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Could Nicola Sturgeon succeed if she tried to implement Covid19 border controls between England and Scotland?

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duncanp

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-was-the-new-normal-pub-cafe-experience-for-you.206159

As I'm now heartily sick of Sturgeon's control freakery, I'm fleeing across the border for a day out tomorrow - any good suggestions for lunch in Berwick-upon-Tweed?

Do make sure she hasn't closed the border yet.



Nicola Sturgeon has confirmed the most significant return of freedoms in Scotland since lockdown began, but warned that reopening society would also bring “real dangers” as she again raised the prospect of imposing cross-border travel restrictions with England.
From Friday, people from three different households will be able to meet indoors for the first time since March, in groups of up to eight. And in a move that paves the way for large-scale family reunions this weekend, groups of up to 15 people, from five separate households, will be able to meet up outdoors as long as social distancing rules are followed.
With the country entering the third of four stages of easing lockdown, Ms Sturgeon confirmed that pubs, restaurants and cafes will be able to reopen indoor areas from Wednesday next week, when communal worship can also resume.
Hairdressers, tourist attractions, shopping centres and hotels will also reopen next week, along with dentists. Rules regulating numbers able to attend funerals and weddings will also be eased. Beauty salons will be able to open on July 22.
The two-metre distancing rule is being relaxed for businesses in some sectors, although wearing face coverings in shops become mandatory from Friday.

Ms Sturgeon said that while the easing of a raft of restrictions were a cause for “cautious hope”, with cases of the virus continuing to decline, she said she wanted to be “crystal clear with the country that this is also a time of real danger”.
The day after she confirmed that quarantine restrictions for travellers from Spain and Serbia would be maintained in Scotland, even though they will end in the rest of the UK, she said that she remained concerned about the potential for an influx of Covid-19 cases from other countries.
Previously the First Minister has refused to rule out imposing quarantine restrictions on people travelling to Scotland from other parts of the UK but insisted she has “no plans” to do so. However, in a shift of emphasis, she warned that introducing new restrictions on people from outside Scotland, including with other parts of the UK, would be kept “under review”.

Meanwhile, Scottish officials have begun to raise concerns about cross-border importation of the virus with their Whitehall counterparts over recent days, The Daily Telegraph understands.
Ms Sturgeon said that prevalence of the virus is “several times lower” in Scotland than it is across the UK and said the potential for importing cases had given her “pause for thought” when deciding whether to enter stage three of easing lockdown.
She added: “The balanced decision we announced on air bridges was essential for us to conclude, at this stage, that we are managing that risk in an effective and proportionate manner.
“However, it is essential that we keep this risk under close review. And, to be clear, this must cover the possibility of importation from other parts of the UK, as well as from overseas.”
The First Minister has insisted any decision to impose quarantine restrictions on travellers from England would be taken strictly for public health reasons, and has pointed to countries such as the United States where restrictions in internal travel has been imposed.
However, any suggestion of imposing travel restrictions within the UK would be seen as a provocation by unionists. Boris Johnson has described the suggestion as “absolutely astonishing and shameful”.
Reacting to Ms Sturgeon’s latest comments, Maurice Golden, economy spokesman for the Scottish Conservatives, said the First Minister had given “the biggest hint yet” that she was “prepared to close the Scottish border to those travelling to or from the rest of the UK".
He added: “The First Minister is perfectly aware of what that would mean in practice, and the effect it would have on our economy.
“Not only that, this language is exactly the kind of encouragement that spurred on the hate-filled border protests last weekend.
“It appears that the First Minister’s priorities lie more with her hardcore nationalist base than the jobs of ordinary Scots.”
In other changes to lockdown, young people aged 11 or under will no longer have to physically distance from today, nor will all couples who do not live together. Live outdoor events and amateur contact sports could resume from next month, although no firm date has been given.
Ms Sturgeon said: “We should all savour our first indoor meetings and meals with friends, our first pint in a pub or catch-up over coffee. I know that many of us are looking forward to our first non-amateur haircut in many months. There will be other milestones and reunions that we will enjoy during the next few weeks.

"They have all been hard earned by each and every one of us. However, I have a duty to be crystal clear with the country that this is also a time of real danger. Next week represents the most substantial easing of lockdown so far, and we know that meeting people indoors poses far greater risks than going to a park or to someone’s garden.”
The announcement on lockdown easing was broadly welcomed by businesses, although retailers remain nervous about face coverings becoming mandatory.
Liz Cameron, chief executive of the Scottish Chambers of Commerce, said: “Confirmation by the First Minister that the country can now return to more normality will be very much welcomed by all, particularly businesses that are due to reopen and begin to build up their trade.
“Our business communities across Scotland are eager and ready to get back to work in order to breathe life back into our economy and protect the livelihoods it supports. Businesses have invested heavily to comply with all health and safety regulations and government guidance. We are firmly open for business and would ask everyone to come out and support your local businesses.
“The next great challenge is now determining if consumer demand can be stimulated and maintained as government support measures taper off in the next few months.’’
 
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Journeyman

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I think it would be practically impossible, as you'd have to deploy "border guards" on some extremely minor roads - dozens of them cross it. It's also completely outside the legitimate power of the Scottish Government, unless it was done under public health legislation, but given that cases are dropping in England too, you'd have a hell of a time getting away with it.

I think it's just sabre-rattling to keep the lunatic fringe McFreedom types on-side, and still voting SNP. If actually implemented, it would cause a scandal that would infuriate most moderate Scots and most English people, and would also uncomfortably show up how utterly dependent on cross-border trade the Scottish economy is.
 

Huntergreed

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I'm firmly of the belief that the reason she locked down Dumfries and Galloway last weekend was to stop people from Dumfries (the biggest settlement near the border) from going out to drink in Carlisle.

Our region had 11 cases in that last week and she locked us down.

Yesterday, Glasgow has 6 new cases (in one day!) and she didn't seem to consider any action.

Another point is, who, legally, has control of the internal borders between the devolved nations? Is it Westminster or Holyrood?
 

bramling

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I'm firmly of the belief that the reason she locked down Dumfries and Galloway last weekend was to stop people from Dumfries (the biggest settlement near the border) from going out to drink in Carlisle.

Our region had 11 cases in that last week and she locked us down.

Yesterday, Glasgow has 6 new cases (in one day!) and she didn't seem to consider any action.

Another point is, who, legally, has control of the internal borders between the devolved nations? Is it Westminster or Holyrood?

The thing is there isn’t really a border in the true sense. Driving into Wales unless one enters via the Severn Bridge the first thing many people will be aware of is “ARAF” appearing in the road alongside “SLOW”. Scotland doesn’t even have that. The idea of a border suddenly emerging from nothing is completely unviable. Even Trump’s wall has more credibility.

I suspect you’re absolutely right on Carlisle / Dumfries BTW.
 

Journeyman

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I'm firmly of the belief that the reason she locked down Dumfries and Galloway last weekend was to stop people from Dumfries (the biggest settlement near the border) from going out to drink in Carlisle.

That wouldn't surprise me at all. She was desperate for people not to go to English pubs.

Another point is, who, legally, has control of the internal borders between the devolved nations? Is it Westminster or Holyrood?

Does the "border" exist in any meaningful sense anyway? You might be crossing from one country to another, but the UK's external borders are controlled by Westminster, and although there's a bit more to it than that, crossing from England to Scotland is pretty much just a case of crossing from Northumberland to the Scottish Borders council area. I don't think any means exists for closing internal borders and it would probably need emergency legislation.
 

Huntergreed

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I don't think any means exists for closing internal borders and it would probably need emergency legislation.
The key question is which parliament would this legislation have to be passed through? If it's Holyrood then there's a small chance this could happen, if it's Westminster it's simply a non-starter.
 

Bletchleyite

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The thing is there isn’t really a border in the true sense. Driving into Wales unless one enters via the Severn Bridge the first thing many people will be aware of is “ARAF” appearing in the road alongside “SLOW”. Scotland doesn’t even have that. The idea of a border suddenly emerging from nothing is completely unviable. Even Trump’s wall has more credibility.

I suspect you’re absolutely right on Carlisle / Dumfries BTW.

As do I.

If she does do it, I suspect it wouldn't be on the basis of actually conducting border checks, other than possibly on trains. It would be something like mandating the carrying of your driving licence (rather than technically only being required to produce within 7 days etc), then doing random checks along the lines of how the Welsh have stopped English people driving in and walking up Snowdon (though I believe this is now allowed again?)

The tiny number of people walking or cycling across is de-minimis (given the vast swathe of nothingness in the border area, as distinct from Wales where it's near urban areas) and can be largely ignored.
 

Journeyman

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The key question is which parliament would this legislation have to be passed through? If it's Holyrood then there's a small chance this could happen, if it's Westminster it's simply a non-starter.

It would cause yet another deliberately provoked cry of faux outrage from nationalists demanding control of everything, of course. If the Scottish parliament were to vote on it, it could go either way, depending on whether the SNP could get the Greens on-side.
 

Huntergreed

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It would cause yet another deliberately provoked cry of faux outrage from nationalists demanding control of everything, of course. If the Scottish parliament were to vote on it, it could go either way, depending on whether the SNP could get the Greens on-side.
Indeed!

There's this tension brewing in Scotland at the moment between the hardcore nationalists (some of whom went down to the 'Welcome to Scotland' sign near Berwick last weekend with a sign telling the English to **** off) and those who just want a return to normality and are beyond sick of the political point-scoring that Sturgeon is partaking in (whenever we suggest something remotely normal, we always get 'YOU'LL KILL PEOPLE' 'PEOPLE ARE DYING' or, special to Scotland 'WE NEED TO KEEP THOSE ENGLISH ONES OUT'). I would like to think the SNP may lose some seats in May, but I think the opposite may happen.
 

Journeyman

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Indeed!

There's this tension brewing in Scotland at the moment between the hardcore nationalists (some of whom went down to the 'Welcome to Scotland' sign near Berwick last weekend with a sign telling the English to **** off) and those who just want a return to normality and are beyond sick of the political point-scoring that Sturgeon is partaking in (whenever we suggest something remotely normal, we always get 'YOU'LL KILL PEOPLE' 'PEOPLE ARE DYING' or, special to Scotland 'WE NEED TO KEEP THOSE ENGLISH ONES OUT'). I would like to think the SNP may lose some seats in May, but I think the opposite may happen.

Up until now, the SNP have been able to consistently rely on the votes of everyone who wants independence. Sturgeon has made it clear that while she's in charge, she'll fight fair and independence will only come about by a legitimate victory in a legal referendum. Effectively that means it won't happen during the lifetime of this Westminster government. The earliest possible opportunity will probably come if there's a hung parliament in 2024, as the SNP will obviously make an indyref the price of propping up a Labour-led coalition.

It seems to me there's a small hardcore of nationalists that are much more angry and radical, and willing to resort to more extreme measures to get what they want, i.e. civil disobedience or possibly even violence, and want there to be a UDI. It's in their interests to cause severe tension in Anglo-Scottish relations. I think Sturgeon is pandering to them as much as she dares to try and keep them on-side, as there's a risk they might abandon the SNP, and if they do, they'll lose seats. I could be wrong, but it feels like she's playing a dangerous game, and I wish we could just move on from there being essentially one political issue in Scotland.
 

bramling

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Up until now, the SNP have been able to consistently rely on the votes of everyone who wants independence. Sturgeon has made it clear that while she's in charge, she'll fight fair and independence will only come about by a legitimate victory in a legal referendum. Effectively that means it won't happen during the lifetime of this Westminster government. The earliest possible opportunity will probably come if there's a hung parliament in 2024, as the SNP will obviously make an indyref the price of propping up a Labour-led coalition.

It seems to me there's a small hardcore of nationalists that are much more angry and radical, and willing to resort to more extreme measures to get what they want, i.e. civil disobedience or possibly even violence, and want there to be a UDI. It's in their interests to cause severe tension in Anglo-Scottish relations. I think Sturgeon is pandering to them as much as she dares to try and keep them on-side, as there's a risk they might abandon the SNP, and if they do, they'll lose seats. I could be wrong, but it feels like she's playing a dangerous game, and I wish we could just move on from there being essentially one political issue in Scotland.

One could perhaps add to that that Sturgeon must know she will be approaching the point where her “best before date” passes. Indeed the Covid affair has the potential to make or break that depending on whether people feel it has been handled well or badly. Unless he can pull something out of the hat to turn things round Johnson looks certain to fall foul of this. Sturgeon has probably calculated that it’s worth upping the stakes a bit, it’s a high-risk gamble but one which *could* pay off, which is probably more exciting than just withering away and handing over to fresh new blood when all this is over.
 

duncanp

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I don't think the UK government would allow the Scottish government to conduct border checks on trains whilst they are still in England.

Which leaves the Scottish government with the option of conducting these checks at the first station in Scotland, once they had passed the necessary legislation in the Scottish parliament.

It is difficult to imagine how this would work, because a train terminating at Edinburgh Waverley, having run non stop from Newcastle, could have several hundred people on board, all of whom would need to be processed, regardless of their nationality.

There are also many stations in Scotland where trains that originate in England stop at, such as Sanqhuar, Kilmaurs, Corrour, Aviemore..etc. How would you determine whether someone who alights at Kilmarnock, for example, has travelled from a station in England or Scotland. You could, of course, check tickets, but there is nothing to stop someone who travels from Carlisle to Kilmarnock from splitting the journey at Dumfries, and just showing the Dumfries - Kilmarnock ticket when alighting.

I suspect that Nicola Sturgeon knows in her heart of hearts that trying to "quarantine" people travelling from England is impractical, as she has been very quiet on the practical details of how it would be implemented. She just wants Boris to say "no", and then use that to try and gain support from nationalists in the election next year.

She is also very quiet on the fact that this "quarantine" would have to apply to Scottish residents returning from a trip to England, as well as English visitors to Scotland. Not to mention the considerable cost of implementing such a scheme, all of which would be borne by Scottish taxpayers.
 

Bletchleyite

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Indeed!

There's this tension brewing in Scotland at the moment between the hardcore nationalists (some of whom went down to the 'Welcome to Scotland' sign near Berwick last weekend with a sign telling the English to **** off) and those who just want a return to normality and are beyond sick of the political point-scoring that Sturgeon is partaking in (whenever we suggest something remotely normal, we always get 'YOU'LL KILL PEOPLE' 'PEOPLE ARE DYING' or, special to Scotland 'WE NEED TO KEEP THOSE ENGLISH ONES OUT'). I would like to think the SNP may lose some seats in May, but I think the opposite may happen.

What, fundamentally, is wrong with her doing her best for Scotland, though? I'd like a separate English Parliament that would do the best for England, myself, with a federal structure. I find in England we lose out in many ways because all our policies have to take into account the other nations. And getting rid of COVID is in the interest of Scottish people.
 

Journeyman

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What, fundamentally, is wrong with her doing her best for Scotland, though? I'd like a separate English Parliament that would do the best for England, myself, with a federal structure. I find in England we lose out in many ways because all our policies have to take into account the other nations. And getting rid of COVID is in the interest of Scottish people.

But "doing her best" for Scotland is only governing in the interests of those in favour of independence, and COVID elimination is nigh-on impossible without trashing the economy completely.
 

Richard Scott

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What, fundamentally, is wrong with her doing her best for Scotland, though? I'd like a separate English Parliament that would do the best for England, myself, with a federal structure. I find in England we lose out in many ways because all our policies have to take into account the other nations. And getting rid of COVID is in the interest of Scottish people.
Is an independent Scotland actually best for Scottish people - would love to see the creative accounts that prove that one!
 

Journeyman

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Is an independent Scotland actually best for Scottish people - would love to see the creative accounts that prove that one!

I'm an Englishman who is married to a Scot, and has lived in Scotland for ten years. I also have enough Irish blood in me to qualify for a passport, so I have roots across the UK and Ireland. I'd say I primarily identify as British, and I have no partucularly strong feelings on my national identity. As such, I approach the independence question pragmatically.

I can understand the emotional and political reasons for wanting independence, but, oh my, it's economic suicide. For that reason I oppose it.
 

MotCO

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Any attempt to set up 'border control' would surely be a dry run if ever Scotland attains independence. If Scotland insist on rejoining the EU (why swap one 'master' for another?), then there will have to be an enforced border due to a potentially different tariff regime, and certainly a different currency regime (any new EU applicant has to join the Euro).
 

Journeyman

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Any attempt to set up 'border control' would surely be a dry run if ever Scotland attains independence. If Scotland insist on rejoining the EU (why swap one 'master' for another?), then there will have to be an enforced border due to a potentially different tariff regime, and certainly a different currency regime (any new EU applicant has to join the Euro).

Another reason why I oppose independence. As someone who lives one side of the border and regularly works on the other, it has the potential to make my life significantly more inconvenient and expensive.
 

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It's also completely outside the legitimate power of the Scottish Government, unless it was done under public health legislation,
Border control is not a devolved matter. It is no more in the power of the Scottish Assembly to prevent entry from England than it is to prevent entry from the USA. To try to do so under public health legislation (which is devolved) would almost certainly be struck out.
 

Journeyman

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Border control is not a devolved matter. It is no more in the power of the Scottish Assembly to prevent entry from England than it is to prevent entry from the USA. To try to do so under public health legislation (which is devolved) would almost certainly be struck out.

Pointless constitutional conflict incoming...
 

kylemore

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One could perhaps add to that that Sturgeon must know she will be approaching the point where her “best before date” passes. Indeed the Covid affair has the potential to make or break that depending on whether people feel it has been handled well or badly. Unless he can pull something out of the hat to turn things round Johnson looks certain to fall foul of this. Sturgeon has probably calculated that it’s worth upping the stakes a bit, it’s a high-risk gamble but one which *could* pay off, which is probably more exciting than just withering away and handing over to fresh new blood when all this is over.
There is also the side benefit of avoiding the fallout from the Alex Salmond trial for just that little bit longer - I'm sure she could hardly believe her luck when covid came along!
 

PaulC1309

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There is an awful lot of anti English blatant racism being stirred up on social media just now and this is being fuelled by talk of border controls. I find it very concerning and embarrassing that it is being almost encouraged by the various statements from Sturgeon and the SNP. Some of the comments being spouted on the SNPs own Facebook page are disgraceful. I am a proud Scot incidentally and am not entirely opposed to the idea of independence but the way some are behaving is shocking
 

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She could use her power over the transport system to block every road across the border and stop all train traffic.
 

mmh

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Another reason why I oppose independence. As someone who lives one side of the border and regularly works on the other, it has the potential to make my life significantly more inconvenient and expensive.

Independence needn't mean border controls, although the more extreme supporters of independence would like it to.
 

Huntergreed

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Independence needn't mean border controls, although the more extreme supporters of independence would like it to.
If it did, I, amongst many others I know, would just move to England. I have no time for the hardcore extreme nationalism that’s becoming more and more common and apparent up here.
 

Journeyman

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Independence needn't mean border controls, although the more extreme supporters of independence would like it to.

The SNP have already decided they want a Scottish pound, and a land border between an EU nation and a non-EU nation, if Scotland rejoins, would need at least some border formalities.

If it did, I, amongst many others I know, would just move to England. I have no time for the hardcore extreme nationalism that’s becoming more and more common and apparent up here.

I'm originally from England, and if any sort of border controls were introduced, I too would move back.
 

Richard Scott

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The SNP have already decided they want a Scottish pound, and a land border between an EU nation and a non-EU nation, if Scotland rejoins, would need at least some border formalities.



I'm originally from England, and if any sort of border controls were introduced, I too would move back.
My sister is now talking of moving back to England as she's saying the SNP and Nationalism now getting much worse than when she moved there in 2014 plus the extra £3000 income tax she pays over what she'd pay in England (she's not moving because of this as accepts that how it is but it makes the decision to move easier). When referendum occured before there were a number of businesses prepared to head the same way. Can't see Scottish economy being much cop.
 
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