Could there be demand for loco-hauled MK3s in preservation?

Discussion in 'Railtours & Preservation' started by alexl92, 9 May 2019.

  1. mpthomson

    mpthomson Member

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    Depends on the value of scrap metals at the point of sale. That's what drives the price of withdrawn vehicles that have no further use on the regular rail network and any sales to other heritage rail etc would need to be at a higher price than they could be sold for scrap. ROSCOs exist to make a profit at the end of the day, so are unlikely to heavily discount for preservationists.
     
  2. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Aren't the A1 Steam locomotive trust looking at a rake of Mkiii's to run with Tornado?
     
  3. Tempest3K

    Tempest3K Member

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    Yep, and Tornado's already been tested on 125 Groups MK3's at GCRN :)
     
  4. Steptoe

    Steptoe Member

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    And to complement the Mid-Norfolk's rake of Mk 3's : (apologies for not being able to stand far away enough to also include these in the picture but I was on gate duties) IMG_0005.JPG
     
  5. mushroomchow

    mushroomchow Member

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    I always felt that it's something of a no-brainer for railtour companies to acquire Mk. 3s for their services. With a little modification you have a 125mph-capable coach that is popular with passengers, allows "bashers" to still have the vestibule windows down and, as Tornado's run with the 125 group's rake at the GCRN showed, actually looks pretty good behind a steam loco. Purists need not apply, because quite frankly it's hard to even make the argument that it isn't "authentic" on a network with increasingly scarce period equipment and locomotives regularly travelling far beyond their original ground.

    There's only so long Mk. 1 stock is going to remain viable on the national network outside of scenic routes with tighter clearances - for main line use, it's time for an upgrade.
     
  6. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    “Windows down for bashers” on the main line is a strict no these days. ORR are taking an interest.
     
  7. underbank

    underbank Member

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    Surely it makes more sense for the existing main line mark 1/2 rakes to be cascaded to the preserved lines and for the mark 3s to be used on mainline charters? I would have thought a lot of the heritage line mark 1 stock is getting pretty close to scrap now after so many years of use. A cascade of the charter stock would liven up their fleets and allow for the worst to be withdrawn.
     
  8. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    I have no anecdotal evidence, but I'd imagine that many of the preserved railway's mark 1 fleets are in better condition than some of the main line rakes in terms of both external corrosion and internal condition, having been treated more gently and enjoyed more focused attention from a dedicated group of staff/volunteers. Personally I wouldn't wish to foist the S.R.P.S or West Coast mark 1 rakes on any preserved line with their existing fleets of often meticulously kept carriages.
     
  9. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

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    Definitely true.
    It’s worth looking at some of the really good Mk1 restoration jobs on some preserved lines this last few years.
    I remember reading about one on the Bluebell a few years back (it may have been a green liveried CK), the job they’d done on it was absolutely superb. Right up there with the work done on their much older wooden bodied stock.

    Lots of these lines are cultivating a BR steam era image, and as these vehicles get older they will become more and more classic and therefore increasingly valuable rather than something that needs replacing with a newer version.
    Otherwise they might as well have done away with all of the older stock once the Mk1s became available. I’m sure some lines possibly did, but any elderly carriage in decent nick is much valued now.
     
  10. Tom B

    Tom B Established Member

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    On a GNER HST a couple of weeks ago I saw fresh, hastily applied stickers warning about sticking heads out of windows, three per droplight? Is this following the incident nr Bristol a little while ago?
     
  11. 43096

    43096 Established Member

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    It is the result of both that incident and the recommendations of the investigation into the Balham Class 442 incident.
     
  12. underbank

    underbank Member

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    Surely depends on a line by line basis. I know the volunteers of lots of preserved lines spent a lot of time and effort on their "special" coaches (i.e. the ones brought out for special occasions), but not so sure about their day to day utility fleets. A few months ago, I went on the ELR and our rake of coaches were pretty miserable looking, broken (chipped) sink in the toilet cubicle and loo that didn't flush, vestibule doors stuck 3/4 open and generally filthy inside and out, flaking paint, rust, etc. Last Summer I did a mainline tour on Mark 1s which were in far better condition and a lot cleaner.
     
  13. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Yeah it is horses for courses to an extent: I'm surprised you found stock in such a poor condition on the East Lancs, as from my experience they're one of the better preserved lines for maintaining their carriages and I've never encountered one in the condition you describe; but I would agree that the main line rake of, for example, Saphos Trains mark 1s is in a better condition than the carriages of some of the less well established preservation concerns.

    In general though, I'm not sure that most preserved railways have either the finances or inclination to replace carriages like for like when the replacement vehicles have probably endured more wear and tear than their home fleet.
     
  14. option

    option Member

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    Thats what I said ;)


    Mk 1s will have to leave mainline use soon, & Mk 2s wont have much longer after that.
    So if your a charter/dining train operator & you want your business to last, get buying the Mk 3s & 4s now.

    Mark 1s on heritage lines are generally in really good condition. Those lines that have the facilities are doing excellent work on them.
    Modern paints & varnishes, better tools & materials, attention to detail, combined with much lighter usage, means that general wear & tear isn't much of an issue.
     
  15. alexl92

    alexl92 Established Member

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    Can’t comment on mainline rakes but I’m always really surprised by the desperate external state of the coaches at Embsay, which look like they’ve come from Barry or somewhere, in contrast to their highly maintained locomotives. Theres a certain irony in an ex-industrial Hunslet or Hudswell Clarke being maintained in ex-works condition, beautifully lined out whilst the coaches it hauls are rusty and battered. It’s usually the other way around.
     
  16. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    I suppose that Mk3 coaches will have to be painted in the old Mk1 liveries (BR Chocolate and Cream, Blood and Custard, etc.) so that those on the railtours aren't put off when they get to the station to see "one of those old trains they had to commute on every day" arrive! I know people used Mk1s and Mk2s for commuting, but the Mk3s, as they are still in use on the national network, could still be seen in a negative way.
    Also - would people accidentally get on railtours which use Mk3s? I thought that some of the people I saw at MIM when I saw the HST Farewell Railtour go though would jump on, expecting it to take them to their normal destination! The train stopped there for a while, and there were no announcements saying "Do not board"!

    -Peter
     
  17. BigB

    BigB Member

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    Well your imagination is just that. Let's just look at the the SRPS railtour stock..
    This mark 1 set is very well maintained to main line standard - very few lines maintain their stock to anything approaching this standard, mainly as they don't have to. SRPS stock is cleared for 100mph running (and often does run at this speed on WCML runs) with full maintenence records and unlike on some preserved lines would not be able to be put out carriages with parts of the floor missing.
    Interestingly the SRPS stock is also seconded onto the branch stock at Bo'ness when needed. As that line is completely under SRPS control the carriages do not suffer tree damage unlike when on the main line - West Coast, SRPS, Royal Scotsman etc. stock all suffer from scratches annually on Network Rail metals which can give a poor finish at the end of a railtour season.

    I think you may have been mistaking being shiny with being mechanically sound and reliable certified rolling stock - not unreasonable. Most overhauls of carriages concentrate on above the frames (and in the case of the quad-art set etc.) a fantastic job has been made, and the running gear is refurbished to suit the purpose required - 15mph on a preserved line is acceptable for older wheelsets with worn profiles and it would be ludicrous to buy new wheelsets to rebuild e.g. a 1920s LNER teak carriage to main line standard and 80mph running if it was never going to go over 20. Below the frames is usually cosmetic although brake systems will be to a high standard if the carriage is to be hauled.

    Right - off my soap box!

    BigB
     
  18. option

    option Member

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    The Mk3s are being withdrawn in many places, those being kept are in HST sets.
    I'm sure a charter operator could come up with a suitable livery, nice logo next to the doors etc
     
  19. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

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    I know that the Mk3s are being withdrawn - that's what I meant. Should have been clearer.
    I hope that whoever does choose to run them will have a nice livery.

    -Peter
     
  20. 6Gman

    6Gman Established Member

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    Of course, one could argue that removing the air-con from a Mk III isn't "preservation" ...

    8-)
     
  21. hexagon789

    hexagon789 Established Member

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    I suppose not in the sense of 'faithful' preservation, but then sometimes one has to choose between saving a vehicle by re-purposing or altering it or not saving it at all.
     
  22. randyrippley

    randyrippley Established Member

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    No it wouldn't............when new the prototype power cars were used with a mk 1rake fitted with bogies from the mk 3 and painted in the reversed white/blue of the later Blue Pullmans
    mk 3 coaches were later fitted in, but it was some time before the catering vehicles were replaced
     
  23. randyrippley

    randyrippley Established Member

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    surely the best replacement for a mk 1 is another mk 1.............
    remember the coach that was rebodied with Leyland National body frames? Why not something similar: use recycled mk1 underframes with extruded alloy body frames from Wrights or Alexander-Dennis. Chuck the old bodies away and save a fortune on restoration costs.
    It would also open up alternative sources of stock: for instance those old GUVs dumped at Long Preston (or Hellifield?) could be rebodied as coaches and put back in use.
    It would give a chance to dump all the legacy power systems and start afresh
     
  24. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Many thanks for your insight: I didn't realise any mark 1s were maintained to a 100mph standard these days, or often achieved it. Fortunately putting a carriage into service with a floor missing appears to have been a (hopefully) isolated incident, though you make a good point that worn wheelsets will be far less of an issue at a maximum of 20mph than at 80.

    Though I still doubt the likelihood of any preserved line, with limited financial means, replacing their existing mark 1s on a like for like basis if mainline registered examples become available. I may yet be proved wrong.
    There was never a full mark 1 rake used with the prototype HST, there was only the kitchen car 1524. HST power cars have operated with a selection of mark 1 (and older) test vehicles in their earlier years, but never a full rake.
     
    Last edited: 25 Jun 2019
  25. option

    option Member

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    They wouldn't be replacing what they already have on a like for like basis. Much of the stock on heritage lines has been adapted, eg better access, new lighting, dynamos for lower running speeds, etc

    As for financials, Mk1s coming from mainline operators will be because they no longer have any value.
    Either they become too expensive to maintain to the required standards, they get barred from NR, they get barred from over 25mph running, an owner goes bust & the other mainline operators don't want them, etc etc. Any of those would reduce the value/sales price.
     
  26. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    But then there's other things you can do with a Mk1 like turn them into static holiday cottages (basically like a static caravan). Stayed in one recently, it was quite cool.

    Harder to do with a Mk3 because you'd need to do something with the windows unless you're fitting new aircon, which not everyone likes anyway.
     
  27. option

    option Member

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    But if the market for Mk1s has got smaller, because the mainline operators can't have them, & SRPS etc don't want them either, then the value is likely to drop.
    If they are available because they are being barred from mainline/over 25mph use, then there will suddenly be a large number of Mk1s available, which would reduce their value.
     
  28. trebor79

    trebor79 Member

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    I'm not sure many gricers or ordinary punters would relish the idea of travelling in what sounds like a loco-hauled pacer.
     
  29. randyrippley

    randyrippley Established Member

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    this thread is about the Leyland coach, it doesn't look too bad - and lots of big windows
    https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/44330-leyland-experimental-coach/

    a modern equivalent using longtitudinal extrusions (as used by Wrights) rather than bolt together sections would look even better
     
  30. Cowley

    Cowley Established Member

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    Not sure how good that’s going to look behind a BR black Prairie?
    Looks like a solution looking for a problem RR?
     

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