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Could more electrification allow an alternative route for WCML freight?

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adamedwards

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If Wigston South to Nuneaton is electrified, plus Carlton Road to Junction Road Junction, then there is a WCML relieving electric freight route at minimal extra cost. That means of course this Govt won't do it, but it ought to be a no-brainer.
 
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Dr Hoo

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If Wigston South to Nuneaton is electrified, plus Carlton Road to Junction Road Junction, then there is a WCML relieving electric freight route at minimal extra cost. That means of course this Govt won't do it, but it ought to be a no-brainer.
Is the MML south of Bedford already gauge cleared for W10/W12 intermodal traffic then?
 

John R

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If Wigston South to Nuneaton is electrified, plus Carlton Road to Junction Road Junction, then there is a WCML relieving electric freight route at minimal extra cost. That means of course this Govt won't do it, but it ought to be a no-brainer.
Lots of things are a no-brainer. Until you start to think about the practicalities. Apart from the cost of wiring , is there capacity for all these extra services at the bottom of the MML, and is the power supply able to cope with them?
 

Nicholas Lewis

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If Wigston South to Nuneaton is electrified, plus Carlton Road to Junction Road Junction, then there is a WCML relieving electric freight route at minimal extra cost. That means of course this Govt won't do it, but it ought to be a no-brainer.
Indeed another no regrets freight scheme but even a few miles down to somewhere like London gateway can't even get approved.
 

adamedwards

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I was assuming power and guage issues are being addressed as part of the upgrade from London to Bedford, perhaps naively. Capacity is probably not there in the peaks, but at other times one would hope so?
 

swt_passenger

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I was assuming power and guage issues are being addressed as part of the upgrade from London to Bedford, perhaps naively. Capacity is probably not there in the peaks, but at other times one would hope so?
There’s no correlation between freight gauge clearance and wiring clearance. Either one of them can be done on its own and doesn’t necessarily provide the other.
 

edwin_m

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There’s no correlation between freight gauge clearance and wiring clearance. Either one of them can be done on its own and doesn’t necessarily provide the other.
If bridges are being re-built then they will provide both gauge and electrification clearance. But I agree one doesn't deliver the other - and may do even less in future as NR tries to avoid bridge works.

I imagine the London-Bedford section will be the minimum necessary to achieve the higher speeds, and I doubt any of that work would contribute to gauge enhancement. With HS2 in the pipeline I don't see there being that much more needed to take freight off the southern WCML - and if there was then electrification via Ely would probably be a better bet, bypassing the two-track section through Harborough as well as the busy route south of Bedford.
 

Class 170101

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With HS2 in the pipeline I don't see there being that much more needed to take freight off the southern WCML - and if there was then electrification via Ely would probably be a better bet, bypassing the two-track section through Harborough as well as the busy route south of Bedford.

Except running via Ely has its own challenges wired or not.
 

Bald Rick

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If Wigston South to Nuneaton is electrified, plus Carlton Road to Junction Road Junction, then there is a WCML relieving electric freight route at minimal extra cost. That means of course this Govt won't do it, but it ought to be a no-brainer.

it’s also not much use. It’s pretty difficult (if not impossible) to timetable freight services to Junction Road Junction from the GEML during the operating ‘day’. You have to find a slot that crosses the GEML, NLL, WAML and the whole Thameslink service on the MML.

Is the MML south of Bedford already gauge cleared for W10/W12 intermodal traffic then?

As I’m sure you know, it isn’t, and is never likely to be. Clearing Belsize and Elstree tunnels would, by my estimation, require each to be closed for upwards of three months.

I was assuming power and guage issues are being addressed as part of the upgrade from London to Bedford, perhaps naively. Capacity is probably not there in the peaks, but at other times one would hope so?

Power would be fine, gauge isn’t as above. Capacity is not there on the MML off peak daytime: there’s a reason why there’s only about a dozen paths between Junction Road Junction and Carlton Road junction in ‘daytime’ (total both directions) - and that’s because with 10 Thameslink services each way off peak finding a slot to thread through a long / heavy / both freight is difficult. slightly off topic, but it’s why the proposed freight terminal at Radlett is such a con - no gauge to get there from Felixstowe / Gateway and no paths either!
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Lots of things are a no-brainer. Until you start to think about the practicalities. Apart from the cost of wiring , is there capacity for all these extra services at the bottom of the MML, and is the power supply able to cope with them?
They've upgrade grid connections at the South end so equipment should have adequate rating for an hourly freight path but depends what firm service capacity they've reserved with NG.
 

59CosG95

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Is the MML south of Bedford already gauge cleared for W10/W12 intermodal traffic then?
As @Bald Rick has already said, no - the LNE Sectional Appendix states that St Pancras - Cricklewood is W6 (except the Down Hendon & Up Hendon lines between Cricklewood Curve Jn & West Hampstead North Jn, which can accept W7/W8), and that Cricklewood - Bedford is W8.
ISTR that Bedford northwards has allegedly been cleared to W12 with the bridge rebuilds, but this isn't shown on the SA tables (which date to 1st January 2022). Makes little sense to do the update when nothing either side has been cleared to similar levels!
 

zwk500

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ISTR that Bedford northwards has allegedly been cleared to W12 with the bridge rebuilds, but this isn't shown on the SA tables (which date to 1st January 2022). Makes little sense to do the update when nothing either side has been cleared to similar levels!
3 possibilities - It is cleared (possibly on temporary paperwork) but the SA hasn't been updated, It would be cleared but hasn't been formally assessed as no operator has asked to run traffic beyond W6 that way, or that all bridges that were modified were cleared to W12 but there were some bridges that didn't need modification that prevent the route being cleared.
 

Bald Rick

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There have to be higher priorities. F2N/F2MN should be very high but Ely is without doubt not easy.

electrifying Ely is easy - hence it’s been done. Electrifying across the fens to Peterborough is also easy - there’s a grand total of 6 bridges To get under, 4 of which are definitely built for electrification, one probably is, and the sixth is the ECML. You do need some big piles across the fens though.

what’s not easy is running more trains that way.
 

zwk500

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electrifying Ely is easy - hence it’s been done. Electrifying across the fens to Peterborough is also easy - there’s a grand total of 6 bridges To get under, 4 of which are definitely built for electrification, one probably is, and the sixth is the ECML. You do need some big piles across the fens though.

what’s not easy is running more trains that way.
How easy is the rest of the route to electrify? No point having via March done if a class 90 couldn't get from Ipswich to Ely.
 

Bald Rick

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How easy is the rest of the route to electrify? No point having via March done if a class 90 couldn't get from Ipswich to Ely.

relatively straightforward.

but it would have to be Felixstowe to Birmingham to have any sensible level of use, and that’s a lot of wires for not many trains.
 

zwk500

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relatively straightforward.

but it would have to be Felixstowe to Birmingham to have any sensible level of use, and that’s a lot of wires for not many trains.
Agreed. Birmingham-Nuneaton-Leicester just about makes sense for the XC, but Leicester-Peterborough really is hard to see the case
 

Trainbike46

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relatively straightforward.

but it would have to be Felixstowe to Birmingham to have any sensible level of use, and that’s a lot of wires for not many trains.
If the decision was made to electrify all the way to birmingham, passenger trains would also use the electrification for starters XC service birmingham-stansted and the GA service within east anglia

Lowest use section might be peterborough-Leicester, unless I'm missing some trains?

Would there be any freight use in just electrifying Felixstowe-Ipswich, Stowmarket-Ely(/Cambridge) and Ely-Peterborough, for example for freight heading to the ECML? Because if so that might be a sensible way to divide the project into smaller, more palatable sections
 

HSTEd

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Would there be any freight use in just electrifying Felixstowe-Ipswich, Stowmarket-Ely(/Cambridge) and Ely-Peterborough, for example for freight heading to the ECML? Because if so that might be a sensible way to divide the project into smaller, more palatable sections
My understanding is relatively little freight uses the ECML now because it tends to divert via the unelectrified Joint Line via Lincoln.

Indeed they recently built the Werrington diveunder for this reason
 

zwk500

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Would there be any freight use in just electrifying Felixstowe-Ipswich, Stowmarket-Ely(/Cambridge) and Ely-Peterborough, for example for freight heading to the ECML? Because if so that might be a sensible way to divide the project into smaller, more palatable sections
Not without the Joint line, as said above it isn't wired yet. Best case for electric freight is probably Bi-Mode or battery locos, with Birmingham-Leicester and Peterborough-Ipswich wired and the rest done under the loco's own power.
 

EastisECML

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What about reviving the Great Central Railway proposal? To refresh anyone's memory's it involved taking over some existing lines, reopen some closed ones and some new build lines to carry Berne gauge trains with lorrys on their back from the channel tunnel to Liverpool docks via the former GCR, Woodhead and Chat Moss as well as an ambitious new line from Redhill to Heathrow and the Chiltern lines.

It would perhaps need to be diverted through the North East of London instead and revive DB's proposal to rebuild the MML for continental gauge trains.
 

zwk500

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What about reviving the Great Central Railway proposal? To refresh anyone's memory's it involved taking over some existing lines, reopen some closed ones and some new build lines to carry Berne gauge trains with lorrys on their back from the channel tunnel to Liverpool docks via the former GCR, Woodhead and Chat Moss as well as an ambitious new line from Redhill to Heathrow and the Chiltern lines.

It would perhaps need to be diverted through the North East of London instead and revive DB's proposal to rebuild the MML for continental gauge trains.
There's speculation and then there's …. this.

Woodhead isn't going to happen. Reboring/lowering the track through the tunnel isn't viable, the route has been obstructed in large parts and the gradients weren't good when it did run. The Former GCR is also obstructed in a large number of places and would need near total reconstruction of every bridge and tunnel as it wasn't to Berne Gauge in the first place. The Chat Moss is now very, very busy so cramming class 4 freight onto it would probably need infrastructure intervention. A new line from Redhill to High Wycombe via Heathrow is never going to happen in a million years. It would be too expensive, too politically divisive and too white an elephant to even bother with an engineer's desktop study.

It would also do nothing for ex-Felixstowe or Southampton freight, which are (I believe) the dominant flows onto the WCML.
 

Railwaysceptic

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There's speculation and then there's …. this.

Woodhead isn't going to happen. Reboring/lowering the track through the tunnel isn't viable, the route has been obstructed in large parts and the gradients weren't good when it did run. The Former GCR is also obstructed in a large number of places and would need near total reconstruction of every bridge and tunnel as it wasn't to Berne Gauge in the first place. The Chat Moss is now very, very busy so cramming class 4 freight onto it would probably need infrastructure intervention. A new line from Redhill to High Wycombe via Heathrow is never going to happen in a million years. It would be too expensive, too politically divisive and too white an elephant to even bother with an engineer's desktop study.

It would also do nothing for ex-Felixstowe or Southampton freight, which are (I believe) the dominant flows onto the WCML.
I thought the post you're replying to was a joke! You're obviously more perceptive than I am!
 

HSTEd

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If you were going to build a high capacity freight line, you wouldn't build it to something as small as Berne gauge, you'd build it to AAR Plate H, and you wouldn't build it on an existing alignment - it would be new build, just like HS2.
 

zwk500

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If you were going to build a high capacity freight line, you wouldn't build it to something as small as Berne gauge, you'd build it to AAR Plate H, and you wouldn't build it on an existing alignment - it would be new build, just like HS2.
AAR Plate H would probably be too vast an increase in cost for mediocre payback unless you also invested in brand new terminal yards. UIC GB+ or GC is more reasonable balance between cost/benefit.
 

HSTEd

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AAR Plate H would probably be too vast an increase in cost for mediocre payback unless you also invested in brand new terminal yards. UIC GB+ or GC is more reasonable balance between cost/benefit.

If you are going to do any serious freight operations, especially if you want to try piggyback operations, you are probably going to need new terminal yards anyway. New yards are also unlikely to cost much compared to the very long railway you just built.

Ultimately once the line is built changing the loading gauge at reasonable cost would be essentially impossible, so there is no reason not to go big - indeed I would suggest AAR Plate H height but Eurotunnel width.
 

zwk500

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If you are going to do any serious freight operations, especially if you want to try piggyback operations, you are probably going to need new terminal yards anyway. New yards are also unlikely to cost much compared to the very long railway you just built.

Ultimately once the line is built changing the loading gauge at reasonable cost would be essentially impossible, so there is no reason not to go big - indeed I would suggest AAR Plate H height but Eurotunnel width.
There is - you make the thing unaffordable as the land take required for bridges to gain height etc is too great and the political will drops off the cliff. AAR plate H is 2m taller than W12/GB+, which you will notice when you need to pass under any bridge along the route.
 

HSTEd

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There is - you make the thing unaffordable as the land take required for bridges to gain height etc is too great and the political will drops off the cliff. AAR plate H is 2m taller than W12/GB+, which you will notice when you need to pass under any bridge along the route.

Surely most of the time new routes tend to go over the old ones, rather than under, because it is dramatically easier to build an overbridge without mass disruption to the other route than an underbridge. I'm skeptical digging an underpass a metre or two deeper will have that big an impact on cost given the availability of Werrington style boxes (or the Alameda corridor in the US) that have land take largely decoupled from depth of the cutting.

And in tunnels engineering constraints related to evacuation walkways for train crew and the circular nature of most modern tunnels (dug by TBMs) will force quite a large height anyway. Even tube-gauge tunnels have reached 5.2m diameter on the new construction!

Given the trend in recent years across the west has been for ever greater fractions of lines to be built in tunnel - I'm not sure adding an extra 1.5m over the HS2-style GC gauge is going to matter too much.

Note that the one route built new for freight in Europe in recent years (the Betuweroute) was built with structural clearances for double stack operations, albeit not with operational clearances to avoid modifying pantographs on rolling stock for greater travel and because none of the connecting infrastructure could do that.
 
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TheBigD

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How easy is the rest of the route to electrify? No point having via March done if a class 90 couldn't get from Ipswich to Ely.

relatively straightforward.

but it would have to be Felixstowe to Birmingham to have any sensible level of use, and that’s a lot of wires for not many trains.

To add to what Bald Rick has posted...

For (a lot) more freight to run Ipswich to Peterborough via Ely, you'll also need, in no particular order...

Ely remodelling (proposed alteady)
Doubling Soham-Ely
Doubling Haughley Junction
Freight loops (currently room for 1 liner at Ely) as the current March, Bury, and Stowmarket loops are too short for most liners.
Resignalling to remove the absolute block sections (Bury line resignalling underway, but the only thing on the March Line is the replacement of semaphores at Whittlesea in December with colour light signals)

I'm sure there's more...
 

Trainbike46

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To add to what Bald Rick has posted...

For (a lot) more freight to run Ipswich to Peterborough via Ely, you'll also need, in no particular order...

Ely remodelling (proposed alteady)
Doubling Soham-Ely
Doubling Haughley Junction
Freight loops (currently room for 1 liner at Ely) as the current March, Bury, and Stowmarket loops are too short for most liners.
Resignalling to remove the absolute block sections (Bury line resignalling underway, but the only thing on the March Line is the replacement of semaphores at Whittlesea in December with colour light signals)

I'm sure there's more...
Another one that I have heard about was improvements on Ipswich-Felixstowe, specifically dual-tracking to make the freight paths on there more flexible and to be able to send freight both towards london and towards Ely at the same time
 
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