Could we see more intensive services now Stevenage P5 has opened, such as higher frequency to Hertford?

[cle]

Is there any immediate benefit to this in terms of Thameslink pathing? I would guess not as it has been bustituted, but curious if this permanent move will help the flow and unlock anything more?

Also, is there a plan to go beyond 2tph from Stevenage down towards Hertford? Or will that always be enough?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there any immediate benefit to this in terms of Thameslink pathing? I would guess not as it has been bustituted, but curious if this permanent move will help the flow and unlock anything more?

Also, is there a plan to go beyond 2tph from Stevenage down towards Hertford? Or will that always be enough?

I think the benefits to Thameslink pathing had already happened, which was why they bustituted the service Mon - Sat. As you possibly know, this platform was originally planned to have been opened in CP5, prior to any Thameslink extras.

I don’t think there are any published plans for 4 tph. May not be enough stock once the intended extra Moorgate services happen anyway.

 

[trek]

Is there any immediate benefit to this in terms of Thameslink pathing? I would guess not as it has been bustituted, but curious if this permanent move will help the flow and unlock anything more?

Also, is there a plan to go beyond 2tph from Stevenage down towards Hertford? Or will that always be enough?

There is not any further benefit to Thameslink pathing but there is a benefit to the service in general, particularly freight which will now get a clear run round the loop and will not need to be pathed to avoid the Langley junction reversing moves. In addition during disruption on the mainline any services diverted round the loop in the down direction for whatever reason will no longer get stuck behind trains reversing at Langley Junction (although they'll obviously still be delayed whilst local services call at stations). Indeed one of the reasons empty coaching stock started early was because freight paths had been put in assuming the new platform would be open and continuing to reverse at Langley junction would have delayed those.

I don't think there is much demand for beyond 2tph, there are only so many people wishing to make local journeys really. Any spare stock would be better utilised at the southern end of the route (Moorgate is due a further service uplift at some point iirc).

 

[Mcq]

An hour or so watching Opentraintimes around Stevenage - especially later in the evening will reveal just how much traffic goes via the Hertford loop - aside of the Moorgate service.
Last night there was Cambridge traffic both ways, Peterborough trains, an incoming Edinburgh service, then several freight moves - like the mail train and interestingly empty stock moves to Letchworth sidings.
Now the Moorgate Stevenage service gets out of the way into P5 while it waits, instead of sitting on P4 and holding everything up.
I think the freight side is increasing up and down the loop now.

 

[cle]

Ok cool, thanks for the answers. Better use of the loop is great. I asked as I had heard about increased services into Moorgate, and was curious if these formed part of that at all - of course demand is greater closer to London.

 

[Mcq]

Of course if anything serious happens around the Welwyn Viaduct (bottleneck) - then the world and his wife will be pounding up and down the H loop and it will be great that the Moorgate service is out of the way in P5

 

[Fred26]

Of course if anything serious happens around the Welwyn Viaduct (bottleneck) - then the world and his wife will be pounding up and down the H loop and it will be great that the Moorgate service is out of the way in P5

When that happens control tend to cancel the stoppers, or at least remove the stops anyway.
A passing loop or two would be helpful in this case, and also during engineering work (when the mainline via Welwyn is closed, Hertford services are reduced or cancelled). I'd say definitely at Gordon Hill, and possibly at Hertford North too.

 

[Mcq]

If I remember aright in CP5 (or was it CP6) there was a scheme for a 'turn back' at GH.
This would have involved the existing P4 which still has it's wires up - plus in the days of steam allowed access back onto the down line after the platform and a crossover I think to the up line, so the space is there.
Equally GH P1 could possibly, with some earthworks etc, emerge N of the up line.
HN is more challenging, there's no realistic way of returning P3 to the down line - of course in the really good old days there was a platform on the other side of P1 which was used for the WGC to Cowbridge service

 

[swt_passenger]

If I remember aright in CP5 (or was it CP6) there was a scheme for a 'turn back' at GH.
This would have involved the existing P4 which still has it's wires up - plus in the days of steam allowed access back onto the down line after the platform and a crossover I think to the up line, so the space is there.
Equally GH P1 could possibly, with some earthworks etc, emerge N of the up line.
HN is more challenging, there's no realistic way of returning P3 to the down line - of course in the really good old days there was a platform on the other side of P1 which was used for the WGC to Cowbridge service

Gordon Hill turnback was cancelled during 2017 by NR because the TOC reckoned they didn’t need it. The reason given was that the Stevenage P5 platform met the output requirements on its own.

 

[Mcq]

But there we are - do you build a railway based on the 'TOC of the Day' or do you take a more holistic approach?
At the point when Digswell fails, there will be a lot of other TOCs inconvenienced and the chances are GN, the 'TOC of the Day', will be shunted off the scene in favour of the bigger boys - that's what usually happens.
So a passing loop as suggested by Fred26 (not a dead ended turn back) could be a saviour for the normal TOC, better to get into a loop and then tuck back behind, than have your service cancelled.
But no - we do dead ends - GH P1, HN P3, Stevenage P5 for example

 

[cle]

Loops and sections of 3/4 track where possible, would be much more useful. Especially for the inner sections and getting them up to metro frequencies, alongside freight (or express services perhaps).

 

[Mcq]

3/4 track might be hard to engineer on the Hertford Loop, but a passing loop at P4 Gordon Hill (GDH) is easy peasy - just reinstate what is/was there with the X over N of the platform as well.

 

[AlbertBeale]

3/4 track might be hard to engineer on the Hertford Loop, but a passing loop at P4 GH is easy peasy - just reinstate what is/was there with the X over N of the platform as well.

What/where is GH?

 

[Mcq]

Gordon Hill

 

[sammorris]

But there we are - do you build a railway based on the 'TOC of the Day' or do you take a more holistic approach?
At the point when Digswell fails, there will be a lot of other TOCs inconvenienced and the chances are GN, the 'TOC of the Day', will be shunted off the scene in favour of the bigger boys - that's what usually happens.
So a passing loop as suggested by Fred26 (not a dead ended turn back) could be a saviour for the normal TOC, better to get into a loop and then tuck back behind, than have your service cancelled.
But no - we do dead ends - GH P1, HN P3, Stevenage P5 for example

To be fair they'd need to do extensive reconstruction work to the station to let trains back out to the north at P5. At some point there is a plan to reconstruct the station anyway, at which point this could be reconsidered. Great to see this link back on the map - I did wonder at one stage if they might have taken the opportunity to close the line to passengers north of Hertford.

 

[Mcq]

Sure regarding extensive works at Stevenage - mind you they had all the other kit there for track laying, signals, closures etc. so there must have been a trade off between that and a re-visit
You're right, the main thing is that the route stayed open for passengers N of HN instead of closing as it did in 1939 - sadly Stapleford never re-opened but Watton did.

 

[bramling]

Sure regarding extensive works at Stevenage - mind you they had all the other kit there for track laying, signals, closures etc. so there must have been a trade off between that and a re-visit
You're right, the main thing is that the route stayed open for passengers N of HN instead of closing as it did in 1939 - sadly Stapleford never re-opened but Watton did.

I don't think it would be politically viable to close north of Hertford. Watton-at-Stone though a quiet station is a railhead for some quite wealthy villages, and parking at surrounding stations (Hertford North, Knebworth and Welwyn North) isn't that plentiful, plus driving into Stevenage in the morning isn't a wonderful experience from that direction.

Withdrawing the service north of Hertford would save just one unit, so there isn't a massive saving in doing so.

Getting the crayons out one could consider an hourly outer-suburban service going round the loop and serving the Stevenage to Hertford traffic (plus perhaps even calling at one or two of the busier stations further in), which has happened in timetables from the increasingly distant past, but you run into the problem of having to timetable that round the all-stations services, which with a 4tph service would now be extremely difficult to do robustly.

I think the current solution is probably the best considering all the conflicting needs.

 

[Mcq]

Yup I agree about the wealthy villages - it was they that applied the pressure to the politicians to get P5 on the move PDQ after it was deleted from earlier works.
However many of those folk used to travel to Letchworth which is a very pleasant shopping centre - a proper 'Garden City' - they're not much impressed about having an awkward change at P5 now to get there - so use the car!

 

[Hadders]

Isn't the service 4tph Moorgate to Hertford North with 2tph extending to Stevenage?

I don't think the new platform at Stevenage can handle 4tph, in theory I suspect it could handle 3tph but that would mean a reduction in trains south of Hertford. 2tph is more than sufficient between Hertford and Stevenage. There is an argument for saying that you could run one train an hour from Kings Cross to Cambridge via the loop giving a through service from places like Hertford North to Cambridge but then I suspect it starts getting tricky from a timetabling point of view.

 

[A0wen]

Isn't the service 4tph Moorgate to Hertford North with 2tph extending to Stevenage?

I don't think the new platform at Stevenage can handle 4tph, in theory I suspect it could handle 3tph but that would mean a reduction in trains south of Hertford. 2tph is more than sufficient between Hertford and Stevenage. There is an argument for saying that you could run one train an hour from Kings Cross to Cambridge via the loop giving a through service from places like Hertford North to Cambridge but then I suspect it starts getting tricky from a timetabling point of view.

I very much doubt there's demand for more than 2tph between Stevenage and Hertford.

Worth remembering when the GN electrification completed all trains terminated at Hertford North and the link north was 1 train / 2 hours (I think) which was a Hertford - Huntingdon DMU.

That was curtailed to Hitchin in around 1980 with 1 of the Moorgate services per hour extended to Letchworth.

For anyone from Stevenage the Moorgate services are a *very* slow way to get to London taking 51 mins to get to Finsbury Park - which can be done in 20-30 mins on the outer suburban services. The places on the Hertford loop are all small - Hertford's the biggest and that's only 26000.

 

[Hadders]

I very much doubt there's demand for more than 2tph between Stevenage and Hertford.

Worth remembering when the GN electrification completed all trains terminated at Hertford North and the link north was 1 train / 2 hours (I think) which was a Hertford - Huntingdon DMU.

That was curtailed to Hitchin in around 1980 with 1 of the Moorgate services per hour extended to Letchworth.

For anyone from Stevenage the Moorgate services are a *very* slow way to get to London taking 51 mins to get to Finsbury Park - which can be done in 20-30 mins on the outer suburban services. The places on the Hertford loop are all small - Hertford's the biggest and that's only 26000.

Quite! No-one would ever travel from Stevenage to London on a Hertford loop service* The market for Stevenage to Hertford is relatively small and if going further than Enfield Chase it is as quick to travel via Finsbury Park.

Stevenage to Finsbury Park is 20 mins non-stop every 15 minutes throughout the day these days.

*I have travelled Stevenage to Finsbury Park via Hertford a few times but my brother’s local station is Enfield Chase so if we’re going out in London we’ve sometimes arranged to meet on the train. That said, the timetable means it’s often as convenient to meet at Finsbury these days.

 

[Mcq]

Presumably cutting off Letchworth from HN as a direct service has reduced passengers?

 

[Hadders]

Presumably cutting off Letchworth from HN as a direct service has reduced passengers?

I doubt it. The trains were empty north of Hertford. A few would get on at Stevenage if they were going to Hitchin of Letchworth but there are plenty of trains that cover that route.

 

[Fred26]

Presumably cutting off Letchworth from HN as a direct service has reduced passengers?

No, they were nice to have during disruption but that was it.
When they ran there were 2tph Stevenage - Cambridge that called Hitchin and Letchworth, so some hours there were 3tph (including the ex-Mooorgate service), or even 4tph a couple of times per day. Now there's 4tph Stevenage to Cambridge, all of which call Hitchin and Letchworth. The service is much improved.

 

[Mcq]

Thanks chaps

 

[4-SUB 4732]

To go from Langley South Jn (faster crossover) to Stevenage is 2.5 mins. If you add a turnaround of 7 mins (don’t want any less) and then back, you’re at 12 mins. It’s not impossible therefore to do a 15-minute frequency, but would you want to?

Arguably it is fine off-peak and weekends at half-hourly, with some peak movearound to allow something every 20 minutes; or have a unit coming off Letchworth (or onto) empty for two hours at peak although all sidings are 8 car or more so a bit of a waste. Hertford Sidings straight in/out from Stevenage works, mind.

Experience says even at peak you don’t need more than two an hour from Watton; and the link between Stevenage and Hertford is hardly busy.