Council owned bus companies in 2012

[Blindtraveler]

il give you that one Mojo. Just traveled today to/from Fife and although the stagecoach service that took me the majoritty of the way was limmited stop it spent longer loading at each point and infact on my return with 1 bit of work done and another wating I actually changed to a Lothian service as soon as practicle due to shorter dwell times as surprising numbers use the stagecoach bus to city centre!

 

[Schnellzug]

Exact fares is an excellent system and the sooner all bus operators simplify and advertise their fares and move to cash vaults and not giving change the better.

If it was in nice simple multiples of 50p, say, and most importantly this was publicised nice & clearly, then that may be so, but otherwise, if it was something like £1.75 or something, and you had to make sure that you had exactly the right amount before getting on a Bus, it would be another step along the road of "efficient" public transport not necessarily being the same thing as customer-friendly public transport. Although not as unfriendly as roadside ticket machines like London.

 

[Blindtraveler]

good point. Reason number ... Why I dont do busses in London, those stupid machines, totally unfriendly to the visually impaired!

A national bus smart card would be handy - creddited quickly at supermarkets, transport termini, banks etc and then swiped on any bus, anywhere! My free pass doesnt work on night services in Edinburgh and I never am orgonised to have the money handy! Not to mention trips south of the border! Better still, if NX took it on commuter or high frequency coach runs!

 

[robertclark125]

Regards what would happen if west Lothian council wanted to sell their share in Lothian Buses, I've no idea. Presumably the others, especially Edinburgh City Council, would get first refusal. If that's not the case, then well, who knows?

 

[martinsh]

Regards what would happen if west Lothian council wanted to sell their share in Lothian Buses, I've no idea. Presumably the others, especially Edinburgh City Council, would get first refusal. If that's not the case, then well, who knows?

this is what happened with Burnley & Pendle ...

 

[Flying Snail]

and "s*d the customer", eh ?

As a regular bus traveller I definitely prefer it if they give change...

It is all very well complaining that you aren't getting good service but for the most part the reason exact fare and cash safes were introduced was because of drivers being robbed when they held cash.

This was certainly the case here where prior to the switch to exact fare only robberies with violence were reaching epidemic proportions.

 

[WestCoast]

As for exact change, companies could follow what Dublin Bus manages to do even with coin hoppers and issue change vouchers which can be reclaimed at the office.

My local Stagecoach bus often runs out of change anyway and you end up with a voucher!

 

[Blindtraveler]

can said tocans also be used onboard?

 

[WestCoast]

can said tocans also be used onboard?

Stagecoach's vouchers can be used onboard.

Dublin Bus change vouchers must be redeemed at the office, but at least they offer the option unlike Lothian Buses.

 

[tbtc]

Regards what would happen if west Lothian council wanted to sell their share in Lothian Buses, I've no idea. Presumably the others, especially Edinburgh City Council, would get first refusal. If that's not the case, then well, who knows?

I wondered that, but then Edinburgh City Council aren't exactly flush with money these days (for tram related reasons)

 

[Blindtraveler]

aha! another one!
just had to endure a lemgthy delay whilst cockney businessman and Lothian bus driver have heated argument on this very subject! have to say I agree with you West Coast, have you ever suggested this to them? I think now with the new tiket machines it may be doable and its discusting that it isnt!

 

[Deerfold]

As for exact change, companies could follow what Dublin Bus manages to do even with coin hoppers and issue change vouchers which can be reclaimed at the office.

I don't know if it still happens but Nottingham City Transport used to do that too. However the office opening times when they could be redeemed were rather inconvenient.

 

[bb21]

I don't know if it still happens but Nottingham City Transport used to do that too. However the office opening times when they could be redeemed were rather inconvenient.

Centrebus do that I believe, even with drivers giving change, for times when they don't have sufficient change. The change voucher can be used as credit for the next journey, too, and not just for cash redemption.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I tried to understand the fare structure for the Optio Orange network and struggled.
http://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/optio-orange-frequency-guide.htm

You're not the only one. I'm struggling to understand the myriad of Switchas and Network Add-ons. In addition to the operators' own Day Rider (or equivalent) fares, trying to work out the best value fare for the day is a nightmare. Thankfully whenever I need to go to Sheffield, it costs me £1.30 each way so there is never a need for a day ticket.

Why can't they just simplify the system with an inter-operator ticket? Making a half-a*sed attempt at network integration is worse than no integration.

Exact fares is an excellent system and the sooner all bus operators simplify and advertise their fares and move to cash vaults and not giving change the better.

I remember the first time I encountered said system, in Aberdeen, and the fare was 90p. I remember the panic going through my body when I had to dig out all the coins in my pocket, in front of all on the bus, and was still 3p short. Either that or I pay £1 and feel ripped off. Thankfully the driver let me off with 87p.

As others have said, the system only works with fares that are nice round figures and where well publicised.

Same here. It just isn't practical until smart cards are the norm and, more importantly, one smart card will be intuitive enough to be used throughout the country no matter who the operator is. It's a nightmare as a very irregular visitor to Edinburgh, for example, firstly remembering one needs change and secondly trying to find out how much. A first time visitor to an area where the bus services have an exact fare policy has absolutely no chance.

Exactly. Edinburgh is not actually too bad as I remember that Lothian used to publish fare stages on the back of timetable booklets complete with a route diagram (not to scale) and detailed fare information. There are plenty of areas out there where it used to be a nightmare trying to find out how much a journey cost. Take Travel West Midlands for example, they used to tell you how much the fare is for a certain number of fare stages, fair enough, however what they didn't tell you is what a fare stage comprises, so one would be none the wiser as whether a particular journey crosses two fare stages, or three, or four.

 

[Blindtraveler]

lothian is now flat rate £1.30 single

 

[radamfi]

You're not the only one. I'm struggling to understand the myriad of Switchas and Network Add-ons. In addition to the operators' own Day Rider (or equivalent) fares, trying to work out the best value fare for the day is a nightmare. Thankfully whenever I need to go to Sheffield, it costs me £1.30 each way so there is never a need for a day ticket.

Why can't they just simplify the system with an inter-operator ticket? Making a half-a*sed attempt at network integration is worse than no integration.

There is an all operator ticket in Sheffield at £4.90 but operators don't want people to buy this as they would prefer people to buy single operator tickets. The operators don't particularly want you to get an Optio ticket, but they would rather have you buy that than the all operator ticket. Indeed you can 'upgrade' your Optio ticket to a First or Stagecoach day ticket.

First and Stagecoach allow the Optio ticket so they could call a truce on these competitive routes and avoid the huge expense of running an excessive number of buses on the Optio routes. Before Quality Partnerships that would require carving up the routes between the two companies and face possible accusations of collusion. Quality Partnerships allow competing companies to create joint services to save operating costs without breaking competition law. Similar deals have been done in Oxford and Chester.

 

[bb21]

Inter-operator tickets are just like inter-available fares on the railways. Operators don't like them as they have to share revenue with smaller independent operators.

The example in Leicester shows how ridiculous a situation it sometimes is. Arriva offers a day ticket (valid over a very slightly larger area with discrepancies around certain points at the border) for £3.80, and First offers a day ticket for the same price. The inter-available Flexi ticket costs £4 and is valid on both operators plus Centrebus, Kinchbus, Stagecoach, etc.

Of course when the Flexi ticket was first introduced years ago, the fares structure was completely different where Arriva charged £2.50 and First charged £1.95 for a day ticket. However as no one paid particular attention to the Flexi ticket, its price remained constant over the years while the operator-specific fares rocketed, to the extent that now it effectively acts as a cap for both the big players on the price of their own day tickets.

 

[90019]

lothian is now flat rate £1.30 single

Or £3.20 for a dayticket.

 

[LexyBoy]

Interesting thread, I'm learning a lot I didn't know. Whilst I have no knowledge of the inside workings of Reading Transport or council politics, Reading Transport seems to be pretty popular - and certainly runs a better service than the (limited) privatised operators in the area. Frequent propaganda articles in the free paper help too

Exact fares is an excellent system and the sooner all bus operators simplify and advertise their fares and move to cash vaults and not giving change the better.

In Reading the exact fare system certainly speeds up boarding, however it also gets peoples backs up - spending a tenner for a bus ticket would wouldn't it? However their smartcard (electronic purse) is quite heavily advertised and seems well used, which means no need to carry change. (Personally I use a PlusBus ticket - only 10p more than a single fare and valid on all operators, all day!).

I'd agree that it's a good thing in towns - where there should also always be a flat fare. On rural routes it's not reasonable to demand exact change - there's not always a handy corner shop to get change - and it causes less of an issue with journey times.

For example, the X39/40 goes between Reading and Oxford - fares are in the £2-6 range - and despite the popularity of the route it's fairly quick. This is largely because the majority of passengers board at either end of the route where the bus waits at its stop for a while giving time to sell tickets. OTOH the Reading Buses 2 goes outside the flat fare zone (into moderately rural areas) and demands exact change - without the required fare being shown anywhere on the stop, which leads to much scrabbling for change.

Also note that in London - where almost everyone uses Oyster - drivers do give change. So encouraging exact change via smartcard and giving change for cash payments are not mutually exclusive.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I don't know if it still happens but Nottingham City Transport used to do that too. However the office opening times when they could be redeemed were rather inconvenient.

NCT still has coin hoppers (amusing to think that those on 61 reg buses probably started life on Atlanteans) and exact fare. It works pretty well as they have a flat fare in the city (the 1 and 100 which go out the city give change) and most people are used to it, so boarding is speeded up compared to having lots of people getting on with £10 and needing change. These days many people have smartcard anyway, so the numbers paying cash is quite low (from experiance I'd say about 1 in 10 pays cash).

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I know state owned Translink have overall control of services in the province but aren't Metro services still kind of technically Belfast City Transport ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Many of the council owned bus companies have had to change and adapt to suit the changed climate of bus operation. Halton, for instance, operating services in to Liverpool and tendering for other councils subsidised services. Others like Thamesdown and Ipswich do not have a monopoly on the town's services.
Which of the remaining municipal operators is closest to the old style British 'Corporation Transport' with predominantly double-deck vehicles, uniform livery (as opposed to route 'branding') and a near monopoly of services in the municipal area it serves ?

 

[ChrisCooper]

I know state owned Translink have overall control of services in the province but aren't Metro services still kind of technically Belfast City Transport ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Many of the council owned bus companies have had to change and adapt to suit the changed climate of bus operation. Halton, for instance, operating services in to Liverpool and tendering for other councils subsidised services. Others like Thamesdown and Ipswich do not have a monopoly on the town's services.
Which of the remaining municipal operators is closest to the old style British 'Corporation Transport' with predominantly double-deck vehicles, uniform livery (as opposed to route 'branding') and a near monopoly of services in the municipal area it serves ?

NCT must come close. Their fleet is largely double deck. They have a near monopoly of services inside the City Boundary (Trent Barton, the other large operator, operates services that come in from outside the city, the majority of which go back to pre-deregulation days when Bartons was a large independant). They only have direct competition on one route. Other operators mostly do council subsidised work, or other routes from outside the city. They do have route branding though, and have for over 10 years.

 

[robertclark125]

The reason Metro isn't included ehre is that it's not Council Owned; Belfast Corporation sold its bus services to what was then the Ulster Transport Authority (owners of Ulsterbus) in 1971, and it becamse Citybus, but using the same red and cream livery.

 

[fgwrich]

And although not a Council Owned bus company, another independent has been snapped up...

Fleet Buzz - a small remaining section of north Hampshire based Countywide, has apparently been snapped up by Stagecoach...So this will make things interesting in the North Hampshire / Surrey boarder areas. Firstly the 200 to Camberley get's merged with the 8 to Old Basing, then the 200 becomes the 10...The 10 then becomes a victim of Stagecoach Hampshire’s cutbacks and now only runs as far as Old Basing & Hook...But, just as one longer distance link is axed, we then gain the 13 - Route 28 (Basingstoke to Alton, every 2 hours) then becomes extended into a Alton to Liphook route...which now runs every hour...Which is abit on the odd side, as the 10 to Camberley was hourly but described as a non profitable long distance route, with a half hourly shuttle to Hook (Always a Dekka due to loadings - Hook Shuttle is always a drat),...But the every 2 hourly Alton service - usually a Dekka has loadings a Alexander PS would easily manage - let alone, really a dart!

Oh well, What comes around goes around!

 

[shinkansen1966]

A contributor to another forum thinks that some London red bus routes are run on some kind of commerical basis. As I understand it, all TfL routes are all run a contract basis: TfL pays a bus company to run the service to a TfL agreed timetable. TfL sets and keeps the fares.

I'd appreciate some clarification.

 

[anthony263]

A contributor to another forum thinks that some London red bus routes are run on some kind of commerical basis. As I understand it, all TfL routes are all run a contract basis: TfL pays a bus company to run the service to a TfL agreed timetable. TfL sets and keeps the fares.

I'd appreciate some clarification.

I think about 99 % are contracted services, I think there is 1 route which is commercialy operated in the south west part of London which is a non TFL service but as part of the route runs into TFL territory it uses a red liveried bus.


I will have a look for what route is it later on today.

 

[Schnellzug]

The trouble with anything being owned by Councils is that Councils cut budgets even more often than central Government does.
Since Bournemouth Council sold off Yellow Buses in about '06, the fleet & the route network has expanded enormously, and there's been quite a lot of investment in new Equipment as well as second hand ones from all over the place [even some of the earliest P reg low floor Darts have been smartly refurbished], and they've brightened up the livery and generally improved standards all round. I very much doubt whether that would've been possible if the Council had kept ownership.

in fact, I think the French (it was owned by Transdev until they swapped with RATP) seem to be doing a rather better job than the award winning British Go Ahead group, sionce Wilts & Dorset seem to be not too sure what they really want to do at the moment, they fiddle wtith things almost as much as YouTube.

 

[bb21]

The buying power and ease of access to funds is not something independent operators can compete with subsidiaries of large groups on. Transdev (and latterly RATP) have got the right mix of utilising these advantages and maintaining a more specialised local management team whose entire focus is on the Bournemouth / Poole conurbation. It is no coincidence that the company won Shire Operator of the Year in both 2009 and 2010, and was the runner-up this year.

Wilts & Dorset appear to have got a raw deal since the merger of the three neighbouring companies (plus some smaller ones) into Go-Ahead South Coast. I can understand the desire from the group HQ to save costs and have a smaller management team overseeing all three operations, however it definitely seems that the former Solent Blue Line operation has been stealing all the attention while people residing on the other side of the New Forest do not appear to be very high up their priority list with loads of cascades and very limited fleet investment. The only ones I am aware of since the merger have been a batch of Scania OmniCitys and the Scania N230UDs for the Purbeck routes. The network has shrunk considerably in the Bournemouth / Poole area compared to, say, 5 years ago, whereas Yellowbuses have expanded. It is hard not to get the feeling that the management team are not focusing as much in the area (despite the registered address of Go South Coast being where Wilts & Dorset used to occupy) as their counterparts at Yeoman’s Way.

 

[Deerfold]

A contributor to another forum thinks that some London red bus routes are run on some kind of commerical basis. As I understand it, all TfL routes are all run a contract basis: TfL pays a bus company to run the service to a TfL agreed timetable. TfL sets and keeps the fares.

I'd appreciate some clarification.

All TfL routes are run on the basis that the bus company gets a set amount (with bonuses/penalties based on timekeeping) with all fare monies being paid to TfL. Contracts are generally for 5 years with a possible extension for a further 2 based on performance although some shorter contracts are tendered.

TfL sets the frequencies. The company draws up a timetable and the two negotiate an agreed timetable.

When TfL began, some contracts were based on paying companies a certain amount on top of fares income (or even TfL being paid a certain amount). None of these contracts remain.

There are some bus routes within Greater London not contracted by TfL. A handful of these accept TfL tickets within the approximate boundaries of Greater London - they will receive a fixed amount per ticket from TfL. There is no obligation on these routes to be in a red livery. The number of these has reduced over the last few years (The 610 and 614 no longer accept TfL tickets). The 477 does still accept them.

The 84 is unusual in that it would probably be contracted to TfL if it did not run anyway. They are red but are not contractually obliged to be.

 

[shinkansen1966]

All TfL routes are run on the basis that the bus company gets a set amount (with bonuses/penalties based on timekeeping) with all fare monies being paid to TfL. Contracts are generally for 5 years with a possible extension for a further 2 based on performance although some shorter contracts are tendered.

TfL sets the frequencies. The company draws up a timetable and the two negotiate an agreed timetable.

When TfL began, some contracts were based on paying companies a certain amount on top of fares income (or even TfL being paid a certain amount). None of these contracts remain.

There are some bus routes within Greater London not contracted by TfL. A handful of these accept TfL tickets within the approximate boundaries of Greater London - they will receive a fixed amount per ticket from TfL. There is no obligation on these routes to be in a red livery. The number of these has reduced over the last few years (The 610 and 614 no longer accept TfL tickets). The 477 does still accept them.

The 84 is unusual in that it would probably be contracted to TfL if it did not run anyway. They are red but are not contractually obliged to be.

Thank you for this information. So a private London bus company just get contract money to run the service. TfL collect and retains any fares.

What about OAP free travel passes ? Does TfL give any money to the private bus operators in addition to the contract money, whenever an over 60s uses a London bus ?

 

[Deerfold]

Thank you for this information. So a private London bus company just get contract money to run the service. TfL collect and retains any fares.

What about OAP free travel passes ? Does TfL give any money to the private bus operators in addition to the contract money, whenever an over 60s uses a London bus ?

No. These are counted as any other passenger as far as the operator is concerned. They're already being paid to run the service. There is a payment from the London boroughs to TfL towards the cost of over 60s journeys.

What will happen of course is Bus Company A will say "This week we've collected £x million in fares". The contracts for the week will be for £y million pounds and a payment will be made for the diffference, invariably *to* the operator. (This is just an example - I don't know how often payments are made.)