Could the railways handle storm disruption better?

[dk1]

No matter what anyone says, I think the railway do a wonderful job at handling such difficult and unpredictable situations. There are very few if any other industries who have deal with such land mass and complicated scenarios. Cut them some slack sometimes & get out of your unexpert armchairs.

 

[tnjmorris]

My experiance today with the wonderful TfW, coming home from Cardiff Queen Street to Cogan I checked websites and everything looked OK. Got to QS and Barry Island trains cancelled. A Bridgend train was the next chance, that turned up as a 2 car, which as it was the first to central for about 25 minutes was absolutely rammed. As they knew that they would not be running services N of Pontypridd could they not get the services south of there to 4 car? Anyway got cancelled at Central due to an unsafe structure at Grangetown which I accept is beyond thir control.Will stick to the bus from now on, proper real time information, a seat and much more flexibility

 

[Scott M]

I think one of the best ways for us to handle storm disruption better is to better storm proof the railway. Flooding keeps happening in the same sorts of places. Something needs to be done to reduce flooding and issues on the railway during storms.

Agreed, prevention is always better than cure.

Some storms are just going to cause disruption and there is nothing that can be done about that. But there are definitely problem areas that could be addressed. The section between Derby and Sheffield gets flooded a lot during extreme weather, so better flood-proofing on this section of line would be a massive help. The Dawlish coast section would likely benefit from being shut down and re-routed as this is also a constant source of problems, and is likely a lost cause being built so close to the sea.

 

[Dai Corner]

Agreed, prevention is always better than cure.

Some storms are just going to cause disruption and there is nothing that can be done about that. But there are definitely problem areas that could be addressed. The section between Derby and Sheffield gets flooded a lot during extreme weather, so better flood-proofing on this section of line would be a massive help. The Dawlish coast section would likely benefit from being shut down and re-routed as this is also a constant source of problems, and is likely a lost cause being built so close to the sea.

How much extra tax or fares are you prepared to pay to fund all these?

 

[Scott M]

How much extra tax or fares are you prepared to pay to fund all these?

One could argue money would be saved in the long-run due to less delay repay claims from the same problem areas. Tax money could also be re-routed from other areas.

 

[The Planner]

One could argue money would be saved in the long-run due to less delay repay claims from the same problem areas. Tax money could also be re-routed from other areas.

How long is the long run? The delay repay costs would be miniscule in comparison to the capital costs.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Most things are predictable if you have the data, and the desire to do so.

The NHS can, and does, place ambulances to areas of greatest predicted need by time of day and week. Similarly any good police control room knows roughly where the fights will be on Friday night. Not the exact house, but by postcode sector. Ditto the fire service and environment agency in their respective professional areas.

As has been shown, the railways also have that knowledge and use it. For example by 'deploying the sausage' when necessary. I think Network Rail generally do a good job and have people out in all weathers trying to fix things when they go wrong. Sometimes I think they could be a bit quicker at getting a route re-opened, but they have their constraints in terms of staff and budgets.

The issue I have is with TOCS abandoning the whole service in anticipation of storms, advising passengers not to travel, and not implementing contingency plans for those who do travel, or who are already travelling. Yes, the people who set out in Ciara or Dennis to get that new pair of trainers on Sunday were fools for ignoring the advice, but only in some parts of the country. Elsewhere, there were only yellow or amber warnings in place, life continued except for those reliant upon the train service.

Last week EMR abandoned the Crewe to Derby service in it's entirety.

Yesterday LNR ran a 1/3 service around the Stoke-on-Trent wobble in the morning, why? I guess they had insufficient staff volunteering to work. Did they communicate this to anyone? No. In the afternoon an 'overhead line' incident occurred between Stafford and Crewe and they abandoned the whole service for the remainder of the day. Their own 'live trains' feature, on their own website, entirely under their own control, which they refer passengers to in times of disruption, continued to show trains as operating and on time. Why wouldn't the average passenger set out based on that information? It was clear, bright and sunny but with a couple of sudden very heavy storms with strong winds. The average passenger doesn't have the knowledge to know to look at real data coming, ultimately, from the same source.

TOCS need to publish timely and accurate information to passengers, enabling them to make decisions about their travel plans. Alternatively direct people to the more competent and accurate sources such as RTT! If a TOC gets a reputation for pushing out information that is clearly incorrect, passengers will simply stop taking any notice of that information.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I got dumped out of the Lime St to Manchester Airport service on Sunday 9th Feb. just as we were about to depart Piccadilly. Not a chance in hell of getting any help from Northern. They were no RR buses laid on subsequently either. It was every man for themselves.

 

[Scott M]

How long is the long run? The delay repay costs would be miniscule in comparison to the capital costs.

I mean how much does it actually cost to make locations more flood-proof? Must be at least a few cheap ways of doing it - better drainage, water diversion?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I mean how much does it actually cost to make locations more flood-proof? Must be at least a few cheap ways of doing it - better drainage, water diversion?

£millions, even for a bit of bunding alongside a river. Start work near the live railway and costs increase dramatically - not least for the costs of compensating TOCS and providing RRB's for passengers. Start raising tracks and bridges, as was done south of Oxford recently, and you get into serious money.

Plus, all you do is move the problem somewhere else. A flooded railway, whilst inconvenient, is much better than a flooded village in most peoples books.

 

[Dai Corner]

I mean how much does it actually cost to make locations more flood-proof? Must be at least a few cheap ways of doing it - better drainage, water diversion?

They have to look at each location on its merits. They've spent millions at critical spots such as Cowley Bridge Junction and Chipping Sodbury Tunnel. Similar sums could not be justified on a quiet branch line.

If you have to close a line for months to raise it a couple of metres, how many days' closure would it save over the next 50 years?

 

[Scott M]

£millions, even for a bit of bunding alongside a river. Start work near the live railway and costs increase dramatically - not least for the costs of compensating TOCS and providing RRB's for passengers. Start raising tracks and bridges, as was done south of Oxford recently, and you get into serious money.

Plus, all you do is move the problem somewhere else. A flooded railway, whilst inconvenient, is much better than a flooded village in most peoples books.

Didn't realise it would run into the millions if I am honest. Thought they could just add some extra drainage for maybe £100k, but then I am no engineer.

They have to look at each location on its merits. They've spent millions at critical spots such as Cowley Bridge Junction and Chipping Sodbury Tunnel. Similar sums could not be justified on a quiet branch line.

Agreed it is not cost-effective on branch lines, but relatively well-trodden lines like Derby-Sheffield I would argue it is worth it.

 

[Scott M]

If you have to close a line for months to raise it a couple of metres, how many days' closure would it save over the next 50 years?

Good point. Although if you do it with a less-invasive measure then line closures could potentially be avoided if work done overnight.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Given the amount of rain we seem to be getting of late, I need to go into a dark room and invent the floating train.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Didn't realise it would run into the millions if I am honest. Thought they could just add some extra drainage for maybe £100k, but then I am no engineer.

Construction, of all types, has got very expensive in this country. Perhaps the Chinese can do us another deal - see the thread on their HS2 offer

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Given the amount of rain we seem to be getting of late, I need to go into a dark room and invent the floating train.

Submarine train, sealed against water ingress, heavy enough to stay on the track.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

You don't get much done during a 3 or 4 hour overnight possession which is the norm nowadays. Even if you put in more drainage where do you send that water if all around is flooded. I helped repair the Dawlish, Teignmouth and Penzance storm damage as well as the Somerset levels flooding damage, mother nature is a force to be reckoned with and will always win, all we do is put off the inevitable.

 

[sheff1]

So in essence what I would propose is that the rule should be that if any TOC declares "do not travel" for whatever reason, any ticket, of whatever type, that was purchased before that declaration and has validity on that TOC should gain Anytime validity during any period of say two days before and two days after for the entirety of the journey, and that should also apply to a sequence of contiguous splits other than them remaining routed via the split point.

Something along those lines is certainly needed.

I would hope under the circumstances most TOC's would be flexible over tickets

"Hope" and "most TOCs" is not good enough. All TOCs need to operate to the same criteria - something along the lines of the suggestion above.

What about having one provider of services, wouldn't that help?

Now you are just being silly .

>>>>>>>>>>>>

Additionally, all relevant information sources within the control of the railway industry should show consistent correct information. Over the last two weekends NRE said one thing yet, in some cases, TOC sites said something different (and in at least one case gave no indication at all that there was any disruption).

Finally, if passengers are left stranded short of their destination TOCs should meet their obligations under the NRCoT without quibble.

 

[Dai Corner]

Submarine train, sealed against water ingress, heavy enough to stay on the track.

(Whispers) Hyperloop.

 

[Bald Rick]

I mean how much does it actually cost to make locations more flood-proof? Must be at least a few cheap ways of doing it - better drainage, water diversion?

Drainage only works if there is somewhere down hill for the water to go. It Can get very expensive, very quickly.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Some places, yes, but not others. There were literally scores of places that flooded this weekend, and a majority of them were not repeat sites.

I understand the River Wye at Hereford was at its highest point today since records began? I hope Donald is listening?

 

[Dai Corner]

Drainage only works if there is somewhere down hill for the water to go. It Can get very expensive, very quickly.

Here's an article about one of the examples I gave earlier. Chipping Sodbury Tunnel

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2017/10/13/chipping-sodbury-tunnel-a-saturated-environment/

 

[Furryanimal]

Here in southeast Wales TFW have ticket acceptance in place with local bus operators with the Marches line closed and replacement buses not running because of flooded roads.That is good.
We are forecast another deluge on Wednesday and there are worries about arrangements that may be in place at the weekend for the rugby in Cardiff.
It has been suggested in local press that the Marches line could be closed until next Monday.How many buses do you need to transport the extra thousands heading for a rugby international?

 

[Bovverboy]

I remember Moreton in Marsh being flooded approx. 15 years ago. It was wholly caused by the incapacity of the unmaintained roadside gullies on the A44/A429 to shift the water fast enough. Whether regular maintenance (i.e. clearing the bloody things) would have prevented it altogether is a moot point, but it certainly didn't help.

If all the gullies appeared to be blocked the likelihood is that it was actually the capacity of the sewer which had been exceeded. If a gully is blocked, that fact should be apparent whether it rains or it doesn't. If a gully isn't emptied often enough the first thing that will happen is debris will be unnecessarily allowed to enter the sewerage system, the avoidance of which is the whole point of having the gully.
What makes you believe that the gullies on the A44/A429 were 'unmaintained'?

 

[Bald Rick]

Here's an article about one of the examples I gave earlier. Chipping Sodbury Tunnel

https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2017/10/13/chipping-sodbury-tunnel-a-saturated-environment/

Good article.

And guess what - they’ve had more water in there than ever recorded, and despite all this work it flooded today (which was not expected)

 

[Llanigraham]

Finally, if passengers are left stranded short of their destination TOCs should meet their obligations under the NRCoT without quibble.

And how do they do that when there is no road transport available of any kind, and as has happened today the station is inaccessible?

 

[Dr Hoo]

Agreed, prevention is always better than cure.

Some storms are just going to cause disruption and there is nothing that can be done about that. But there are definitely problem areas that could be addressed. The section between Derby and Sheffield gets flooded a lot during extreme weather, so better flood-proofing on this section of line would be a massive help. The Dawlish coast section would likely benefit from being shut down and re-routed as this is also a constant source of problems, and is likely a lost cause being built so close to the sea.

Worth noting that the area has quite a bit of resilience with diversionary routes. I have variously been diverted via Beighton, the Erewash Valley and Stenson Junction to avoid areas of flooding with East Midlands and CrossCountry without it being a big deal. Clear run today though, even though the Derwent was very high.

 

[Llanigraham]

I understand the River Wye at Hereford was at its highest point today since records began? I hope Donald is listening?

Wye was at it's highest recorded level in Hereford and they have now announced "Danger to Life" in Ross on Wye and Monmouth and are closing roads.
Ditto the Severn in Shrewsbury and now Worcester.

 

[Grumpy Git]

If all the gullies appeared to be blocked the likelihood is that it was actually the capacity of the sewer which had been exceeded. If a gully is blocked, that fact should be apparent whether it rains or it doesn't. If a gully isn't emptied often enough the first thing that will happen is debris will be unnecessarily allowed to enter the sewerage system, the avoidance of which is the whole point of having the gully.
What makes you believe that the gullies on the A44/A429 were 'unmaintained'?

OK, restricted (by poor / non-existant maintenance).

 

[SuperNova]

Of course they know about where many places on the railway will flood, if somewhere floods once, without protection it’ll flood again, just look at the Conwy valley railway...

And if a TOC gets in RRB (if it is even available) and it doesn't flood - are you the passenger willing to pay more money in fares to offset the cost of this?