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Could Southeastern run trains to Clapham Junction?

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CNash

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Just a hypothetical and I have no idea whether it's been asked before, but could Southeastern have trains run to (or through) Clapham Junction? This would allow passengers from the south-east travelling to the south-west (and vice-versa) to change easily to SWT's services without having to enter Zone 1, or changing via Southern along the Victoria route, and allow them to avoid the large increase in fare.

Obviously, if changing the infrastructure is required, this is hardly likely to happen - imagine, NR undertaking millions of pounds of work that will actually lose them money (via reduced fares) in the long run! - but my question is whether it's tecnically possible.
 
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yorksrob

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The simplest route for them to do this would be to take the curve at Factory Junction, but then they'd need to reverse at Clapham Jnc to get back to a London terminal.

Theoretically you could also run Beckenham Junction, Birbeck, then reach London and Clapham Junction via Crystal Palace. It would be a bit off the beaten track though there might be pathing issues.
 

swt_passenger

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The logical ways of doing this are either to use the route the LO SLL trains will take, via Wandsworth Rd, Factory Jn and the Ludgate lines into the new Clapham Jn P2, or use the similar route but stay on the Battersea lines, from where there's a single lead junction onto the Brighton fast lines.

This is of course pretty much theoretical, the former as the LO services already use the terminating capacity that can be easily reached, and the latter as it means a conflicting flat crossing of the up fast line to the down fast. However there are feight services that do this once day, but you'd never fit anything in during the peaks.

Even if it were possible, you could only really divert services rather than introduce new, and you'd have the same resistance to change as seen with taking the SLL service away from Victoria and London Bridge and diverting it to Dalston Jn. People seem to actually prefer services into Zone 1 terminals...
 

Peter Mugridge

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One way of doing this would be a joing SWT / SE service from Reading to Dover or Ramsgate using the low level connections just to the east of Clapham Junction, although pathing between Reading and Clapham might appear to be the weak point here there was at one time 4 trains per hour Reading - Waterloo so a path *might* be available.

Between Clapham Junction at Kent there is less of a pathing problem since the Eurostar services were diverted away from their original route.

It would provide a useful way of directing some passengers away from the "via London" and reducing a bit of pressure on the Underground, though I am not sure how many people travel do across between Berkshire and Kent.
 

Ivo

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One way of doing this would be a joing SWT / SE service from Reading to Dover or Ramsgate using the low level connections just to the east of Clapham Junction, although pathing between Reading and Clapham might appear to be the weak point here there was at one time 4 trains per hour Reading - Waterloo so a path *might* be available.

Between Clapham Junction at Kent there is less of a pathing problem since the Eurostar services were diverted away from their original route.

It would provide a useful way of directing some passengers away from the "via London" and reducing a bit of pressure on the Underground, though I am not sure how many people travel do across between Berkshire and Kent.

West Staines, no question. West of Whitton, should be OK. Twickenham is the real issue, unless you look into running via Hounslow.
 

Matt Taylor

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There is no capacity on the Whitton-barnes via Richmond section due to the level crossings at North Sheen, Mortlake and Barnes. There may be paths via Brentford but then you hit the Barnes-Queenstown Road section which is a huge bottle neck.
 

VTPreston_Tez

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Couldn't these trains just mostly split up at somewhere in the southeast with like 4 carriages going to the London terminal and the other 4 going to Clapham or even extending to Richmond/Wimbledon? Thoughts?
 

JonathanH

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There is no capacity on the Whitton-barnes via Richmond section due to the level crossings at North Sheen, Mortlake and Barnes. There may be paths via Brentford but then you hit the Barnes-Queenstown Road section which is a huge bottle neck.

Is there any formal agreement or requirement to consult which says that services could never be improved to the extent that it causes the level crossing barriers to be down more than they are at the moment. I know that Airlink was killed by this but would, say, 4 Reading trains via Richmond an hour cause anti-railway protests?

Jonathan
 

Safety365

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...but then you hit the Barnes-Queenstown Road section which is a huge bottle neck.

Can the reversible not be utilised a bit more? I often wonder - when I'm an Up Windsor - why I'm crawling behind a Kingston rounder at Queens-town Rd and why I'm not just sent up the reversible.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Couldn't these trains just mostly split up at somewhere in the southeast with like 4 carriages going to the London terminal and the other 4 going to Clapham or even extending to Richmond/Wimbledon? Thoughts?

I'm not sure Clapham Junction traffic would muster the sort of numbers needed to either warrant extending trains or diverting carriages away from London. As for extending it further into South West London, I think you'd struggle for paths out of Junction, certainly convenient ones.
 

Tomnick

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Couldn't these trains just mostly split up at somewhere in the southeast with like 4 carriages going to the London terminal and the other 4 going to Clapham or even extending to Richmond/Wimbledon? Thoughts?
Running two 'short' trains into the London area doesn't sound like the best way to use capacity on a route that's not got a lot of spare capacity!
 

swt_passenger

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People also seem to be forgetting that to run from the Ludgate lines through Clapham Jn, requires down trains to cross both the Windsor side up lines, that wouldn't be easily fitted into the existing timetable.

They do it with the odd offpeak charter train, but it would be far more difficult in the peaks...
 

VTPreston_Tez

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Running two 'short' trains into the London area doesn't sound like the best way to use capacity on a route that's not got a lot of spare capacity!

It would probably be 6 - how about running up to Victoria then, an already SE terminal?
Similarly, is there market for a cross-London tunnel or will the Chenley/Crossrail already cover this issue which would be operated as like a "West Thameslink" in essence, operated by Southeastern which would head up north so eventually allowing Watford-Ashford services? Just a thought if SE can serve CLJ, it might work (or even just go via the WLL calling at West Brompton, Kensington Olympia, Willesden, and Watford?)
 
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