Couplings between carriages

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ryan125hst

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Back in the days of steam, carriages were coupled using buffers and a chain or by a Buckeye Coupler (Buckeye between coaches and buffers and a chain for the loco? I’m not 100% sure on the mechanical connections). A vacuum brake pipe was used to provide a fail safe automatic brake throughout the train and a steam heating pipe allowed steam from the locomotive to be piped throughout the train to heat the carriages in winter. This continued for early diesel locomotives as they were fitted with vacuum brakes and a diesel power steam heating boiler to allow the carriages to be heated in the same way as before.

By the late 1960’s and into the 1970’s, locomotives and carriages were fitted with a two pipe air brake system and Mark 2A carriages didn’t have vacuum brakes at all (the original Mark 2’s and some Mark 1’s were dual brakes). In the early 1970’s trains were increasingly becoming electrically heated, due to the presence of a large diesel generator on the front of every train no doubt! Early Mark 2’s simply had electric heaters whereas later models also had air conditioning and relied on the Electric Train Supply for charging the batteries to power the lights as well (coaches used to use a wheel driven dynamo for this purpose). The Mark 3’s and 4’s now rely on ETS for their lights, heating and air con, cooking and power sockets.

So, a British Rail Mark 1 carriage that is dual braked and dual heated would have a mechanical coupler, a vacuum brake pipe, two air brake pipes (automatic air brake and main reservoir), steam heating pipe, two Electric Train Supply cables and finally two RCH (Railway Clearing House) cables to allow the guard to switch the lights throughout the train on and off from one place (these cables are now also used for Public Address and for remote control signals to the locomotive on push-pull trains).

As you can probably see, I enjoy learning about these technical aspects as I’m not old enough to remember the BR Blue era never mind the steam age yet can tell you all I have said above.

With this in mind however, there’s a couple of photos I’ve seen lately that has confused me:

First of all, this photograph of a Mark 1 coach shows a second electrical jumper cable, the one that is positioned vertically and not diagonally as with the ETS cable. The cable is a lot thinner than the ETS cable and there also appears to be a socket on the left hand side of the coach to the left of the red air brake pipe but to the right of the ETS socket. Does anyone know what it is?

Secondly, what is that thinner cable on this Caledonian Sleeper Mark 3? Again, there’s a smaller socket that is to the right of the ETS socket (the former is a lot cleaner than the latter). There’s then a thin cable with a connector visible beneath the left buffer and a thin cable can also be seen to the right of the coupler. Note the thick ETS cable, so it’s definitely something different. This second photo provides another angle if that helps you. Does anyone know what it is for? Is this the same thing as on the Mark 1? It looks like there are two additional connections here, one which, like the ETS connection, has a cable plugged in to a dummy socket and plugs into a connector, but that cable beneath the left buffer then appears to be something else.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Many thanks

Ryan
 
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Taunton

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Original Mk 2 stock was vacuum, not dual braked, and was easily mixed with Mk 1. In fact very little stock was dual braked, which is notably complex to arrange (although many locomotives were). Whole rakes were formed of Mk 2a and upwards air brake stock during the changeover, including the Mk 1 catering vehicles and BGs, which had to be converted. Some of the original Mk 1 stock, like that sent to the Edinburgh-Glasgow high speed push-pull in 1971, also had to be refitted with air brakes.
 

Domh245

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Not 100% sure, but...

I think that the thin cable on the Mk3 photos is the TDM cable. This is used to transmit controls from a DVT to a locomotive (possibly plus other things like CDL). Similar cables can (could) be seen on many locos

The plugs look to be the same on both the Mk1 and the Mk3 examples
 

dubscottie

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First of all, this photograph of a Mark 1 coach shows a second electrical jumper cable, the one that is positioned vertically and not diagonally as with the ETS cable. The cable is a lot thinner than the ETS cable and there also appears to be a socket on the left hand side of the coach to the left of the red air brake pipe but to the right of the ETS socket. Does anyone know what it is?

Secondly, what is that thinner cable on this Caledonian Sleeper Mark 3? Again, there’s a smaller socket that is to the right of the ETS socket (the former is a lot cleaner than the latter). There’s then a thin cable with a connector visible beneath the left buffer and a thin cable can also be seen to the right of the coupler. Note the thick ETS cable, so it’s definitely something different. This second photo provides another angle if that helps you. Does anyone know what it is for? Is this the same thing as on the Mark 1? It looks like there are two additional connections here, one which, like the ETS connection, has a cable plugged in to a dummy socket and plugs into a connector, but that cable beneath the left buffer then appears to be something else.

Can anyone shed any light on this?

Many thanks

Ryan

The cable on the Mk1 looks like the extra supply for a RBR that was fitted to some Mk2's while Anglia Railways still used Mk1 Buffet's.

I think the electric for the cooking equipment was taken from the First Open rather than from the ETS on the Mk1.

The cable on the sleeper was originally for the fire alarm system but was fitted to most LHCS and is also used now for the central door locking.
 
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ryan125hst

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Original Mk 2 stock was vacuum, not dual braked, and was easily mixed with Mk 1. In fact very little stock was dual braked, which is notably complex to arrange (although many locomotives were). Whole rakes were formed of Mk 2a and upwards air brake stock during the changeover, including the Mk 1 catering vehicles and BGs, which had to be converted. Some of the original Mk 1 stock, like that sent to the Edinburgh-Glasgow high speed push-pull in 1971, also had to be refitted with air brakes.

Thanks for the info Taunton. I saw mention of the Mark 2's being fitted with dual brakes on Wikipedia but of course Wikipedia is often wrong. I never realised dual braking was difficult and therefore a rarity. I'm guessing the safety critical nature of the brakes combined with the fact that the vacuum brakes were a very old system whereas the air brakes were a lot newer and more complex led to problems.

Presumably it the catering vehicles and brake vans were the most common type of vehicle that ended up being dual braked to allow them to work in sets of either type?

Domh245 said:
Not 100% sure, but...

I think that the thin cable on the Mk3 photos is the TDM cable. This is used to transmit controls from a DVT to a locomotive (possibly plus other things like CDL). Similar cables can (could) be seen on many locos

The plugs look to be the same on both the Mk1 and the Mk3 examples

That cable is actually higher than the ones I was referring to as the one I speak of it on the buffer beam where as these cables (actually originally RCH cables used for lighting control and date back to the Mark 1 coaches, maybe before actually) are above this. You are correct though in that these cables were (and presumably still are on the Great Eastern Main Line?) used for the TDM system to remote control a locomotive from a DBSO or DVT. The photos you linked to of the locos definitely show these RCH/TDM connections.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The cable on the Mk1 looks like the extra supply for a RBR that was fitted to some Mk2's while Anglia Railways still used Mk1 Buffet's.

I think the electric for the cooking equipment was taken from the First Open rather than from the ETS on the Mk1.

Presumably they decided to remove the gas catering equipment and fit electric equipment but the Mark 1 electric heating system takes the power straight of the 1000v Electric Train Supply and maybe they found it easier to do this than fit a motor alternator to the Mark 1 coaches? Were all First Opens fitted with this or just a limited number meaning they had to make sure they marshaled these coaches next to the RBR? I'm guessing this was just a connection from the 415v three phase supply from the motor alternator.

Is that socket on the left hand side of the Mark 1 coach part of the system as well, so both the Mark 1 RBR and the Mark 2 First Open has a cable coming from it that can connect to a dummy socket when not in use and a socket for the cable from the other vehicle to connect to?

The cable on the sleeper was originally for the fire alarm system but was fitted to most LHCS and is also used now for the central door locking.

Another interesting one as I have never heard of this before so thank you for this info. :) I always thought they used the standard RCH cables for the central door locking but I don't know whether I read that somewhere or whether I just assumed it was the case. Have they fitted the same connections to the central door locking fitted air con Mark 2's as well?
 

Taunton

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I don't believe any Mk 2 stock was fitted with dual brakes, and I think the author has confused the issue with dual heating (steam and electric), which all the pre-air con Mk 2 stock had. Steam heating was standard from diesels up to the end of the 1960s, but electrically-hauled services had electric train heating (ETH), as did the whole of the Southern Region. Quite a lot of Mk 1 stock was converted to dual heat as well.

The issue with dual braking is fairly basic, if you disconnect the vacuum pipes the vacuum cylinder applies the brakes hard on, if you then connect up the air pipes the vacuum cylinder remains pulling the brakes hard on, and can't have a vacuum created to release ... you will appreciate it can be handled, but it is a mechanical complexity. Of the 1,400 Mk 1 SO vehicles built, just 6 in 1976 had dual brakes, and none of the initial Mk 2 build did - they were one or the other.

Vacuum and air brakes are actually from the same Victorian era, it is just that vacuum equipment is a lot simpler and cheaper, and not as powerful. George Westinghouse, the US inventor of the air brake, tied his patents down tightly and his successors collected considerable sums over time for supplying them.

Gas cooking equipment, with propane gas bottles between the bogies, has the advantage over electric that it can be used when a locomotive is not connected, just as the train lighting is on battery then. In the days when the locomotive was attached at the front 10 minutes before departure this was a major point, and obviously steam locomotives could not supply electricity at all, nor the early diesels. Special gas-powered refrigerators were used as well. Early Mk 1 catering stock actually used the "anthracite-electric" system devised by the LNER, where cooking was by coal (anthracite), with dynamo-recharged battery electric fans to draw the air through the fire.

My first thought looking at those cables that had been added was they were for supplying an electric supply from a ground connection when the vehicle is standing without a locomotive attached.
 

Jonfun

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The issue with dual braking is fairly basic, if you disconnect the vacuum pipes the vacuum cylinder applies the brakes hard on, if you then connect up the air pipes the vacuum cylinder remains pulling the brakes hard on, and can't have a vacuum created to release ... you will appreciate it can be handled, but it is a mechanical complexity. Of the 1,400 Mk 1 SO vehicles built, just 6 in 1976 had dual brakes, and none of the initial Mk 2 build did - they were one or the other.

That isn't correct.

The vacuum cylinder is provided with a simple valve which when operated will admit air into the reservoir side of the cylinder thus leaving both sides at atmosphere and hence releasing the brakes. No mechanically complex arrangement whatsoever.
 

ryan125hst

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First of all, thank you Taunton for your detailed information. I don't post as often as some but I do tend to read the forum most days but sometimes wonder why I bother when I see arguments occurring etc, but your post has shown why it was worth it to become a member five years ago. It's a very detailed and informative post so thank you. :)

Taunton said:
I don't believe any Mk 2 stock was fitted with dual brakes, and I think the author has confused the issue with dual heating (steam and electric), which all the pre-air con Mk 2 stock had. Steam heating was standard from diesels up to the end of the 1960s, but electrically-hauled services had electric train heating (ETH), as did the whole of the Southern Region. Quite a lot of Mk 1 stock was converted to dual heat as well.

The issue with dual braking is fairly basic, if you disconnect the vacuum pipes the vacuum cylinder applies the brakes hard on, if you then connect up the air pipes the vacuum cylinder remains pulling the brakes hard on, and can't have a vacuum created to release ... you will appreciate it can be handled, but it is a mechanical complexity. Of the 1,400 Mk 1 SO vehicles built, just 6 in 1976 had dual brakes, and none of the initial Mk 2 build did - they were one or the other.

Vacuum and air brakes are actually from the same Victorian era, it is just that vacuum equipment is a lot simpler and cheaper, and not as powerful. George Westinghouse, the US inventor of the air brake, tied his patents down tightly and his successors collected considerable sums over time for supplying them.

I wasn't aware that dual heating was so rare- 6 carriages is a very low number! Presumably it was slightly higher in the late 60's/early 70's? I would guess that there's more dual braked stock now as I'm sure many support coaches are dual braked, and I think the set that the Railway Touring Company use is dual brakes (I saw a photo showing the data panel on one of the coaches, although whether this was the case for the whole set or just that coach I don't know). I know that the West Coast set that The Cathedrals Express uses is Vacuum brake only which surprised me when I saw that when seeing Flying Scotsman at York a couple of weeks ago. I think most of Riviera's stock is air brake only.

Was it the case then that the RBR's and BG's had the air brake added and vacuum brakes removed, or did these tend to stay dual braked? I understand what you mean about the issues with going from one system to another as I read somewhere that they had to "pull the strings" to release the vacuum brake before charging the air brakes. That's not much of an issue in a carriage siding but when on a platform with a train that is running late and the train is 13 coaches long, it wouldn't have been a good situation to be in!

I guess that dual heating a train was a lot easier- just add the wiring and jumper cables and some heaters (as the heaters operate as the supply voltage don't they?). How does the steam heating system work? Does the steam simply get piped to the radiators or is it more complex than that? I guess switching from one heating type to the other just involved plugging it in so was far easier than with the brakes! The dual heating would have allowed the ETS fitted locos to have their steam heat boilers removed while still allowing the older steam heat only locos to heat the train. There was no choice of course once the air con Mark 2's arrived as they need an ETS supply even in summer to power their ventilation and air conditioning.

Taunton said:
Gas cooking equipment, with propane gas bottles between the bogies, has the advantage over electric that it can be used when a locomotive is not connected, just as the train lighting is on battery then. In the days when the locomotive was attached at the front 10 minutes before departure this was a major point, and obviously steam locomotives could not supply electricity at all, nor the early diesels. Special gas-powered refrigerators were used as well. Early Mk 1 catering stock actually used the "anthracite-electric" system devised by the LNER, where cooking was by coal (anthracite), with dynamo-recharged battery electric fans to draw the air through the fire.
It must have caused issues as they started to go over to an electric catering system supplied by the ETS during loco swaps when the power went off! Mind you, I guess by that time fixed formations and push pull working wasn't that far away was it?

Interesting stuff about the LNER system being used by Mark 1's. I thought they all used gas but clearly that wasn't the case. I also didn't realise that LNER's system used coal. I thought it was all electric, unless they had a system like that as well?

Taunton said:
My first thought looking at those cables that had been added was they were for supplying an electric supply from a ground connection when the vehicle is standing without a locomotive attached.

That's an interesting though, although I thought they just use a shore supply that plugs straight into the ETS sockets at the usual voltage. It may well be that it is only supply a certain thing, such as the catering equipment or battery charger, hence the different connection.
 

edwin_m

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A lot of parcels vans were dual braked because they went all over the place and could find themselves in a train with either kind of brakes. However I think the Mk1 vans and catering cars that were transferred to Mk2 aircon or Mk3 rakes were converted to air brake rather than being dual-fitted.

Anyone remember the aluminium knobs in Mk1 coaches that would (in theory) control the heating in each compartment? Some of these had a caption something like "This control operates the steam heating under this side of the compartment and the electric heating on both sides". Quite how the passengers were meant to know is a mystery, except when the steam heating was leaking when it would have been pretty obvious.
 

dubscottie

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Going by my Platform 5 book, 6 FO were fitted with the supply for a RBR. 3228,3279,3336,3338,3379 & 3399 all with Anglia.

I presume also that it was for a 3-phase supply.

As far as I know, all stock fitted with CDL has the extra jumper including HST vehicles.
 

Taunton

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Anyone remember the aluminium knobs in Mk1 coaches that would (in theory) control the heating in each compartment? Some of these had a caption something like "This control operates the steam heating under this side of the compartment and the electric heating on both sides". Quite how the passengers were meant to know is a mystery, except when the steam heating was leaking when it would have been pretty obvious.
Ah yes, for those of us of a "certain age" we can instantly recall those control knobs with four arms like an oversized old-fashioned bath tap. They were mounted at shoulder height each side of the window, and quite hard for (youthful) fingers to turn, for they controlled a flap on the steam heating pipe which was under the floor. I think there was a bicycle-chain mechanism connecting the two. They must have been a nuisance for C&W fitters to fix when jammed.

The principal problem with the otherwise well thought out Mk 1 stock was corrosion of the lower bodyside by rusting from the inside out through water penetration. Some of the water entered through imperfectly-sealed window frames, but a principal source was leakage from the steam heating pipes which were concealed inside the panelling and under the floorboards. The rusting often took hold within 5 years of construction, so a whole series of improvements to the construction details were made during the Mk 1 production run once the problems became apparent, which is why the later ones lasted much longer than the earlier ones. Changing to electric heat was a major contributor to extending carriage life.

I read somewhere that they had to "pull the strings" to release the vacuum brake before charging the air brakes.
This was also (sometimes) necessary at places like Banbury or Shrewsbury where through vacuum braked trains changed locos from ex-GWR ones to other company ones, as the GW locomotives had used 25" of vacuum whereas the other companies used 21", and so the brakes might not fully release when exhausted. The GW expression was "pull the cords". I'm sorry the GW so often looked at what everyone else did and then did the opposite, but that was just how it was. It would be unwise on this forum to say it was because it was better :)
 
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Furrball

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The mk1 is 6313, a generator van. I assume the 2nd connection is for ets coming from the generator with the original remaining for through wiring?
 

matchmaker

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Original Mk 2 stock was vacuum, not dual braked, and was easily mixed with Mk 1. In fact very little stock was dual braked, which is notably complex to arrange (although many locomotives were). Whole rakes were formed of Mk 2a and upwards air brake stock during the changeover, including the Mk 1 catering vehicles and BGs, which had to be converted. Some of the original Mk 1 stock, like that sent to the Edinburgh-Glasgow high speed push-pull in 1971, also had to be refitted with air brakes.

The original push pull sets were made up of Mk 2 stock, but fitted with air operated disc brakes in place of tread brakes.
 

matchmaker

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infobleep

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I don't believe any Mk 2 stock was fitted with dual brakes, and I think the author has confused the issue with dual heating (steam and electric), which all the pre-air con Mk 2 stock had. Steam heating was standard from diesels up to the end of the 1960s, but electrically-hauled services had electric train heating (ETH), as did the whole of the Southern Region. Quite a lot of Mk 1 stock was converted to dual heat as well.

The issue with dual braking is fairly basic, if you disconnect the vacuum pipes the vacuum cylinder applies the brakes hard on, if you then connect up the air pipes the vacuum cylinder remains pulling the brakes hard on, and can't have a vacuum created to release ... you will appreciate it can be handled, but it is a mechanical complexity. Of the 1,400 Mk 1 SO vehicles built, just 6 in 1976 had dual brakes, and none of the initial Mk 2 build did - they were one or the other.

Vacuum and air brakes are actually from the same Victorian era, it is just that vacuum equipment is a lot simpler and cheaper, and not as powerful. George Westinghouse, the US inventor of the air brake, tied his patents down tightly and his successors collected considerable sums over time for supplying them.

Gas cooking equipment, with propane gas bottles between the bogies, has the advantage over electric that it can be used when a locomotive is not connected, just as the train lighting is on battery then. In the days when the locomotive was attached at the front 10 minutes before departure this was a major point, and obviously steam locomotives could not supply electricity at all, nor the early diesels. Special gas-powered refrigerators were used as well. Early Mk 1 catering stock actually used the "anthracite-electric" system devised by the LNER, where cooking was by coal (anthracite), with dynamo-recharged battery electric fans to draw the air through the fire.

My first thought looking at those cables that had been added was they were for supplying an electric supply from a ground connection when the vehicle is standing without a locomotive attached.

Are there any surviving working examples of the old LNER catering stock?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

ryan125hst

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A lot of parcels vans were dual braked because they went all over the place and could find themselves in a train with either kind of brakes. However I think the Mk1 vans and catering cars that were transferred to Mk2 aircon or Mk3 rakes were converted to air brake rather than being dual-fitted.

Anyone remember the aluminium knobs in Mk1 coaches that would (in theory) control the heating in each compartment? Some of these had a caption something like "This control operates the steam heating under this side of the compartment and the electric heating on both sides". Quite how the passengers were meant to know is a mystery, except when the steam heating was leaking when it would have been pretty obvious.

That was a good decision for the parcel vans for that reason. Presumably it was decided to keep the converted Mark 1 vehicles in dedicated sets and so the removal of the vacuum brake equipment could therefore be justified.

I remember seeing those heating controls when I went on the NYMR a few years ago. I see what you meant as members of the general public won't have a clue what steam heating or electric heating is, and would have probably expected it to work even if a no-heat loco was on the front!

dubscottie said:
Going by my Platform 5 book, 6 FO were fitted with the supply for a RBR. 3228,3279,3336,3338,3379 & 3399 all with Anglia.

I presume also that it was for a 3-phase supply.

As far as I know, all stock fitted with CDL has the extra jumper including HST vehicles.

Not many were converted then. I guess the remaining sets retained gas or had Mark 3 catering vehicles as surely there were more than 6 sets on the route at that time. Do you have any photos of this cable given that the coach in the photo is a generator van converted from an BG so this isn't the connection in this case.

And thanks, it's a connection I didn't know about until now. Does it have an official name?

Taunton said:
This was also (sometimes) necessary at places like Banbury or Shrewsbury where through vacuum braked trains changed locos from ex-GWR ones to other company ones, as the GW locomotives had used 25" of vacuum whereas the other companies used 21", and so the brakes might not fully release when exhausted. The GW expression was "pull the cords". I'm sorry the GW so often looked at what everyone else did and then did the opposite, but that was just how it was. It would be unwise on this forum to say it was because it was better

Ah yes, i'd heard about this difference. I guess it kept staff on there toes during through workings to/from the western region!

Furrball said:
The mk1 is 6313, a generator van. I assume the 2nd connection is for ets coming from the generator with the original remaining for through wiring?

That's a good thought actually. The only thing that would make me doubt that is how much thinner this extra cable is. The ETH index is given as 75 on the coach (see left hand side) so it would have to be the same thickness as the normal cable I would have thought?

Early Mk 1 catering stock actually used the "anthracite-electric" system devised by the LNER, where cooking was by coal (anthracite), with dynamo-recharged battery electric fans to draw the air through the fire.

Looking into this Taunton, I think you've muddled up two systems. Take a look at this from the SVR rolling stock trust:

SVR Rolling Stock Trust said:
This Gresley designed carriage 7960 is the last surviving LNER Kitchen Composite and was built at Doncaster in 1936 to Diagram 187. The coach comprises an entrance vestibule giving access to the third-class saloon, seating 18, followed by the first-class saloon, seating 12. A side corridor leading from the first-class saloon gives access to a pantry compartment, kitchen and finally an attendant's lavatory.

The interior of the third-class saloon is finished in varnished teak with polished brass metal fittings, whilst the first-class saloon has quartered fiddle back veneered panels with mahogany trim and polished chrome metal fittings. The kitchen was originally equipped with a sink, refrigerated cupboards and an electric cooker and oven. Two Stones dynamos rated at 7·2kW where mounted on the underframe to provide power, belt driven from one of the axles and supplemented by batteries. The carriage rode on heavy-type compound bolster bogies. The body is 9ft 3in wide and length over buffers 63ft 6in.

It looks like the LNER used an all electric system with large batteries (I think I read 7 on another site) were charged before the journey, and these two dynamos totaling 14.4kw- a large amount of power in those days I'd have thought- were used to keep the batteries charged during the journey.

I have also seen mention of an anthracite based kitchen car though, but I think that was a different idea.
 

Taunton

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Looking into this Taunton, I think you've muddled up two systems.
I believe not. Let's quote from Parkin, "British Railways Mk 1 coaches":

"The [BR Mk 1] kitchen cars, built at Doncaster, followed many aspects of LNER design. Between the wars there had been a strong movement away from gas in coaches and Gresley had eliminated it completely by building all-electric kitchen cars. But axle-driven generators could not provide sufficient power ... this was too restrictive so anthracite stoves were developed leaving electricity for auxiliary services. BR took over this later combination ...".

The "all-electric" LNER Kitchen Composite described is relatively small, containing kitchen and both first and third class dining saloons in one vehicle, 30 dining seats overall. It was apparently built for a secondary run from Aberdeen to Inverness. The early BR cars, like the more mainstream LNER sets used on major long-distance expresses, were a far larger affair involving three coaches, a full kitchen car in the centre with multiple ovens etc, way beyond just battery power, a first class dining saloon car on one side, and a third class dining saloon car on the other, over 100 dining seats. All service from the kitchen had to be through gangway connections. The extent of dining provision on major expresses at the time, such as ECML and WCML, was very considerable in each train, which overall might be up to 15 coaches or more.

The LNER equivalents had been a triplet articulated set sharing bogies, in Gresley style, but the BR sets were three separate Mk 1 vehicles.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Maybe you wrote it!
No, not I. Hadn't seen it before. But good to see it wasn't contradictory.
 
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Furrball

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The cable on the Mk1 looks like the extra supply for a RBR that was fitted to some Mk2's while Anglia Railways still used Mk1 Buffet's.

I think the electric for the cooking equipment was taken from the First Open rather than from the ETS on the Mk1.

The cable on the sleeper was originally for the fire alarm system but was fitted to most LHCS and is also used now for the central door locking.

looking at it closer I believe that is the same cable on the MK1 generator as the MK3 sleeper (UIC cable?)
 

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Spartacus

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Are there any surviving working examples of the old LNER catering stock?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I know the NYMR has a working Gresley buffet, but what systems are on board I've no idea. There's probably more around through, they lasted longer than most ex-LNER stock, largely down to excellent riding, and the bogies were used under many Mk1 catering vehicles.
 

ryan125hst

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Thank you for your replies so far. I have now established that:

Mark 2 and 3 carriages that are fitted with Central Door Locking are fitted with an additional cable and socket. This can be seen in this photo with the cable visible below the brake pipes and the socket visible below the right hand buffer. The connection is identical on Mark 3 coaches as can be seen here and here.

I've also established that Mark 1's also have this connection where they are run in sets with Mark 2's or 3's with CDL.

Thanks for those photos dubscottie. I'm guessing the connector you refer to is the one on the right hand side to the right of the RCH cable and tail lamp iron. That would seem to match up with the orange connector beneath the C1 text on the Mark 2. If that's the case, what's the purpose of the blue connectors on each side of the coach? They look like standard single phase connectors to me, so I'm guessing a way of connecting the kitchen equipment to the mains via a shore supply at the depot?

Secondly, this photo of a Mark 2 DBSO has another socket to the left of the CDL socket. I'm presuming this is for Direct Rail Services push-pull with a Class 37?

Speaking of this CDL cable, does anyone know it's official name? I've looked through the document provided by the RSSB but nothing seems to fit. Is it the UIC 568 connector (number E016)? It is the only one that comes close, but it is listed as being used for Nightstock and ECML despite only being updates last year. E028 UIC inter-vehicle communication system seems to be the same connector but only the Mark 4 coach and Class 91 is listed in this case.

Finally, I'm still a bit confused by the Mark 3 sleeper connections. If the unconnected cable (seen near the brake hose here) is that connector for the CDL, then what is that other cable visible to the right of the coupler? Every other carriage just has a socket on the right hand side. It's definitely another cable though as it can be seen below the right hand buffer here (it's the thin cable, not the thick ETS cable).

This view of a single Mark 3 coach, while not of the highest resolution, shows these two thin cables. This photo shows that it is also connected to the Caledonian Sleeper Mark 2's.

Finally, this close up view at a depot appears to show an extra socket to the right of the CDL cable, to the left of the brake pipes. A jumper that would likely connect to the socket of the adjacent coach can be seen to the right of the buckeye coupler.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Incidentally, it appears that 6313 (that Mark 1 generator van I linked to in my op) has been refurbished at Eastleigh and is no longer fitted with that extra jumper cable and socket. See here for a photo (and thanks to http://www.carlswatson.com/trains.html for the great photos from Eastleigh works if he's a member on here :) )
 
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headshot119

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Thank you for your replies so far. I have now established that:

Mark 2 and 3 carriages that are fitted with Central Door Locking are fitted with an additional cable and socket. This can be seen in this photo with the cable visible below the brake pipes and the socket visible below the right hand buffer. The connection is identical on Mark 3 coaches as can be seen here and here.

I've also established that Mark 1's also have this connection where they are run in sets with Mark 2's or 3's with CDL.

Thanks for those photos dubscottie. I'm guessing the connector you refer to is the one on the right hand side to the right of the RCH cable and tail lamp iron. That would seem to match up with the orange connector beneath the C1 text on the Mark 2. If that's the case, what's the purpose of the blue connectors on each side of the coach? They look like standard single phase connectors to me, so I'm guessing a way of connecting the kitchen equipment to the mains via a shore supply at the depot?

Secondly, this photo of a Mark 2 DBSO has another socket to the left of the CDL socket. I'm presuming this is for Direct Rail Services push-pull with a Class 37?

Speaking of this CDL cable, does anyone know it's official name? I've looked through the document provided by the RSSB but nothing seems to fit. Is it the UIC 568 connector (number E016)? It is the only one that comes close, but it is listed as being used for Nightstock and ECML despite only being updates last year. E028 UIC inter-vehicle communication system seems to be the same connector but only the Mark 4 coach and Class 91 is listed in this case.

Finally, I'm still a bit confused by the Mark 3 sleeper connections. If the unconnected cable (seen near the brake hose here) is that connector for the CDL, then what is that other cable visible to the right of the coupler? Every other carriage just has a socket on the right hand side. It's definitely another cable though as it can be seen below the right hand buffer here (it's the thin cable, not the thick ETS cable).

This view of a single Mark 3 coach, while not of the highest resolution, shows these two thin cables. This photo shows that it is also connected to the Caledonian Sleeper Mark 2's.

Finally, this close up view at a depot appears to show an extra socket to the right of the CDL cable, to the left of the brake pipes. A jumper that would likely connect to the socket of the adjacent coach can be seen to the right of the buckeye coupler.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Incidentally, it appears that 6313 (that Mark 1 generator van I linked to in my op) has been refurbished at Eastleigh and is no longer fitted with that extra jumper cable and socket. See here for a photo (and thanks to http://www.carlswatson.com/trains.html for the great photos from Eastleigh works if he's a member on here :) )

Those connectors are purely to plug the coach in to provide a shore supply, and weren't fitted in BR service.

Source - I work at the heritage railway concerned, and fished that coach from its old resting place.
 

dubscottie

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Finally, I'm still a bit confused by the Mark 3 sleeper connections. If the unconnected cable (seen near the brake hose here) is that connector for the CDL, then what is that other cable visible to the right of the coupler? Every other carriage just has a socket on the right hand side. It's definitely another cable though as it can be seen below the right hand buffer here (it's the thin cable, not the thick ETS cable).

Its the cable for the fire alarm system and attendant communication as seen here on a Mk3 sleeper when new..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/5648219601/

If fire is detected the alarm sounds in the whole train. (to avoid a repeat of the fire at Taunton)

It may also be used for a WI-Fi connection now and that's why it may be fitted to the MK2 as well.
 
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47513 Severn

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I'm not sure what we are describing here as the CDL cable was originally used as such. Class 90 and 91 were equipped with them from new and that would predate the introduction of CDL by some time. See:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/15505745437
http://www.traintesting.com/images/90001_crewe_bmorrison.jpg

Both pictures clearly show the cables. I believe they were initially used for TDM communication on stock with the relevant cables (only Mark 4 at the time). I presume they were subsequently altered to carry both CDL and TDM signals.
 

dubscottie

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I'm not sure what we are describing here as the CDL cable was originally used as such. Class 90 and 91 were equipped with them from new and that would predate the introduction of CDL by some time. See:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/15505745437
http://www.traintesting.com/images/90001_crewe_bmorrison.jpg

Both pictures clearly show the cables. I believe they were initially used for TDM communication on stock with the relevant cables (only Mark 4 at the time). I presume they were subsequently altered to carry both CDL and TDM signals.

They are UIC TDM cables for use with Mk4 stock only (Mk4's don't have RCH jumpers).
Although they do control the doors on Mk4, they are not compatible with other stock (although Mk3 DVT's seemed to have them when new).

The CDL cable is different
 

ryan125hst

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I believe not. Let's quote from Parkin, "British Railways Mk 1 coaches":

"The [BR Mk 1] kitchen cars, built at Doncaster, followed many aspects of LNER design. Between the wars there had been a strong movement away from gas in coaches and Gresley had eliminated it completely by building all-electric kitchen cars. But axle-driven generators could not provide sufficient power ... this was too restrictive so anthracite stoves were developed leaving electricity for auxiliary services. BR took over this later combination ...".

The "all-electric" LNER Kitchen Composite described is relatively small, containing kitchen and both first and third class dining saloons in one vehicle, 30 dining seats overall. It was apparently built for a secondary run from Aberdeen to Inverness. The early BR cars, like the more mainstream LNER sets used on major long-distance expresses, were a far larger affair involving three coaches, a full kitchen car in the centre with multiple ovens etc, way beyond just battery power, a first class dining saloon car on one side, and a third class dining saloon car on the other, over 100 dining seats. All service from the kitchen had to be through gangway connections. The extent of dining provision on major expresses at the time, such as ECML and WCML, was very considerable in each train, which overall might be up to 15 coaches or more.

The LNER equivalents had been a triplet articulated set sharing bogies, in Gresley style, but the BR sets were three separate Mk 1 vehicles.

Apologies Taunton, I stand corrected. :)

headshot119 said:
Those connectors are purely to plug the coach in to provide a shore supply, and weren't fitted in BR service.

Source - I work at the heritage railway concerned, and fished that coach from its old resting place.

That's what I thought, thanks.

dubscottie said:
Its the cable for the fire alarm system and attendant communication as seen here on a Mk3 sleeper when new..

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pics-by-john/5648219601/

If fire is detected the alarm sounds in the whole train. (to avoid a repeat of the fire at Taunton)

It may also be used for a WI-Fi connection now and that's why it may be fitted to the MK2 as well.

Does that connection have an official name? There's no mention of it in that RSSB document, yet I can clearly see that cable in the photo of the sleeper coach when new. I wonder why it has been omitted given it's important roll in fire safely?

dubscottie said:
They are UIC TDM cables for use with Mk4 stock only (Mk4's don't have RCH jumpers).
Although they do control the doors on Mk4, they are not compatible with other stock (although Mk3 DVT's seemed to have them when new).

The CDL cable is different

Are you sure that this CDL cable isn't the same as the one used for the TDM on Mark 4's, Class 90's and Class 91's, even if the signals are incompatible? The RSSB document shows the UIC 568 connector to look the same as the UIC inter-vehicle communication cable. Maybe they used the same cable for the fitment of CDL?

It's still strange though that it only mentions Nightstar and ECML (no reference to a class of vehicle on the ECML) with no mention of Mark 2 or Mark 3 day stock.

Does anyone know more info about this?
 

Taunton

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I'll just add that the traditional gas in restaurant cars was the same as that originally supplied for lighting, oil gas, held at medium pressure, which had a poor reputation for rupturing and catching fire in accidents (eg Quintinshill and others). This is what Gresley and others were getting away from.

The BR standard was high pressure propane, the same as you take away on camping holidays, in replaceable gas bottles, again the same as you can get yourself. These are crush-proof and have anti-leak valves.

The thing that strikes me about that LNER restaurant car on Aberdeen-Inverness is it provided 12 First and 18 Third seats. I doubt nowadays you could ever sell 12 first class seats between these two places in a day, yet alone require that many first class seats for dining on one relatively short train, or even that proportion between first and third. There was probably a separate waiter for each class as well. What a different world. Someone else can say whether there were separate menus (and prices) in the two classes.
 

ryan125hst

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I'll just add that the traditional gas in restaurant cars was the same as that originally supplied for lighting, oil gas, held at medium pressure, which had a poor reputation for rupturing and catching fire in accidents (eg Quintinshill and others). This is what Gresley and others were getting away from.

The BR standard was high pressure propane, the same as you take away on camping holidays, in replaceable gas bottles, again the same as you can get yourself. These are crush-proof and have anti-leak valves.

I wasn't aware of the differences in gas used. Sounds like it was very dangerous so there's no wonder they moved to electric lighting and used other methods for cooking.

The thing that strikes me about that LNER restaurant car on Aberdeen-Inverness is it provided 12 First and 18 Third seats. I doubt nowadays you could ever sell 12 first class seats between these two places in a day, yet alone require that many first class seats for dining on one relatively short train, or even that proportion between first and third. There was probably a separate waiter for each class as well. What a different world. Someone else can say whether there were separate menus (and prices) in the two classes.

That certainly is a lot of seats in a restaurant car considering it isn't a main line. I know from the carriage working books I've found recently that services on the ECML into the 1970's had two restaurant vehicles, one with a kitchen and a buffet car and one with seats for diners. However, this would have been for a train of between 8 and 11 vehicles in total, and more than this on a few services. I wonder how many coaches the Aberdeen to Inverness service was typically formed of in this era?
 
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