head to the centre, others travel between them through the outer suburbs. Maybe it's because Edinburgh's buses belong to a consortium of local authorities.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Are there no major destinations around the outside of Manchester, apart from the airport? Edinburgh has four (offices and shops at Ocean Terminal, shops at Kinnaird Park, the new Royal Infirmary, and the shops and offices at Gyle). All have bus routes which terminate there, and while some head to the centre, others travel between them through the outer suburbs. Maybe it's because Edinburgh's buses belong to a consortium of local authorities.

Major destinations? Not really. Manchester (including its twin Salford) has a very "traditional" geography: a commercial core almost entirely surrounded by residential areas with an incomplete green belt separating it from its satellite towns. Employment in the region used to rely heavily on manufacturing (and mining) but very little of that remains. Most of the growth in employment has come in Manchester city-centre or its immediate environs with not very much in the satellite towns meaning that commuting in/out of Manchester has boomed. One of the side effects of this is the dying out of distinct local accents: young adults resident in Leigh, for example, spend so much time elsewhere that the local accent is heard far less commonly than say 20 or 30 years ago. I daresay the same is true of the other great cities of the north. At some point Manchester will become "full" and there will be more economic growth across the wider region but in the short to medium term Manchester is the inevitable focus of transport improvements.

 

[daodao]

Major destinations? Not really. Manchester (including its twin Salford) has a very "traditional" geography: a commercial core almost entirely surrounded by residential areas with an incomplete green belt separating it from its satellite towns. Employment in the region used to rely heavily on manufacturing (and mining) but very little of that remains. Most of the growth in employment has come in Manchester city-centre or its immediate environs with not very much in the satellite towns meaning that commuting in/out of Manchester has boomed. One of the side effects of this is the dying out of distinct local accents: young adults resident in Leigh, for example, spend so much time elsewhere that the local accent is heard far less commonly than say 20 or 30 years ago. I daresay the same is true of the other great cities of the north. At some point Manchester will become "full" and there will be more economic growth across the wider region but in the short to medium term Manchester is the inevitable focus of transport improvements.

The following places outside the Manchester city centre area, in addition to the Airport, are significant travel destinations for people from outside the city:

• The Trafford Centre
• Salford Quays, including the BBC northern HQ and the Lowry theatre/art gallery
• Imperial War Museum North
• Sports stadia - the Etihad and the cricket/football grounds at Old Trafford
• Manchester University and the main regional hospital complex (MRI/RMCH/St.Mary's), where car parking is nigh impossible Mon-Fri.
• Other major hospitals with regional specialties - Christie, Salford Royal (Hope) and UHSM (Wythenshawe)

All the above are served (or will soon be served) by Metrolink, with the exception of the University and the central M/c hospitals, which have a frequent bus service along Oxford Rd.

Belle Vue Zoo and entertainment complex used to be a major traffic destination, but closed many years ago.

The new RHS garden at Worsley is likely to become a major travel destination, but is very close to the M60/M62, and distant from any rail service since the Leigh loop line closed in 1969.

 

[HSTEd]

If there is no business case for a chord at Queens Road to allow trams to run Bury to Oldham, I doubt there is much of a business case for a full fledged orbital rail (heavy or light) route.

As to Oxford Road, they should have put a street tramway down it but I understand that that is not the model that Manchester favours, it wants light rail in the LA style - a Metro on the cheap.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The formation to Heywood from the Manchester direction is still present. The line from the Rochdale direction is still there. I agree Heywood station is not near the town centre: a centre you cannot describe as a major commercial draw. However, I am not sure a central station is important for commuting. It is about a mile from the M62 and if the trains were running to the south side of Manchester it might draw passengers.

If you are unsure how the Manchester Metrolink system can attract park and ride users in the Bury region, I can recommend a visit to the Metrolink car parks that have been constructed at both Radcliffe and at Whitefield, which are both very well patronised.

With regard to Heywood, which you yourself describe as not a major commercial draw, do you envisage that a heavy rail service from that area to Manchester actually will attract a sizeable number of passengers to make this a viable service?

 

[edwin_m]

The road in question is Oaklands Park and it has 21 houses directly fronting it by my count. The railway track roughly followed the road so it's not just "a few back gardens" it is the road access to these properties. It is also the only access to several side roads containing about twice that many extra houses. Many of those would be viable if the railway was to be reinstated, although some might be accessible by a new side-road off Mossley Road. There's a link below if you'd like to look.

https://binged.it/2jeYqKB

TfGM has been looking at parts of an orbital route for Metrolink - unlikely to be viable for heavy rail if it isn't viable for trams as they are much cheaper to build. There is already an Oldham-Rochdale tramway so another one via Middleton would be very low on the priority list. The most viable areas are likely to be to the south to serve the airport and the HS2 station.

 

[daodao]

If there is no business case for a chord at Queens Road to allow trams to run Bury to Oldham, I doubt there is much of a business case for a full fledged orbital rail (heavy or light) route.

As to Oxford Road, they should have put a street tramway down it but I understand that that is not the model that Manchester favours, it wants light rail in the LA style - a Metro on the cheap.

The traffic between neighbouring key towns surrounding M/c is sufficient to justify a bus service every 10 minutes (30 minutes in the evenings) but no more. As for Oxford Road, there would be problems putting a tramway through the Khyber pass and the centre of Withington, and Didsbury now has a frequent tram service to the city centre, albeit not to the MRI/University. There are street tramways to Eccles and Ashton, but they are the least successful parts of Metrolink.

 

[HSTEd]

The traffic between neighbouring key towns surrounding M/c is sufficient to justify a bus service every 10 minutes (30 minutes in the evenings) but no more. As for Oxford Road, there would be problems putting a tramway through the Khyber pass and the centre of Withington, and Didsbury now has a frequent tram service to the city centre, albeit not to the MRI/University. There are street tramways to Eccles and Ashton, but they are the least successful parts of Metrolink.

The parts of the Oxford Road route that are overly problematic is the route through the Curry Mile - and that is no narrower than say the West Street section of the Sheffield tramway.
Whilst the Eccles and Ashton sections might be the least sucessful, those street tramway sections are distant from the primary load centres, whereas on the Oxford Street tramway they would be the primary segment - and the part through the Universities would not really be a street tramway as such anyway because it would have virtual control over the road anyway.

Oh well, perhaps we might get something if bus regulation goes through.

 

[snail]

As for the lack of demand for an orbital route - what's that M60 thingy that encircles Manchester and is chocked solid from 24 to 3 and 9 to 12 for around six hours a day then?

How does that equate to the railway? Are you proposing that trains run round Manchester without stopping in the centre?

 

[cle]

Oldham has never been better served. The traditional rail service was appalling and hardly used. Metrolink is so much better - and as articulated above, suits the evolution of the Manchester metro area better than the old rail networks did. Bury was an anomaly anyway, and again is better off. I'd say Sale and Alty are too, even though many mourn the old line through there.

Wistful rail nostalgia isn't always correct - Metrolink is a fantastic network, better frequencies and connectivity than the railways ever offered. Manchester is not like Liverpool or Glasgow, it's commuter networks have always been poor. The transition to a full 'turn up and go' network has been the right move.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Using "Locke's rule", even if Manchester Victoria had no terminating services at all you'd need twice as many platform berths as approach tracks in each direction; a preponderance of stations service by Victoria trains are at least six-car (130 - 140m) capable, and if you were planning ahead you would build for 8 x 23m +5m = 189m or possibly even 230m for IEP. This means that Victoria would need to be at least 2 x 4 x 189 m.

Vitoria's through platforms are 254, 224, 215 and 215 so no problem there, you just need twice as many, or each one needs to be twice as long as it is now. Local knowledge suggests that neither is a cheap outcome. Alternatively we could just throttle Victoria to run a maximum of five-car trains forever more ...

 

[Chester1]

Using "Locke's rule", even if Manchester Victoria had no terminating services at all you'd need twice as many platform berths as approach tracks in each direction; a preponderance of stations service by Victoria trains are at least six-car (130 - 140m) capable, and if you were planning ahead you would build for 8 x 23m +5m = 189m or possibly even 230m for IEP. This means that Victoria would need to be at least 2 x 4 x 189 m.

Vitoria's through platforms are 254, 224, 215 and 215 so no problem there, you just need twice as many, or each one needs to be twice as long as it is now. Local knowledge suggests that neither is a cheap outcome. Alternatively we could just throttle Victoria to run a maximum of five-car trains forever more ...

I was a bit surprised to read your post, normally advocates of expanding Victoria are the usual suspects who seemingly think that every cut over the last 50 years must be reversed! What do you think can be done on a realistic budget?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Demolish the Arena is sadly the starting price for all that, or rebuilding all the structures westward from Victoria to about the site of Deal St. Box (it is a mugger's buddle of odd decks, arches, side spans and holes). Unless it turns out that the entire GDP of the North is being strangled by capacity through Victoria I doubt the funds will never appear to do either .

I wasn't supporting perpetual five-car, BTW, just missed a , a or possibly a .