gtis
Member
I see that the Tornado as been passed for up to 90 mph running I was wondering if in the future be allowed to go for Mallards steam record of 126 mph
Neil
Neil
Whilst I usually believe anything is possible if the will is there, in this case I would categorically say NO, and stake money on it!
There's an awful lot of difference between the 100mph that Tornado ran at and 126mph, and don't forget that after doing this speed Mallard had to be taken off the train and its big-end bearing remetalled!
Definitely.As to the original issue, the streamlining was important for Mallard's record run. It starts to make a real difference at speeds over 100 mph, which Tornado has briefly touched of course on the famous test run. LNER considered a streamlined casing for the Peppercorn A1s, but by the time the locos were finally ordered by BR, such extravagance could not be justified. So while Tornado has a more capable boiler, so is theoretically slightly more powerful than an A4, and with the same size driving wheels and cylinder stroke should be capable of similar speeds, without streamlining it has no chance of beating Mallard. Even if a rich benefactor was to pay for a new streamlined casing to create a 'might have been' I would not expect the A1SLT to take the enormous risk of severely damaging their primary asset by pushing it to even higher speeds than achieved so far.
Regarding the overheated bearing that’s very interesting about your fathers observations. On the actual record breaking run I seem to remember reading somewhere that part of the reason for the damage was shutting the power off too quickly (probably because they had too), and if there’d been the opportunity to slow down more gradually then it might have put less stress on the big end. Would that make any sense or would it have been inevitable after that much speed?
As with all trains it is good practice to shut off power gradually rather than go from full power to no power. In the case of steam locos the regulator should be moved to just open held there for a moment and then closed, it removes the jerk that comes from shutting power off too quickly and reducing wear. Similarly, braking should be done gradually. Drop the vacuum down to about 18", feel the brakes bite take it down to about 15". Then half-way to your stopping point drop it to 8" and aim to stop on a rising needle (the brakes releasing). It's important to brake gradually in steam locos as braking too hard to quickly can cause the water in the boiler to slosh about and expose the tubes potentially causing damage.
At 126 mph though I doubt the crew had much choice in the matter. Mallard's record was attained on track with a 90 mph speed limit, something the permanent way lot weren't all to pleased about. They had to slow to 20 mph for the junctions at Essendine anyway and that harsh acceleration and sustained high speed would probably take its toll on the best if engines.
Thanks Hexagon. Those guys must have had nerves of steel and an incredible knowledge of the machine they were in charge of as they drew out every last tiny bit of performance from her.
Mallard's record was attained on track with a 90 mph speed limit, something the permanent way lot weren't all to pleased about. They had to slow to 20 mph for the junctions at Essendine anyway and that harsh acceleration and sustained high speed would probably take its toll on the best if engines.
Even if it was approved at a very high level in that department, were local permanent way even aware of the real intentions beforehand? I have read the run was described as a 'brake test' in notices. The intent to go for a record was possibly briefed only on a very limited 'need to know' basis.
Am I right in thinking that Tornado will still be timed for 75 mph, 90 mph running being only to recover lost time?
Quite something when you think back to the early 90s when there was a statutory (albeit sometimes ignored) 60mph limit on mainline steam...The Ebor flyer Kings Cross to York 14 April is being advertised as her first 90mph tour, so sounds like most will 75mph with occasional 90mph tours/runs
Quite something when you think back to the early 90s when there was a statutory (albeit sometimes ignored) 60mph limit on mainline steam...
...so sounds like most will 75mph with occasional 90mph tours/runs
I guess (and I honestly don't know) that the original stretch of line used for the record would have to be used again as there's nowhere else. Do the problems at the end of the stretch referred to in Heagon789's post 8 still exist and, if they do, would permission for an attempt even be considered, far less given?
Just a few random thoughts:
Would it not be really difficult to get permission to make an attempt on Mallard's record?
I guess (and I honestly don't know) that the original stretch of line used for the record would have to be used again as there's nowhere else.
Do the problems at the end of the stretch referred to in Heagon789's post 8 still exist and, if they do, would permission for an attempt even be considered, far less given?
Also, in this day and age of publicity for everything through social media, would it be practical (or desirable) to make an attempt in secret or would it have to be publicised beforehand with all the attendant problems (i.e. if it failed)?
I very much agree Mr Woodbine.I think a lot of the mech. engineering aspects have been covered. But from an historical perspective, I don't think many within the steam/preservation movement would actually want Mallard's record to be broken. It was such an acheivement at the time, given the infrastructure and equipment at their disposal, it would be a bit of a hollow and meaningless victory to beat it.
What's more, there's always the danger that if Tornado, or anyone for that matter, attempted to set a new record it might backfire by encouraging other countries to do the same. It would be a bit depressing to see Mallard's record beaten by the DB Class 05 or an American loco if we started a new record-race that we couldn't finish. I say let the old girl and her records be.
I think a lot of the mech. engineering aspects have been covered. But from an historical perspective, I don't think many within the steam/preservation movement would actually want Mallard's record to be broken. It was such an acheivement at the time, given the infrastructure and equipment at their disposal, it would be a bit of a hollow and meaningless victory to beat it.
What's more, there's always the danger that if Tornado, or anyone for that matter, attempted to set a new record it might backfire by encouraging other countries to do the same. It would be a bit depressing to see Mallard's record beaten by the DB Class 05 or an American loco if we started a new record-race that we couldn't finish. I say let the old girl and her records be.
Actually, I see it absolutely the opposite - and I promise I'm not being perverse for the sake of it. Any attempt to beat Mallard's record would be a win-win for the A4's, Sir Nigel Gresley's and even Britain's reputuation. (I'd rather not use the term "brand" - it sounds so cheap and tacky.) Well, ok, maybe not if it was the DB 05 doing it!
But think about it. If Tornado, or any attempt were made - be it in Germany or, I don't know - China? - it would focus media attention on the whole 1938 event. That alone is positive.
If the new attempt were successful, kudos to the winner, but the line for Gresley fans would be: "Only after 80+ years, and aided by the most modern technology and under perfect conditions, has Mallard's record been broken!" There is no shame whatsoever in that.
And if the new attempt were not successful - well, it's even more impressive! Ditto the line above, except to say Even after 80+ years, ..... etc, Mallard's achievment remains unbeatable!
It would be as if, I don't know, someone tried to build a modern version of a WW2 four-engined bomber, and it was found to be inferior to the Lancaster/Halifax.
But I think that therein lies yet one more reason why the A1 boys - indeed, why nobody else - would consider trying it - the ignominy of failure. Because you couldn't keep it secret, and the media would then make it look like, eg Tornado were a failure.
Which would be silly in the case of the A1 because it was not built (neither the original locomotives, nor Tornado) to outdo Mallard in terms of speed: the A1s were built to haul 400 tonne expresses more effciently and more economically than Mallard - and I think that in the 1950s they already proved they could do that.
And that is just if it couldn't make the 126 mph speed - the fall out if there were to be an actual mechanical failure, leet alone some incident endangering life, would be horrendous. (The Daily Groan: "Why did Network Rail allow trainspotters to risk life and limb to play steam trains? ..... etc etc)
It would be interesting to talk to those who were on the 100 mph Tornado test run to see what they thought the locomotive had in reserve with a bit more distance to reach its absolute ceiling on the level. My gut feeling would be around 105-108 mph, ie something like Papyrus (I think it was) back in the 30s. If it could try it down Stoke bank, or on the Midland (perhaps in the up, down Sharnbrook Bank - short, sweet and steep - I should have not omitted that possibility) - maybe 115 mph?
But at the end of the day, it should be mentioned, that - despite national pride etc - the German achievement of 125 mph on the level, really topped that of Mallard's in terms of genuine engineering performance.
Never mind, we can allow them that - and just be grateful we had the Spitfire.
...
Speaking of level playing-field, didn't the DB Class 05 have a much lighter trailing-load, only of two or three carriages, compared to Mallard's full rake?