Could Merseyrail services be extended beyond Hunts Cross towards Warrington?

[frodshamfella]

Moderator note: This thread has been split from Future of Wrexham-Bidston line, inc. possible franchise swap etc

Surely all these odd termination stations need to go, they are nonsensical really. So Kirby train should terminate at Wigan ( and include Skem) Ormskirk should run to Preston, Ellesmere Port go down to Helsby and Wreham to Bidston into Liverpool Central. You then have much greater onward connection possibilities and the intermediate stations on the Northern /arriva Wales services get a much more usable and attractive service, with the hopeful car use reductions as a result.

YES !!

To be honest Hunts Cross is an odd place to terminate, Widnes or Warrington would be better.

 

[B&I]

To be honest Hunts Cross is an odd place to terminate, Widnes or Warrington would be better.

True. If you're going to the bother of getting Merseyrail trains across Allerton junction, with all the problems that causes, you might as well send them somewhere more useful. I'd suggest Birchwood as somewhere that a terminating bay could be built relatively easily, and also to provide local services into Liverpool from as much as possible of the Warrington area

 

[Bletchleyite]

True. If you're going to the bother of getting Merseyrail trains across Allerton junction, with all the problems that causes, you might as well send them somewhere more useful. I'd suggest Birchwood as somewhere that a terminating bay could be built relatively easily, and also to provide local services into Liverpool from as much as possible of the Warrington area

I'd send them to Warrington Central and have the Manchester end served by an increased frequency of local service, and bin the CLC through services off entirely. Ideally get the 25kV up, as this would massively improve the running times on a route that has so many local stations.

 

[frodshamfella]

True. If you're going to the bother of getting Merseyrail trains across Allerton junction, with all the problems that causes, you might as well send them somewhere more useful. I'd suggest Birchwood as somewhere that a terminating bay could be built relatively easily, and also to provide local services into Liverpool from as much as possible of the Warrington area

That sounds a good idea

 

[Bevan Price]

To be honest Hunts Cross is an odd place to terminate, Widnes or Warrington would be better.

You would need to build some 4 track sections - or passing loops - for that to happen without hindering the express services. And that would be very expensive. And withdrawing the express services would not be popular in Warrington (or Widnes), as that would substantially increase journey times to both Manchester & Liverpool.
(Warrington Central to Oxford Road 19 mins. by express; about 40 mins. by all stations local.)

 

[edwin_m]

You would need to build some 4 track sections - or passing loops - for that to happen without hindering the express services. And that would be very expensive. And withdrawing the express services would not be popular in Warrington (or Widnes), as that would substantially increase journey times to both Manchester & Liverpool.
(Warrington Central to Oxford Road 19 mins. by express; about 40 mins. by all stations local.)

The capacity problem is because the stopping train has to leave Manchester and Liverpool just behind the express so as to get to the other end just ahead of the next express. Having two separate but overlapping stopping services Liverpool-Warrington and Manchester-Warrington (exact terminating points in Warrington not relevant to this point) actually eases this problem, although it would require turnback sidings at both terminating stations. Running the stoppers as extensions of Merseyrail Hunts Cross services also reduces pressure on Allerton and Hunts Cross Junctions, although someone would have to find another train to serve the intermediate stations from South Parkway into Lime Street.

I'm reporting this post in the hope mods can move this and related ones into a separate thread, as it has nothing to do with Borderlands.

 

[Statto]

The capacity problem is because the stopping train has to leave Manchester and Liverpool just behind the express so as to get to the other end just ahead of the next express. Having two separate but overlapping stopping services Liverpool-Warrington and Manchester-Warrington (exact terminating points in Warrington not relevant to this point) actually eases this problem, although it would require turnback sidings at both terminating stations. Running the stoppers as extensions of Merseyrail Hunts Cross services also reduces pressure on Allerton and Hunts Cross Junctions, although someone would have to find another train to serve the intermediate stations from South Parkway into Lime Street.

I'm reporting this post in the hope mods can move this and related ones into a separate thread, as it has nothing to do with Borderlands.

It's worse when one of the expresses is delayed then ends up running behind the stopper, Westbound has a passing loop at Glazebury where expresses can overtake the stopper, Eastbound there are no passing loops until Man Utd Football ground halt, fingures crossed the express can overtake the stopper before LPY.

 

[frodshamfella]

You would need to build some 4 track sections - or passing loops - for that to happen without hindering the express services. And that would be very expensive. And withdrawing the express services would not be popular in Warrington (or Widnes), as that would substantially increase journey times to both Manchester & Liverpool.
(Warrington Central to Oxford Road 19 mins. by express; about 40 mins. by all stations local.)

So bring on some investment !!

 

[lyndhurst25]

To be honest Hunts Cross is an odd place to terminate, Widnes or Warrington would be better.

Hunts Cross was only supposed to be a temporary terminus. The original Merseyrail plan was to reopen the branch to Gatacre from there but it never happened.

 

[sw1ller]

The capacity problem is because the stopping train has to leave Manchester and Liverpool just behind the express so as to get to the other end just ahead of the next express. Having two separate but overlapping stopping services Liverpool-Warrington and Manchester-Warrington (exact terminating points in Warrington not relevant to this point) actually eases this problem, although it would require turnback sidings at both terminating stations. Running the stoppers as extensions of Merseyrail Hunts Cross services also reduces pressure on Allerton and Hunts Cross Junctions, although someone would have to find another train to serve the intermediate stations from South Parkway into Lime Street.

I'm reporting this post in the hope mods can move this and related ones into a separate thread, as it has nothing to do with Borderlands.

Please

 

[edwin_m]

It's worse when one of the expresses is delayed then ends up running behind the stopper, Westbound has a passing loop at Glazebury where expresses can overtake the stopper, Eastbound there are no passing loops until Man Utd Football ground halt, fingures crossed the express can overtake the stopper before LPY.

They can also put the stopper over onto the slow line from South Parkway, but either option will delay the express further if it was only a few minutes late at Oxford Road. By the way it's Glazebrook not Glazebury.

The transfer of the East Midlands express to another operator might help here if they start crewing the service from Liverpool rather than Nottingham. Currently the crew have a mandatory break at Lime Street (may be just the conductor, I think the driver drops back to the train an hour later) so if they arrive there late they can't start back immediately, triggering the same problem on the way back.

 

[frodshamfella]

Hunts Cross was only supposed to be a temporary terminus. The original Merseyrail plan was to reopen the branch to Gatacre from there but it never happened.

That's a shame probably needed more now than ever. As a Liverpool Airport link will be, a much more logical termination point for Merseyrail.

 

[Holly]

True. If you're going to the bother of getting Merseyrail trains across Allerton junction, with all the problems that causes, you might as well send them somewhere more useful. I'd suggest Birchwood as somewhere that a terminating bay could be built relatively easily, and also to provide local services into Liverpool from as much as possible of the Warrington area

Local services from Warrington to Liverpool would best be provided by reopening the Fiddler's Ferry line to Bank Quay Low Level for passenger traffic. That would not interfere with express services via Warrington Central and provide a very useful connection.

 

[edwin_m]

Local services from Warrington to Liverpool would best be provided by reopening the Fiddler's Ferry line to Bank Quay Low Level for passenger traffic. That would not interfere with express services via Warrington Central and provide a very useful connection.

This route skirts the southern edge of the places that the existing route goes nearer the middle of, so would be less good for a stopping service. Bank Quay is also less convenient for the centre of Warrington and there's no easy way of providing through service towards Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Local services from Warrington to Liverpool would best be provided by reopening the Fiddler's Ferry line to Bank Quay Low Level for passenger traffic. That would not interfere with express services via Warrington Central and provide a very useful connection.

But wouldn't serve the large number of intermediate stations, to serve which properly (say with 4tph) you need to send the expresses a different way.

And if there was a route crying out for the wires and high-acceleration EMUs this is it.

If splitting at Warrington wasn't desirable, you could perhaps do something like:
2tph Lime St, South Parkway, Widnes, Warrington Central then all stations to Manchester
2tph Lime St, all stations to Birchwood then fast to Manchester (maybe Urmston)
...using regeared (75mph) class 319s?

There used to be an evening service that was all stations to Warrington Central then fast to Piccadilly (as Merseytravel would pay for the intermediates but GMPTE wouldn't, I believe), so it's not strictly new

 

[B&I]

This route skirts the southern edge of the places that the existing route goes nearer the middle of, so would be less good for a stopping service. Bank Quay is also less convenient for the centre of Warrington and there's no easy way of providing through service towards Manchester.

It would require a lot of stuff to be rebuilt, and trains would only get as far as Altrincham without digging up Metrolink or going round the world for.a shortcutvia Stockport. But it would serve much of Widnes better than the current line, along with the southern suburbs of Warrington and Lymm, which currently have no service at all

 

[edwin_m]

It was suggested somewhere on here a couple of months ago that Northern Powerhouse Rail might use bits of the Fiddlers Ferry route, which is unlikely to have much other use when the power station closes. If the NPR trains stop at Warrington as suggested then there is little need for expresses on the CLC route.

 

[daodao]

Hunts Cross was only supposed to be a temporary terminus. The original Merseyrail plan was to reopen the branch to Gatacre from there but it never happened.

Re-extension to Gateacre, with 1 intermediate stop, using 3rd rail DC, would be a relatively cheap and sensible expansion of Merseyrail to serve an additional part of Liverpool. The CLC line beyond Halewood is not within Merseyside. Ideally, it should be electrified at 25 KV overhead and remain part of Network Rail, with services mostly run by Northern Rail.

It would require a lot of stuff to be rebuilt, and trains would only get as far as Altrincham without digging up Metrolink or going round the world for.a short cut via Stockport. But it would serve much of Widnes better than the current line, along with the southern suburbs of Warrington and Lymm, which currently have no service at all

The line is still extant as far as Latchford, but the Viaduct over the ship canal may no longer be fit to carry trains. The track bed is still extant (and forms part of the Trans-Pennine Trail), as far as Seamons Road (about 1 mile east of the former Dunham Massey station, pictured in my avatar). However, in Broadheath, it has been converted into George Richards Way, which serves various retail/commercial premises, and there is no longer a bridge over Manchester Road to connect it with existing lines. There is no realistic prospect of this line being re-opened.

 

[Chester1]

It was suggested somewhere on here a couple of months ago that Northern Powerhouse Rail might use bits of the Fiddlers Ferry route, which is unlikely to have much other use when the power station closes. If the NPR trains stop at Warrington as suggested then there is little need for expresses on the CLC route.

Using the line as the base for NPR would be a good way of reducing costs. Reopening Warrington Bank Quay lower level is the only alternative to avoid a parkway station. It would need to be completely rebuilt and straightened but using the WCML between Lime Street and South Parkway would save tunneling under Liverpool.

Ignoring NPR completely, if Merseyrail where extended to Warrington Central then perhaps the capacity solution would be to remove all stops between South Parkway and Warrington Central from Northern services. Something like 2tph (Southport-Hunts Cross), 2tph Merseyrail (Southport-Warrington Central), 2tph all stops east of Warrington (run by 769s) and 2tph express.

 

[Holly]

... The line is still extant as far as Latchford, but the Viaduct over the ship canal may no longer be fit to carry trains. The track bed is still extant (and forms part of the Trans-Pennine Trail), as far as Seamons Road (about 1 mile east of the former Dunham Massey station, pictured in my avatar). However, in Broadheath, it has been converted into George Richards Way, which serves various retail/commercial premises, and there is no longer a bridge over Manchester Road to connect it with existing lines. There is no realistic prospect of this line being re-opened.

Yes, I was thinking in terms of trains from Lime Street turning back at a reinstated Warrington Arpley Station (to serve the shopping area) and going no further.
This would serve Widnes well and provide a useful passenger connection to the WCML. And by providing a stopping service on otherwise little used tracks that should take some pressure off a need for a more frequent stopping service on the CLC tracks.

 

[jamesst]

I'd say there's 0% chance of Merseyrail ever extending beyond Hunts Cross. In fact if they could turn back at Liverpool South Parkway permanently and just leave Hunts Cross to the mainline I'd suspect they'd be happy.

 

[B&I]

It was suggested somewhere on here a couple of months ago that Northern Powerhouse Rail might use bits of the Fiddlers Ferry route, which is unlikely to have much other use when the power station closes. If the NPR trains stop at Warrington as suggested then there is little need for expresses on the CLC route.

Yes, I think a new Liverpool-Manchester-Yorkshire could remove a lot of the constraints on rail in the north. At a stroke, there would be oodles of capacity for local services, not just on the CLC, but also on lines like Chat Moss and the Standedge route, and of course on the core lines through central Manchester. If anything, it could have a greater impact on local travel up here than HS2 would do down there.

 

[Huntscross]

Why did they never swap the Mersey rail and city line platforms, would avoid northern line trains crossing the city line trains path. Extension to gatacre is very unlikely, doesn't seem worth the conflict to keep that potential open.
I'd love a gatacre extension though, there's a big area reliant on a 45 minute plus bus ride to the city centre.

 

[urbophile]

I'd say there's 0% chance of Merseyrail ever extending beyond Hunts Cross. In fact if they could turn back at Liverpool South Parkway permanently and just leave Hunts Cross to the mainline I'd suspect they'd be happy.

Whether the residents of Hunts Cross would be happy is a different matter! Though if the Liverpool end was diverted through the Wapping tunnel and the service from there to Warrington taken over by Merseyrail, that would be the best of both worlds. Though reopening Gateacre would be cheaper.

 

[frodshamfella]

I'd say there's 0% chance of Merseyrail ever extending beyond Hunts Cross. In fact if they could turn back at Liverpool South Parkway permanently and just leave Hunts Cross to the mainline I'd suspect they'd be happy.

I' m sure the Hunts Cross residents wouldn't be best pleased.

 

[53703]

Would it be feasible for Northern to have some dual-voltage 769s and run Manchester to Hunts Cross and then onto the Merseyrail network instead of going to Lime Street??

 

[urbophile]

Would it be feasible for Northern to have some dual-voltage 769s and run Manchester to Hunts Cross and then onto the Merseyrail network instead of going to Lime Street??

Only if wires were installed from Hunts X to Manchester. And anyway why do we want Northern trains on Merseyrail?

 

[frodshamfella]

I think Merseyrail run a pretty good service for Liverpool and the surrounds, and as such the system should be expanded. The network hasn't had any expansion since electrification to Chester and Ellesmere Port, it's about time it had some investment.

 

[Statto]

I' m sure the Hunts Cross residents wouldn't be best pleased.

Indeed, when there's normal services, there's 5tph at Hunts Cross which will go to 1tph under that idea

 

[frodshamfella]

Indeed, when there's normal services, there's 5tph at Hunts Cross which will go to 1tph under that idea

How many trains per hour does Halewood get, its just the next stop, and an area of a lot of housing, plus still within Merseyside boundary (which I don't believe should be a reason for Merseyrail to curtail any extension)