Court Appearance

[jam1312]

Hi i'm looking for some advice regarding a pending court case.

I've recently been sent a court summons and the information laid out on the letter is That on the 25/05/2012 I was traveling from Treforest to Neath station. I had purchased a ticket from Treforest to Cardiff with the intent on arrival at Cardiff to purchase the Cardiff to Neath ticket - I did it this way because if I purchase a ticket from Treforest to Neath is nearly £5 more expensive than if I buy them separately. Upon arriving in Cardiff the train I needed to get to Neath was to depart in 2 mins so I rushed onto the platform and jumped on the train with the intention of a) purchasing my ticket on the train (but there was no guard which came around the train) b) purchasing my ticket from the unpaid fares booth in Neath......

So i get of the train in Neath and head straight to the unpaid fares office, while waiting in the queue 2 gentlemen come up to me to ask me to show them a ticket which i reply i'm just buying one, they ask me where i traveled from, i reply with Cardiff... then they proceed to escort me out of the queue to start filling in witness statement - i'm obliging at this point as i didn't really know what was going on. Anyway after they completed the witness statement I was then told that the matter would be reported to the train company etc. But I was let through the barrier without having to purchase a ticket.

I have now received a court summons for the 28/09/2012 and from what I understand of the matter I am being prosecuted/fined for having 'criminal intent not to buy a ticket and avoid paying the fare. On the letter i have it says - Contrary to S.5 (3) (b) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 as amended by section 84 (2) of the Transport Act 1962 and section 18 of the British Railways Act 1970. If the matter ends up going to court whats likely to happen? e.g. will i receive a criminal conviction and a criminal record if prosecuted? Also is there still a possibility i may be able speak to the prosecutor regarding settling the matter out of court?

One other thing that's bugging me, I don't understand how it's gone this far considering it is my first EVER 'offence' on the railways and police in general and the fact that I had the means to pay and was very willing to pay my fare at the unpaid fare booth. But yet they complete a witness statement and let me out of the station without paying .

Thanks in advance for any help its really appreciated thanks!

 

[williamus]

Hi i'm looking for some advice regarding a pending court case.

I've recently been sent a court summons and the information laid out on the letter is That on the 25/05/2012 I was traveling from Treforest to Neath station. I had purchased a ticket from Treforest to Cardiff with the intent on arrival at Cardiff to purchase the Cardiff to Neath ticket - I did it this way because if I purchase a ticket from Treforest to Neath is nearly £5 more expensive than if I buy them separately. Upon arriving in Cardiff the train I needed to get to Neath was to depart in 2 mins so I rushed onto the platform and jumped on the train with the intention of a) purchasing my ticket on the train (but there was no guard which came around the train) b) purchasing my ticket from the unpaid fares booth in Neath......

So i get of the train in Neath and head straight to the unpaid fares office, while waiting in the queue 2 gentlemen come up to me to ask me to show them a ticket which i reply i'm just buying one, they ask me where i traveled from, i reply with Cardiff... then they proceed to escort me out of the queue to start filling in witness statement - i'm obliging at this point as i didn't really know what was going on. Anyway after they completed the witness statement I was then told that the matter would be reported to the train company etc. But I was let through the barrier without having to purchase a ticket.

I have now received a court summons for the 28/09/2012 and from what I understand of the matter I am being prosecuted/fined for having 'criminal intent not to buy a ticket and avoid paying the fare. On the letter i have it says - Contrary to S.5 (3) (b) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 as amended by section 84 (2) of the Transport Act 1962 and section 18 of the British Railways Act 1970. If the matter ends up going to court whats likely to happen? e.g. will i receive a criminal conviction and a criminal record if prosecuted? Also is there still a possibility i may be able speak to the prosecutor regarding settling the matter out of court?

One other thing that's bugging me, I don't understand how it's gone this far considering it is my first EVER 'offence' on the railways and police in general and the fact that I had the means to pay and was very willing to pay my fare at the unpaid fare booth. But yet they complete a witness statement and let me out of the station without paying .

Thanks in advance for any help its really appreciated thanks!

See a solicitor. If the charge depends on them proving that you acted with "criminal intent not to buy a ticket" then you may have a defence. But I'd take legal advice.

 

[oversteer]

For future reference you can buy both tickets at Treforest. (Essentially, any National Rail station can sell any ticket)

From ATW's perspective (or whoever the TOC is)
- The train being "about to depart" is generally not a good reason to not have a ticket (you should have arranged to get there earlier)
- If you were travelling Treforest to Neath it looks suspicious if you only have a ticket to Cardiff, because even if split ticketing you could have bought both tickets at Treforest.

They have pushed for the slightly more strict "intent to avoid fare" offense which surprises me given that you were stopped while waiting in the excess ticket queue and hadn't attempted to leave the station. Unfortunately if found guilty this will result in a criminal record for you so whatever you can do to settle out of court beforehand will be worth attempting.

 

[jam1312]

For future reference you can buy both tickets at Treforest. (Essentially, any National Rail station can sell any ticket)

From ATW's perspective (or whoever the TOC is)
- The train being "about to depart" is generally not a good reason to not have a ticket (you should have arranged to get there earlier)
- If you were travelling Treforest to Neath it looks suspicious if you only have a ticket to Cardiff, because even if split ticketing you could have bought both tickets at Treforest.

They have pushed for the slightly more strict "intent to avoid fare" offense which surprises me given that you were stopped while waiting in the excess ticket queue and hadn't attempted to leave the station. Unfortunately if found guilty this will result in a criminal record for you so whatever you can do to settle out of court beforehand will be worth attempting.

I understand it looks suspicious but I thought that if I was a Treforest I was only able to purchase tickets for Treforest to whichever destination I didn't know that you could purchase tickets for Cardiff onwards.
Also with getting to the station earlier I would have if I could have done, I had just finished uni jumped on a train to go to my girlfriends house and had someone waiting at Neath to pick me up - they couldn't wait longer therefore I would have been stuck in Neath. Thanks for your help its much appreciated

 

[oversteer]

Can you remember exactly what you said to the revenue inspector when they stopped you at the excess fares queue ?

Does the letter mention your journey at all? Did they think you started at Treforest or Cardiff?

Did you show them your ticket from Treforest to Cardiff ?


On the face of it, you didn't try to avoid your fare at all, so it's puzzling that they have gone down that road. It may be worth getting professional advice here, as it seems a bit harsh to even expect you to pay a large out of court settlement.

 

[222007]

For what my opinion is worth. Could they prove intent to travel well yes because you did make the journey but to prove intent to avoid the payment could be tricky as you say you were stood in the que to purchase a ticket. It might be worth contacting the railway company to see if they will accept an out of court settlement

 

[ainsworth74]

I find it a bit odd that they're trying to prosecute using RoRA S.5 as I don't think they'd be able to prove intent in avoiding the fare as by your version of events you were picked up in the queue to buy a ticket. However, they must have decided from your statement and the information provided by the RPIs that they do have a case under RoRA S.5. If you're found guilty under RoRA S.5 you'd be liable for a fine and more importantly you would get a criminal record. As such I'd advise that you seek an out of court settlement, assuming this is your first offence most TOCs are fairly receptive to such offers.

Moving on to the next charge under Byelaw 18, here you are undeniable guilty. Byelaw 18 states that:

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

The only exceptions to this is where there was no opportunity to buy before travel. Clearly at a station like Cardiff there is opportunity and the need to catch the train two minutes after arrival is not an excuse. Byelaws are strict liability meaning that they don't need to prove intent or anything else. The question basically is "Did the passenger board without a ticket?" and if the answer is "yes" then the result is "guilty". Here you'd be liable to receive a fine but more importantly you should not get a criminal record.

I'd suggest that it would be wise to speak to a solicitor to get proper legal advice (we're not lawyers here ) but I think your best course of action would be to consider writing to which ever TOCs prosecutions department (I assume ATW?) has brought the action and offer to settle out of court. They are not required to agree but for first time offenders they're normally fairly receptive.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Unless I have missed something, they don't appear to be bringing a prosecution under the byelaws, although I agree that he has contravened them.

 

[ainsworth74]

Unless I have missed something, they don't appear to be bringing a prosecution under the byelaws, although I agree that he has contravened them.

Oh yes, my apologies I misread the OPs post. I saw:

and section 18 of the British Railways Act 1970.

And my head immediately went Byelaw 18

 

[GadgetMan]

Perhaps there's been a misunderstanding between the passenger and the RPI. If the passenger told the RPi that he had travelled from Cardiff (which is barriered), and the conversation did not reveal that he had originally travelled in from treforest with a Valid ticket. Then it is understandable that the RPI would think the passenger is lying about starting his journey in Cardiff without a ticket and assuming the passenger is not being honest.

I think the OP needs to tell us exactly what conversation took place with RPI and whether the whole journey along with original ticket was mentioned.

 

[34D]

I understand it looks suspicious but I thought that if I was a Treforest I was only able to purchase tickets for Treforest to whichever destination I didn't know that you could purchase tickets for Cardiff onwards.
Also with getting to the station earlier I would have if I could have done, I had just finished uni jumped on a train to go to my girlfriends house and had someone waiting at Neath to pick me up - they couldn't wait longer therefore I would have been stuck in Neath. Thanks for your help its much appreciated

Was the ticket office at Treforest open when you bought your ticket (or did you buy from machine, etc)?

I agree that you need to speak with a solicitor. They have two offences (well, among others) that you could be prosecuted under. I don't think that you are guilty of the RoRA s.5 offence (based on what is written here) and the byelaw 18 offence is not something you appear to be being prosecuted for.

Do NOT attempt to call or write to ATW yourself, as you may well slip up.

 

[Flamingo]

Of course, the fact that (as far as I am aware, and I work the line) there is no excess fares window in Neath might cause more questions than answers, and explain why it is not a Bylaw 18 prosecution...

 

[jam1312]

Of course, the fact that (as far as I am aware, and I work the line) there is no excess fares window in Neath might cause more questions than answers, and explain why it is not a Bylaw 18 prosecution...

Hi, it wasn't the excess fares window it was the bit on the right hand side as your going out of the barriers - i think it was an unpaid fares office but i'm unsure now you've mentioned that.... needless to say there was a guard with a ticket machine issuing tickets
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was the ticket office at Treforest open when you bought your ticket (or did you buy from machine, etc)?

I agree that you need to speak with a solicitor. They have two offences (well, among others) that you could be prosecuted under. I don't think that you are guilty of the RoRA s.5 offence (based on what is written here) and the byelaw 18 offence is not something you appear to be being prosecuted for.

Do NOT attempt to call or write to ATW yourself, as you may well slip up.

I bought my ticket from the ticket machine at Treforest.

 

[bb21]

When were you at Trefforest station? Was the ticket office open?

 

[jam1312]

Perhaps there's been a misunderstanding between the passenger and the RPI. If the passenger told the RPi that he had travelled from Cardiff (which is barriered), and the conversation did not reveal that he had originally travelled in from treforest with a Valid ticket. Then it is understandable that the RPI would think the passenger is lying about starting his journey in Cardiff without a ticket and assuming the passenger is not being honest.

I think the OP needs to tell us exactly what conversation took place with RPI and whether the whole journey along with original ticket was mentioned.

The Witness Statement reads -

At about XXXX hours on 25/05/2012, I was on duty examining travellers tickets at Neath Station when I asked to see the ticket of a passenger who is known to me as Mr XXX.

Mr XXX could not produce a valid ticket when requested. Mr XXX presented a ticket showing a lower fare paid than that due for his intended journey.
I asked Mr XXX where he was traveling from and to?
Mr XXX replied travelling from Treforest to Neath.

I cautioned Mr XXX at XXXX, he said he understood (i didn't understand but when in contact with authority I have a tendency to agree with what there saying - stupid I know!)
Mr XXX was travelling without a valid rail ticket and the fare unpaid is £16.10 (which is why I buy the tickets seperatly because its nearly £5 cheaper).
I asked for the travellers full name and address..........

I said ' Do you agree that by your actions you would have avoided paying the correct fare today? '
He said ' No, I would buy my ticket upon arrival at Neath '

I said ' Why didnt you buy a full journey ticket from Treforest to Neath? '
He said ' Because it's cheaper to buy the tickets singularly rather than together.

I said ' Did you make any effort to find the guard on the train?'
He said ' No i didnt make any effort ' (this is bcaus im used to guards walking up and down the train for tickets and when they didnt I assumed there wasn't one on board.)

I read my notes aloud to Mr XXX whilst allowing him to read my notes and asked him to sign the notes...

I informed Mr XXX that the information collected will be reported to the rail company (ATW) and that he would receive a letter about the matter.

I submitted my report to the Rail company
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When were you at Trefforest station? Was the ticket office open?

It would have been about 6pm to 6.30pm and no the ticket office was not open
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Perhaps there's been a misunderstanding between the passenger and the RPI. If the passenger told the RPi that he had travelled from Cardiff (which is barriered), and the conversation did not reveal that he had originally travelled in from treforest with a Valid ticket. Then it is understandable that the RPI would think the passenger is lying about starting his journey in Cardiff without a ticket and assuming the passenger is not being honest.

I think the OP needs to tell us exactly what conversation took place with RPI and whether the whole journey along with original ticket was mentioned.

The whole journey was mentioned from Treforest to Neath and they photocopied my ticket from Treforest to Cardiff.

 

[bb21]

I have edited out confidential details which might lead to the OP being identified by the TOC.

 

[jam1312]

I have edited out confidential details which might lead to the OP being identified by the TOC.

Should of thought of that myself lol thanks!

 

[SWTCommuter]

Did the revenue inspectors question anyone else in the queue or did they go straight to you?

If they went straight to you, can you think of any reason why they should do so? It sounds like it's a journey that you make regularly so have there been occasions when you have left Neath station without paying if the barrier was unmanned, for example?

 

[Waldgrun]

The Witness Statement reads -

At about XXXX hours on 25/05/2012, I was on duty examining travellers tickets at Neath Station when I asked to see the ticket of a passenger who is known to me as Mr XXX.

When read the first paragraph of the statement, seems to indicate that the O.P. is known to the member of staff, has there been previous problems?
Could this be why the matter has unfolded this way!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I read it as them being provided with a name to aid writing the report, not a personal input.

 

[Crossover]

I read it as them being provided with a name to aid writing the report, not a personal input.

Possibly also written that way as a means of saying this was the name that was given when asked (i.e. people don't always say who they say they are so this avoids someone then saying "it isn't me" - I'm not saying this is the case here, though, you understand )

 

[island]

I would read it as "the name I know this person as is Mr. X", which is true, rather than "this person was Mr. X", which may be harder to prove.

 

[jam1312]

Did the revenue inspectors question anyone else in the queue or did they go straight to you?

If they went straight to you, can you think of any reason why they should do so? It sounds like it's a journey that you make regularly so have there been occasions when you have left Neath station without paying if the barrier was unmanned, for example?

I was there with my girlfriend, and in front of me there was a young woman and when she was asked for her ticket she didn't have one, they then proceeded to ask where she had travelled from (Port Talbot) and they let her through the barriers without settling her fare. They then came over to me and asked for my ticket.......... No other reason i can think of.

I use the train about once a month maybe twice but i normally travel to Swansea where on the occasion i haven't had my ticket i have been able to settle my fare before going through the barriers. this lead me to assume the same was most at most stations that have barriers. This time i happened to be getting picked up in Neath where i've got of a few times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When read the first paragraph of the statement, seems to indicate that the O.P. is known to the member of staff, has there been previous problems?
Could this be why the matter has unfolded this way!

Sorry it was supposed to say " Known to me now as Mr XXXX " as in he had asked my name and i had given him it, before he wrote it down.

 

[island]

The main issue is that the law requires you to pay before travelling if there's the opportunity and doesn't recognise being in a rush etc. as an excuse.

 

[yorkie]

Hi i'm looking for some advice regarding a pending court case.

I've recently been sent a court summons and the information laid out on the letter is That on the 25/05/2012 I was traveling from Treforest to Neath station. I had purchased a ticket from Treforest to Cardiff with the intent on arrival at Cardiff to purchase the Cardiff to Neath ticket - I did it this way because if I purchase a ticket from Treforest to Neath is nearly £5 more expensive than if I buy them separately.

Is there any reason you did not buy all the tickets for your entire journey at the first opportunity?

If the ticket office was not open, then you did right to buy the first ticket from the machine, but what about when the guard came round on the train from Treforest? That would be the first opportunity to buy the full range of tickets.

But perhaps there is a good reason e.g. if the guard's ticket machine was broken and therefore the guard did not come round, in which case providing you were honest at Neath about your entire journey the ticket should then be sold there.

hey ask me where i traveled from, i reply with Cardiff...

But your journey was from Treforest? Is there any reason why you said Cardiff?

Sadly I fear that stating the wrong origin has got you into trouble here (see Gadgetman's post).

Also is there still a possibility i may be able speak to the prosecutor regarding settling the matter out of court?

Yes that is a possibility.

One other thing that's bugging me, I don't understand how it's gone this far considering it is my first EVER 'offence' on the railways and police in general and the fact that I had the means to pay and was very willing to pay my fare at the unpaid fare booth. But yet they complete a witness statement and let me out of the station without paying .

A first offence is still prosecutable, and why did the police get involved?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I agree with the Company's anaysis of the facts available to them that a RoRA S.5 Offence is the obvious Offence to persue against jam1312.
I'll predict that these facts as presented here will succeed in a Prosecution.

However, jam1312's story is interesting (as well as being unusual and based on a misunderstanding - the same fare should be available irrespective of where it was bought). If they genuinely proceeded directly to the Ticket Payments window with no regard for any other factors then it will be hard for the Prosecution to demonstrate intent, as the classic conditions will have been satisfied by passing the opportunity at Treforest but the defence of being acosted while waiting in the queue attemting to buy the correct fare will be a reasonable counter-argument.

The Prosecution will then be relying on something which we don't know, and possibly never will know: Was there any reason to believe that jam1312 walked towards the payment window after having noticed that Revenue Inspectors were present? Or can jam1312 demonstrate that (s)he went to the payment window directly and without any regard for the presence of Revenue Inspectors?
I'm sure that the Inspectors believe that (s)he only queued there after noticing their presence and will say so in a Statement if asked.

Without any further Evidence, it is likely that the Company's claim will succeed unless an eloquent counter-challenge is raised by a Solicitor or Barrister acting for jam1312 - at a disproportionately high cost.

Perhaps a negotiation (by a local Solicitor working in Criminal Law defence) will be the most pragmatic outcome here.

 

[CockneySparrow]

For what my opinion is worth. Could they prove intent to travel well yes because you did make the journey but to prove intent to avoid the payment could be tricky as you say you were stood in the que to purchase a ticket. It might be worth contacting the railway company to see if they will accept an out of court settlement

The RPIs must think he got on the train without a ticket with the intention of not paying, when he got to the destination and realised he wouldn't get through the gates he decided the best option was to buy a ticket in order to avoid the penalty fare which is what most fare dodgers do in that situation, if they can't walk off of the station unchallenged

 

[tony_mac]

But perhaps there is a good reason e.g. if the guard's ticket machine was broken and therefore the guard did not come round, in which case providing you were honest at Neath about your entire journey the ticket should then be sold there.

(S)He did say that the guard didn't come round.

But your journey was from Treforest? Is there any reason why you said Cardiff?

Without putting words into his/her mouth, perhaps because he needed a ticket from Cardiff? I would probably have answered the same!

I'm not quite as pessimistic as DaveNewcastle, but I think he has seen (a lot) more magistrates in action than I have.

I am a little confused about this 'ticket booth' - is this before the barriers or after? Were the barriers in operation?

I'm sure that the Inspectors believe that (s)he only queued there after noticing their presence and will say so in a Statement if asked.

I'm not quite so sure, I think they may have believed that buying a short ticket showed intent to them.

 

[yorkie]

(S)He did say that the guard didn't come round.

I read " I rushed onto the platform and jumped on the train with the intention of a) purchasing my ticket on the train (but there was no guard which came around the train)" to mean that the guard did not come round on the Cardiff - Neath train. Of course it is possible that the OP meant to say that there was no guard on either train.

Without putting words into his/her mouth, perhaps because he needed a ticket from Cardiff? I would probably have answered the same!

It's not the right answer to the question though! The question is asking where you have come from, the answer is Treforest, but a ticket is only required from Cardiff.

Stating your origin is a station that is gated is going to ring alarm bells!

 

[sevenhills]

I was there with my girlfriend.

If that statement is correct, why didnt you say "us"???

"someone waiting at Neath to pick me up".