Couple fined for getting off train early

[GodAtum]

I do feel sorry for them!

A couple have had to pay a £114 fine after getting off a train two stops early.

Emma Clark and Davyd Winter-Bates were travelling to Southampton from London with South West Trains when they decided to get off two stops early at Eastleigh.

http://uk.travel.yahoo.com/p-promo-3359792

 

[sonic2009]

I do feel sorry for them!



http://uk.travel.yahoo.com/p-promo-3359792

yes, but they did have advance tickets, which state you cannot break journey !

 

[First class]

Let that be a warning to those with Megatrain or similar tickets wanting to travel short!

 

[Jordy]

First time I've heard anything like that happen, so much for an "unenforceable" rule. It does seem a bit harsh though - that's a big fine!

 

[theblackwatch]

First time I've heard anything like that happen, so much for an "unenforceable" rule. It does seem a bit harsh though - that's a big fine!

It appears to be a fine by SWT rather than something that actually went to court.

 

[Jordy]

Yeh and having actually read the article () I see its the standard penalty fare.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Megatrain Terms and Conditions:

4. Bookings are only valid on the journey(s) and places stated.


They agreed to these terms and conditions, they have no cause for complaint when they chose to break them.

 

[route:oxford]

That's why it is so important to have an additional valid ticket between prior station and the station you plan to exit at on Megatrain.

 

[nedchester]

That's why it is so important to have an additional valid ticket between prior station and the station you plan to exit at on Megatrain.

Exactly!!

 

[222007]

Sorry to sound harsh but i have no sympathy

 

[PTF62]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it 'breaking your journey' actually involves leaving the train station. Do you 'break the journey' by getting off the train, but not leaving the train station?

Since they had not left the train station (although they obviously intended to), could you then change your mind about 'breaking your journey' and actually leaving the train station, and tell the ticket inspector that you will get on the next train to complete your journey.

Now obviously the tickets that they had limited them to a specific train, so they wouldn't have valid tickets to complete the remainder, but the penalty fare of £20 (as the ticket for the remainder of the journey would cost £3.20) would be better than the penalty of £57 that they paid.

 

[Ferret]

Megatrain Terms and Conditions:

4. Bookings are only valid on the journey(s) and places stated.


They agreed to these terms and conditions, they have no cause for complaint when they chose to break them.

I completely agree, though it's a bit of a PR disaster when you consider what the travelling public at large will make of it!

 

[Matt Taylor]

May I also add that we are only hearing one side of the story here, experience suggests that something else happened that this couple don't want made public.

Just a reminder, perhaps a pertinent one given what happened not long ago with a wheelchair user trying to get from Manchester to Guide Bridge.

 

[nedchester]

I completely agree, though it's a bit of a PR disaster when you consider what the travelling public at large will make of it!

It's an example of the railway shooting itself in the foot again.

As for reading terms and conditions how many people here can honestly say that for everything they buy they read ALL the terms and conditions??

 

[Matt Taylor]

I freely admit to not always reading the T+Cs, but then I don't go around complaining to the media when karma decides to pay a visit.

 

[devon_metro]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it 'breaking your journey' actually involves leaving the train station. Do you 'break the journey' by getting off the train, but not leaving the train station?

Since they had not left the train station (although they obviously intended to), could you then change your mind about 'breaking your journey' and actually leaving the train station, and tell the ticket inspector that you will get on the next train to complete your journey.

Now obviously the tickets that they had limited them to a specific train, so they wouldn't have valid tickets to complete the remainder, but the penalty fare of £20 (as the ticket for the remainder of the journey would cost £3.20) would be better than the penalty of £57 that they paid.

The point that has been missed is that mega train is valid for the train stated on a very limited number of trains on a limited number of routes. Eastleigh - London is not a megatrain route so you can't leave at Eastleigh with said ticket!

 

[PTF62]

so you can't leave at Eastleigh with said ticket!

I agree completely.

But as I asked before, what happens if you say that you want to complete the journey, so you have not 'broken your journey'.

I understand that the rules on these tickets are that you 'must not break your journey'. If you do get off the train, don't leave the station, but do arrive at the destination on your ticket, according to the NCOC you have not had a 'break in your journey', and not broken any of the terms and conditions of the ticket.

The problem is that although you have not had a break in the journey and broken any conditions, you do not have a valid ticket for the second part. So can you just buy a normal £3.40 Eastleigh to Southampton ticket and complete the journey?

 

[Matt Taylor]

As stated earlier:

4. Bookings are only valid on the journey(s) and places stated.

The booking would have said London Waterloo and Southampton, no mention of Eastleigh whatsoever. The ticket is invalid at Eastleigh and thus a PF is the appropriate action.

 

[mrcheek]

But as I asked before, what happens if you say that you want to complete the journey, so you have not 'broken your journey'.

I understand that the rules on these tickets are that you 'must not break your journey'. If you do get off the train, don't leave the station, but do arrive at the destination on your ticket, according to the NCOC you have not had a 'break in your journey', and not broken any of the terms and conditions of the ticket.

The problem is that although you have not had a break in the journey and broken any conditions, you do not have a valid ticket for the second part. So can you just buy a normal £3.40 Eastleigh to Southampton ticket and complete the journey?

Most likely, if on leaving the platform and getting a ticket check you were to think quickly, and say "oh, sorry, I wasnt feeling well, had to get off, and now Im just looking for the toilet" you could get away with it.

Also, if you admitted a mistake, and apologised to the conductor, and took out your wallet offering to pay the extra necessary fare, you would also get away with it.

Ill bet you any money that when being challenged on the platform, this couple started shouting and swearing at the staff. Or possibly let slip that their car was parked right there, giving away the fact that they had planned their scam all along......

 

[PTF62]

As stated earlier:
The booking would have said London Waterloo and Southampton, no mention of Eastleigh whatsoever. The ticket is invalid at Eastleigh and thus a PF is the appropriate action.

Yes I agree, the ticket is valid under the terms of the National Conditions of Carriage between London Waterloo and Southampton with no 'break of journey allowed'.

But a 'break of journey' is specifically defined in the NCOC as leaving the train station. Merely getting off the train at Eastleigh is not a 'break of journey'. If you reach Southampton without leaving railway property, you have not had a 'break of journey'.

So you have not invalidated your London Waterloo to Southampton ticket, you just don't have a valid Eastleigh to Southampton ticket.

Now I appreciate this may seem a perverse argument, but the whole premise of Southwest Train's argument seems to "that's the rules", so I just wondered what are the rules.

 

[yorkie]

Yes I agree, the ticket is valid under the terms of the National Conditions of Carriage between London Waterloo and Southampton with no 'break of journey allowed'.

But a 'break of journey' is specifically defined in the NCOC as leaving the train station. Merely getting off the train at Eastleigh is not a 'break of journey'. If you reach Southampton without leaving railway property, you have not had a 'break of journey'.

Agreed. If the train was still in the platform when challenged, then they could have gone back down to it in time, and got back on. They would then not have broken any conditions.

So you have not invalidated your London Waterloo to Southampton ticket, you just don't have a valid Eastleigh to Southampton ticket.

Now I appreciate this may seem a perverse argument, but the whole premise of Southwest Train's argument seems to "that's the rules", so I just wondered what are the rules.

I'm not sure about that. But I reckon that if the couple had fought it, SWT may have been rather reluctant to take it to court, perhaps as reluctant as GNER were....

 

[Ferret]

It's an example of the railway shooting itself in the foot again.

As for reading terms and conditions how many people here can honestly say that for everything they buy they read ALL the terms and conditions??

Well, indeed - but then whose fault is that?

 

[yorkie]

Most likely, if on leaving the platform and getting a ticket check you were to think quickly, and say "oh, sorry, I wasnt feeling well, had to get off, and now Im just looking for the toilet" you could get away with it.

Yes if someone was feeling unwell, I do not see how the TOC could deny them access to fresh air/medical attention etc. However it is unclear how ill you'd need to be to justify that, and what steps they could do to check. Answers to that would be interesting but probably won't be forthcoming.

Also, if you admitted a mistake, and apologised to the conductor, and took out your wallet offering to pay the extra necessary fare, you would also get away with it.

As I said in the other topic, if you are admitting a mistake, it's a penalty fare (where PFs apply). If you admit that it is deliberate, then potentially they could prosecute, but I feel this would be risky for the TOC, and TOCs tend to only prosecute where they can be sure of getting a conviction (before anyone says "How do you know?" my source for this is a poster by EC saying they have been successful in all cases. I know EC have not existed for very long and are not the same company as SWT, but they probably work on a similar basis.

Ill bet you any money that when being challenged on the platform, this couple started shouting and swearing at the staff. Or possibly let slip that their car was parked right there, giving away the fact that they had planned their scam all along......

We really cannot possibly infer that at all. RPIs who are looking to catch people out, will do just that, to any law-abiding person, they do not just go after people who start shouting and swearing. And if they had let out it was a 'scam all along' then that is a misuse of a PF, surely, as if it really was against the rules and was deliberate then that's an MG11 not a PF. Unless, of course, the TOC is scared of not winning the case. But if the TOC is so sure it's against the rules and if the person had admitted it, what would they be afraid of?

 

[nedchester]

Well, indeed - but then whose fault is that?

But there again common sense (i.e. not railway sense) would normally that travelling less distance would mean you weren't getting the full value out of the ticket and therefore no loss to SWT.

It's like buying a pack of four tins of beans because you only want three and three individual ones are more expensive than the four pack. Sainsbury's wouldn't come ranting and fining you if you threw one tin in the bin in the car park would they??!!!

 

[yorkie]

Well, indeed - but then whose fault is that?

I bet the banks said the same thing before they got reprimanded for dodgy practices hidden in small print

 

[Ferret]

But there again common sense (i.e. not railway sense) would normally that travelling less distance would mean you weren't getting the full value out of the ticket and therefore no loss to SWT.

It's like buying a pack of four tins of beans because you only want three and three individual ones are more expensive than the four pack. Sainsbury's wouldn't come ranting and fining you if you threw one tin in the bin in the car park would they??!!!

Well exactly, that's why it's a PR disaster!

But then, you raised the specific point about how many of us don't read the T&Cs. Let's be honest - we've all just ticked the box and moved on but then if it comes back to bite us on the backside, it's our own fault for not reading the conditions!

 

[Mojo]

This is about the 4th time this has been posted today. Even I posted it after lunchtime without noticing

Discussion can be found towards the end of: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=36132