Could TPE route electrification be delayed and if so could we see battery trains?

[Glenn1969]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...pgrade-and-electrification-updates-cp6.88054/


CP7 is 2024 to 2029. My view is still that some elements (probably including Hudd- Staly electrification) will be deferred until CP8. But hope I'm wrong

 

[GRALISTAIR]

CP7 is 2024 to 2029. My view is still that some elements (probably including Hudd- Staly electrification) will be deferred until CP8. But hope I'm wrong

I am really sorry you are wrong. See link which i have put in my edit above. Definitely beyond 2029 - exact words are work will span 3 control periods !!

Here is the quote again.

TRU and the TRU W3 Project will span three railway investment periods: Control Period 6 (2019 to 2024), Control Period 7 (2024 to 2029) and Control Period 8 (2029 to 2034). The cost of implementing the TRU W3 Project works to be authorised by this Order is £1,458,929,838. These costs are estimated to comprise £479m in Control Period 6, £945,929,838 in Control Period 7, and £34m in Control Period 8. In addition to the funds already available to Network Rail in Control Period 6 to progress the TRU W3 Project further funding will be made available for the delivery of the TRU W3 Project from the identified funding allocation for TRU in accordance with the RNEP governance process. This provision will be sufficient to deliver the TRU W3 Project as part of TRU, provided it has the required consents and continues to represent value for money.

 

[Purple Orange]

CP7 is 2024 to 2029. My view is still that some elements (probably including Hudd- Staly electrification) will be deferred until CP8. But hope I'm wrong

For what reason(s)?

 

[Glenn1969]

Money

 

[Purple Orange]

Money

If it is funding, then it will be delayed indefinitely rather than restarted later. The decision to withdraw funding will be based on the quality of the business case and if it is deemed to be poor it would not be restarted at all, just like P15 & 16.

However without electrification, how can one of the busiest routes in the country be decarbonised? That issue isn’t going away.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

That issue isn’t going away.

Agreed.

It is also politically good for Northern cities. It has to happen.

 

[CdBrux]

Batteries? Got to think for the Stalybridge to Huddersfield that must be an option

 

[SuperNova]

Batteries? Got to think for the Stalybridge to Huddersfield that must be an option

It isn't.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Batteries? Got to think for the Stalybridge to Huddersfield that must be an option

Needs a lot of batteries, that's some hill to climb from Stalybridge up to the tunnel, of course it's down hill all the way on the other side so plenty scope for regen charging....

 

[quantinghome]

Why have batteries when the route has just had new hybrids introduced?

 

[Rhydgaled]

WHAT! Full TPE electrification between Manchester and York has to be one of the top priorities (if not THE top priority) if we are to decarbonise the rail industry. The 150s need to be replaced by 2030 and buying replacement mechanical DMUs would dig us further into a hole (the 195s already have a lifespan extending to 2050, any newer DMUs will push decarbonisation back beyond 2050). The Nova 1 and Nova 3 fleets combined appear to be large enough to run all TPE's remaining off-wire services if Manchester-York was electric, - meaning all 51 class 185s would be available for cascade elsewhere if TPE got more Nova 2s (397s) and either offloads the stoppers to Northern or brings in suitable EMUs (something like a 350 probably).

 

[SuperNova]

WHAT! Full TPE electrification between Manchester and York has to be one of the top priorities (if not THE top priority) if we are to decarbonise the rail industry. The 150s need to be replaced by 2030 and buying replacement mechanical DMUs would dig us further into a hole (the 195s already have a lifespan extending to 2050, any newer DMUs will push decarbonisation back beyond 2050). The Nova 1 and Nova 3 fleets combined appear to be large enough to run all TPE's remaining off-wire services if Manchester-York was electric, - meaning all 51 class 185s would be available for cascade elsewhere if TPE got more Nova 2s (397s) and either offloads the stoppers to Northern or brings in suitable EMUs (something like a 350 probably).

All 185s wouldn't be available as they would still be used on the Cleethorpes services. There's also the likelihood of TPE taking on the Wakefield services (delayed due to Covid), extending the Manchester stoppers through, so 185s wouldn't leave entirely.

 

[adrock1976]

Having seen the title of the thread, my response is that the electrification of the TP line should not be delayed at all.

If we are to take climate change seriously, we should be working to ban diesel trains from routes that have enclosed train shed/underground type stations.

For example from north to south (a quick overview) there is Inverness, Perth, Glasgow Central and Queen Street, Edinburgh Waverley, Carlisle, Newcastle, Darlington Bank Top, Preston, York, Liverpool Lime Street, Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly, Leeds, Birmingham New Street and Snow Hill, and all of the London terminal stations.

Ideally, this would be a resolution passed by the United Nations General Assembly and Security Council banning the use of diesel trains from enclosed stations which would be binding in international law. After all, Scotland led the UK back in 2006 by banning smoking in enclosed spaces.

 

[Bayum]

TPE electrification will be delayed**
Fixed that for you.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ideally, this would be a resolution passed by the United Nations General Assembly and Security Council banning the use of diesel trains from enclosed stations which would be binding in international law. After all, Scotland led the UK back in 2006 by banning smoking in enclosed spaces.

Not sure what the UN Security Council would have to do with it!

TPE electrification will be delayed**

Delayed from when?

 

[Purple Orange]

Having seen the title of the thread, my response is that the electrification of the TP line should not be delayed at all.

If we are to take climate change seriously, we should be working to ban diesel trains from routes that have enclosed train shed/underground type stations.

For example from north to south (a quick overview) there is Inverness, Perth, Glasgow Central and Queen Street, Edinburgh Waverley, Carlisle, Newcastle, Darlington Bank Top, Preston, York, Liverpool Lime Street, Manchester Victoria and Piccadilly, Leeds, Birmingham New Street and Snow Hill, and all of the London terminal stations.

Ideally, this would be a resolution passed by the United Nations General Assembly and Security Council banning the use of diesel trains from enclosed stations which would be binding in international law. After all, Scotland led the UK back in 2006 by banning smoking in enclosed spaces.

Sometimes I wonder when I see threads about delay to electrification, or delay to any infrastructure scheme, it is really a coded way of saying that the person raising the issue doesn’t want it to happen, or doesn’t like change.

A decade ago, 90 miles of wires were needed. Today roughly 55 miles of wires are needed and after this first phase of TRU, it will be about 30 miles of wires needed. TP electrification will happen - that I have no doubt about.

 

[snowball]

Having seen the title of the thread, my response is that the electrification of the TP line should not be delayed at all.

If we are to take climate change seriously, we should be working to ban diesel trains from routes that have enclosed train shed/underground type stations.

You seem to be conflating two issues. Diesel trains in enclosed train sheds or underground type stations are a serious problem of air quality, human health and human discomfort, but nothing to do with climate change. Carbon dioxide emitted into the atmosphere has pretty much the same effect on the climate whether it's emitted in New Street Station or the Highland Main Line. It eventually diffuses around and contributes to the total amount in the atmosphere.

 

[Glenn1969]

The first few posts on here stem from my reply on the non speculative thread that was moved in here. I stand by that view. I don't see full electrification before 2040 because I think Hudd- Staly will be wired after the rest with TPE using its 802s as bi modes

 

[SuperNova]

The first few posts on here stem from my reply on the non speculative thread that was moved in here. I stand by that view. I don't see full electrification before 2040 because I think Hudd- Staly will be wired after the rest with TPE using its 802s as bi modes

You'll be wrong.

 

[Purple Orange]

The first few posts on here stem from my reply on the non speculative thread that was moved in here. I stand by that view. I don't see full electrification before 2040 because I think Hudd- Staly will be wired after the rest with TPE using its 802s as bi modes

20 years to wire 55 miles? Sorry but I can't see that. Roughly 10 miles are in the process of being done right now.

 

[Bald Rick]

The first few posts on here stem from my reply on the non speculative thread that was moved in here. I stand by that view. I don't see full electrification before 2040 because I think Hudd- Staly will be wired after the rest with TPE using its 802s as bi modes

You'll be wrong.

+1

 

[Rhydgaled]

All 185s wouldn't be available as they would still be used on the Cleethorpes services. There's also the likelihood of TPE taking on the Wakefield services (delayed due to Covid), extending the Manchester stoppers through, so 185s wouldn't leave entirely.

I'm pretty sure I took the Cleethorpes services into account and that full wiring between Manchester and York (with more 397s ordered for all services fully under the wires) would release enough 802s and mark 5 sets to cover the Cleethorpes route as well (since the 68s are diesel-only, it would probably make more sense for them to take over the Cleethorpes route where much less of the route is wired, with 802s on Redcar, Hull and Scarborough services but there aren't quite enough 802s for that so some mark 5s would need to suplement them as well as working the Cleethorpes route).

 

[nr758123]

20 years to wire 55 miles? Sorry but I can't see that. Roughly 10 miles are in the process of being done right now.

It's taken 10 years since the announcement even to make a start on those first few miles.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It's taken 10 years since the announcement even to make a start on those first few miles.

True but there are a number of reasons. Key reason is that electrification on it own bought hardly any benefits. The line is not being electrified it has having a massive upgrade that includes electrification.

 

[Purple Orange]

It's taken 10 years since the announcement even to make a start on those first few miles.

If we consider the trans pennine line as a 90 mile route from Liverpool to York, there has been significant electrification taking place in the last decade. After this round of electrification, there will be roughly 25-30 miles to go. Now of course this all needs to dovetail with HS2/NPR as well. One thing we can say is this: HS2 is due to arrive in Manchester around about 2035, with a station that can accommodate trans pennine services. What the DfT, NR and TfN will not want to see is infrastructure that is vastly under utilised from day 1 and will continue to be under utilised. This is true for HS2 phase 2b, because without that Birmingham Curzon Street is a 7 platform station serving 3 trains to London each hour and no rail connections to anywhere else.

 

[Glenn1969]

Don't forget they are saying that Huddersfield to Westtown will take 9 years. 2 years for the TWAO decision, all of CP7 and some spend in CP8. i'm thinking Westtown to Leeds will follow and Hudd to Staly will follow that if it happens

 

[Bald Rick]

Don't forget they are saying that Huddersfield to Westtown will take 9 years. 2 years for the TWAO decision, all of CP7 and some spend in CP8. i'm thinking Westtown to Leeds will follow and Hudd to Staly will follow that if it happens

It’s safe to say that the later phases will start a long time before Huddersfield - Westtown is finished.

 

[Purple Orange]

It’s safe to say that the later phases will start a long time before Huddersfield - Westtown is finished.

Exactly. Like HS2, there will be a point in time where construction work is being performed across the geography of all stages.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Why have batteries when the route has just had new hybrids introduced?

Adding to this and since the 68s are capable of being independent locomotives I would have thought the simplest answer would be to purchase some more bi-mode 88s and allow the 68s to be used elsewhere on freight roles.

 

[CBlue]

Adding to this and since the 68s are capable of being independent locomotives I would have thought the simplest answer would be to purchase some more bi-mode 88s and allow the 68s to be used elsewhere on freight roles.

88s don't have the power to cope on diesel, as has been stated many times in previous threads.