Could there be demand for loco-hauled MK3s in preservation?

Discussion in 'Railtours & Preservation' started by alexl92, 9 May 2019.

  1. Peter Mugridge

    Peter Mugridge Established Member

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    Are you thinking of 99968 in the Royal Scotsman ( screenshot image below )?

    I think I'd personally prefer the air conditioned version.

    upload_2019-5-22_21-59-25.png
     
  2. Bevan Price

    Bevan Price Established Member

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    By sliding ventilators, I meant the type of sliding windows used in most passenger saloons prior to introduction of AirCon stock.
    Central door locking would need to be removed unless steam locos were fitted with electrical generators. Now that is not unknown - some Austrian narrow guage steam locos had small generators many years ago, but I think they only generated enough power to supply coach lighting, not train heating, etc.
     
  3. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    You could probably quite easily run LED lighting and CDL off axle generators and batteries, to be honest. It's aircon and heating that is the big load (retrofit steam heat?)
     
  4. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Yes, that's the one, thanks.
     
  5. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    240V? Loco hauled Mark 3s have 850V supply.
     
  6. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    Anyone fitting steam heat to a Mark 3 would be absolutely stark raving bonkers.
     
  7. Fawkes Cat

    Fawkes Cat Member

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    I'm not sure how one gets round the braking, but surely the obvious solution to ETH etc is to include a diesel locomotive in the rake - presumably just behind the steam engine, or possibly at the back of the train. Most (ideally all) of the time it just acts as a glorified generator car - but if the steam locomotive fails, then you've already got motive force there which will get the train home - even if not in the steam driven glory that was intended.
     
  8. option

    option Member

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    Considering what it would cost to do the necessary works, probably makes most sense if they were used for services with higher revenue per passenger, so mainline charters, dining trains on the mainline & heritage lines, etc
     
  9. option

    option Member

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    HST sets have a 415V supply, & use for the air-con, which they convert to 110Vdc for lighting etc
    Loco hauled have 850V supply.

    Porterbrook have it listed as '700-1000v ac or dc feed'

    So, there is potentially 5 different electrical systems, & the only way to supply them is if you have a loco with ETS.
    Add in how old some of the equipment is, & whether it would stay on carriages sold into private hands (would the ROSCOS take it for spares, would the air-con units have to be removed & disposed of properly, etc)

    If your ripping out the sealed windows to put in openers then pointless having air-con. Even if you keep air-con, it's going to be easier, & cheaper, to use 230V units.
    Lighting? Likely replacing that anyway, so led's run off a 230V transformer.
    PA/sound system? New one on 230V


    Why would you try & retain all the old stuff, which is going to be difficult to maintain & source parts/replacements for?
     
  10. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    A static inverter system could be fitted in place of the motor-alternator (and would eliminate many moving parts), and could potentially be fed from AC using a rectifier/adaptor with minimal further modification.
     
  11. option

    option Member

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    Ireland are using 230V on their stock
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-end_power#Ireland


    Take 1 Mk3 TGS. Fit axle-driven alternators to provide 230V. Fit battery system using used ev batteries (can then be charged from shore power). Fit generator as backup.
    All modern, off the shelf, stuff.
     
  12. Fawkes Cat

    Fawkes Cat Member

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    Isn't that the basic modus operandi of the railway preservation movement?
     
  13. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    Vehicles that have been sold into preservation thus far have largely been basically complete. Certainly got key bits like MA sets and aircon units fitted. And there is no shortage of spares sources given the number of vehicles coming off lease in the near future. That assumes though that anyone buying knows what they are doing.
     
  14. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    Thought so. I think that it would be easier to fit them, and I also think that the support coach mentioned earlier works well with sliding ventilators.

    -Peter
     
  15. option

    option Member

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    Preservation, as in stick it in a museum to be looked at, or heritage, doing the best to recreate a certain period in history?


    Plenty of Mk1 carriages with new structural members, new doors, new seats, new flooring, new electrics, etc etc
    Steam & diesel locos with new components
    New station buildings
    New track


    The Mk3 carriages are nowhere near original/as-built, so what would you be trying to preserve?
    Any that end up on heritage lines will need more than a repaint, & they will need to be maintained, & earn their keep.
     
  16. S4

    S4 New Member

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    That's only a problem if you can't cope without a piece of paper that was written back in 1980 along with a test box that was built at the same time.

    Somebody with a brain, said instructions, the drawings and an understanding of what is trying to be acheived can produce the same results as the 'specialist testing unit'.
     
  17. reddragon

    reddragon Member

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    Peter,

    Most preserved Diesel locos were / are still in service when bought for preservation, as were most Mk1s.

    Unfortunately, those running Heritage Railways are of an age that remember steam + mark 1s and that is what pulls in the revenue. Thats even to the point of new build steam.

    It is a sad fact that little of what you have got to know will be preserved, no EMUs, few DMUs and there are today few locos, mostly too complex to save and too big.

    The class 37 makes the perfect heritage diesel as its popular, ideally sized & cheap to maintain as are Mk1s.

    Mk3s are too complex, contain life expired components and are a nightmare to maintain due to their design & corrosion. Charter stock yes, if converted & updated.

    Hey, you might see HST power cars hauling Mk1s!!
     
  18. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    I would definitely love to see some of the EMUs and DMUs that I have seen on the national network be preserved, but, as heritage railways will, understandably, go through and electrify their lines with OHLE or 3rd rail there is no chance of seeing something like a 387 somewhere like the Severn Valley Railway! :)
    I would still like to see at least 8 Mk3s preserved, so that someone somewhere can make an old GWR rake, but 43s and Mk1s? No! :) Talk about "Hornby railways"!

    -Peter
     
  19. MKC25

    MKC25 Member

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    Daft question....but how much would a stored MK3 cost to buy? (for a preserved railway?)
     
  20. Spartacus

    Spartacus Established Member

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    There's lines that are getting rid of their Mk2s due to them being more difficult to maintain than Mk1s, and having more limited appeal, so I can't see Mk3s catching on except if someone has a power car or two. It's hard enough to find people with the skills required sometimes as it is, never mind finding someone with an extra special set of skills. Nothing apart from power cars really looks out of place at the head of a rake of Mk1s all the way up to 89001.
     
  21. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    As always with such things, it depends... Anyone who knows how much those sold so far have gone for isn't going to make the number public - they're bound by commercial confidentiality.
     
  22. reddragon

    reddragon Member

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    I miss travelling on old slam door southern stock, in particular the REPs and the class 309s both of which would work as LH stock.

    Corrosion issues, complex electric, air braking & aircon would have to be dealt with, that and HSTs only can work HST Mk3s and therefore only LH Mk3s will survive, with opening windows and simplified equipment.

    Come on, 2 power cars and a rake of Mk1s would be a haulage first!!

    Realistically though, a rake of GWR 1st class Mk3 coaches between 2 power cars on dining services would go down well as longer more interest rail-tours would work.
     
  23. eldomtom2

    eldomtom2 Member

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    I can't help but express doubt that nostalgia is the primary motive for visitors to heritage railways. Steam locomotives have proven to have plenty of appeal to the under-60 crowd...
     
  24. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    Fair - but I still think that nostalgia plays a big part in why people go to heritage railways. I agree with your point that steam engines appeal to those who don't remember steam on British Railways (or earlier), but when I have been to heritage railways, many of the people there seem to be old enough to remember those "good old days".

    -Peter
     
  25. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    Sadly, I never got to travel on any of the Southern slam door stock, but when I have sen videos of them from the time they were running, I can see how good they would be on a heritage line. However, there is only one heritage line with any 3rd rail (to my knowledge but I can't remember the name; I want to say Bluebell) and so any preserved stock would have to run on the mainline or that one heritage route!
    Yes, I agree that a couple of 43s and Mk1s would be interesting to see, how practical it is, I do not know! :) Last time I remember that our country's heritage railways were not called "Hornby Triang"! :)*
    I would definitely love to see GWR run the occasional railtour using a HST rake. It would definitely get my attention, seen as I remember the "good old days" of the Class 43 on the GWML, as they'll be known in a few years' time!

    *As much as I moan, it's all meant in good spirit and I would actually like to see someone attempt a 43 & Mk1 rake. Maybe they could repaint the Mk1s into the same colour scheme as the power cars; e.g. GWR power cars = GWR+FGW Mk1s, Intercity Swallow 43s = Intercity Swallow Mk1s, etc.!

    -
    Peter
     
  26. gazthomas

    gazthomas Established Member

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    No heritage lines have 3rd rail
     
  27. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    I seem to remember seeing something in a magazine about it. I'll look it up.

    I've just had a look in my old magazines and Railways Illustrated says that a small section of 3rd rail was installed at Lydney on the Dean Forest Railway. I've put the magazine down somewhere and I can't find it but when I do I'll post a small section of what the article says. It says the 3rd rail was installed in February.

    -Peter
     
  28. gazthomas

    gazthomas Established Member

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    I saw that on 1st April and assumed it to be an April's Fool stunt
     
  29. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    Oh OK. I still can't find my magazine so I only have the information already provided.

    -Peter
     
  30. Firstof5

    Firstof5 New Member

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    A short dead secton was put in at the Dean Forest for tamper training, its not much longer than 50m
     

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