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Chubbs

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Very simply I travelled from Bromley Cross to Man Vic

Was late for the train, went to buy my ticket @ Vic, was pulled to one side and asked a host of questions, I was then told not rejoin the queue to buy a ticket , but I pushed past the officer and bought a valid ticket

I photocopied all my tickets from that week (all valid) and sent them in, they now want £80 or we go to court and I get a criminal record, at 50 years of age without even a detention to my name I am a criminal.

Should I contest this in court????

Chubbs
 
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CheesyChips

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Very simply I travelled from Bromley Cross to Man Vic

Was late for the train, went to buy my ticket @ Vic, was pulled to one side and asked a host of questions, I was then told not rejoin the queue to buy a ticket , but I pushed past the officer and bought a valid ticket

I photocopied all my tickets from that week (all valid) and sent them in, they now want £80 or we go to court and I get a criminal record, at 50 years of age without even a detention to my name I am a criminal.

Should I contest this in court????

Chubbs

Was the ticket office open when you boarded the train at Bromley Cross? I'm not sure what the ticket machine/office situation is there.

If so, you committed an offence when you boarded and so buying the ticket afterwards at Man Vic is largely irrelevant.

If Man Vic was your first opportunity to buy a ticket, then you may have a case. Although I'm not quite sure what to say about you pushing past the officer. Did you expect that to prompt them to drop the matter? :)
 

bb21

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You "pushed past the officer"? :shock:

Why?
 

ian959

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Should I contest this in court????

Chubbs

That is a choice only you can make of course but I think most people would advise NOT contesting this in court.

Bromley Cross has a ticket office and TVMs according to National Rail Enquiries, so there is prima facie evidence that, irrespective of the time of day, you were able to buy a ticket before boarding the train (always assuming the TVMs accepted your method of payment of course). Failure to do so was an offence. At the time you were asked to show your ticket, you were unable to do so as you did not have one. Nothing to contest - straight forward Bye law prosecution as it is a strict liability offence.
 
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Very simply I travelled from Bromley Cross to Man Vic

Was late for the train, went to buy my ticket @ Vic, was pulled to one side and asked a host of questions, I was then told not rejoin the queue to buy a ticket , but I pushed past the officer and bought a valid ticket

I photocopied all my tickets from that week (all valid) and sent them in, they now want £80 or we go to court and I get a criminal record, at 50 years of age without even a detention to my name I am a criminal.

Should I contest this in court????

Chubbs

There does seem to be a ticket office at your origin at what time did you travel ? If you travelled when the ticket office was opened and didn't attempt to purchase a ticket at either the ticket office or use the ticket vending machine (providing they were working) then the minute you step on the train when there are opportunitys to purchase a ticket beforehand I am sorry to say your bang to rights

When you say you pushed past the member of staff can you clarify exactly what you mean was it a simple you stormed off and walked into them causing them to take a step backwards or did you physically push them out of your way to clear your cway so to speak ???

If I were you I would take this on the chin and pay up asap to keep the matter out of court as a judge would also question your "pushing the member of staff out the way" and could also do you for that if it was deemed unnecessary force was used and you could end up with a fine for that well. This is of course if the inspector noted that in there report and it was provided as evidence should the matter go to court.

I know its not nice but if you pay it now that's the end of the matter and you can pout it down to lessons learnt and remember to buy a ticket in the future before boarding

Just like to add I am not suggesting you assaulted the member of staff in anyway hence the question. It would just help the more knowledgeable members of this forum assist you but on all honesty o would just pay and take it as a lesson learnt

Hope this helps you in some way

I have copoied and pasted the ticket information for your origin from nre to assist others in helping


Ticket buying and collection collapse Ticket buying and collection panel
Ticket Office
Yes
Opening hours
Monday - Friday 06:20 - 13:20
Saturday 07:50 - 14:20
Sunday Closed
Location
Located to the left on the entrance to Manchester bound platform (card only)
Height adjusted ticket office counter
Height adjusted ticket counter is not available at this station
Induction loop
This office has an induction loop
Ticket machines
Yes
Accessible ticket machines
There are no accessible ticket machines at this station
Collection of pre-purchased tickets
Yes, from ticket machine
 

mikeg

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Pushing past the officer was not a smart move. It could be viewed as intent to avoid supplying your details having not paid the correct fare, an offence that could get you a criminal record. Was one of the questions what you would have done had there not been a barrier check? You need to think very carefully about how you answered this. Unless the ticket office was closed and the machine didn't accept your means of payment you have no defence. Is it a byelaw offence or a regulation of railways act offence they are proposing to prosecute you for? The former would be pretty much impossible to defend against if the conditions I have mentioned were met, the latter maybe but the offence would probably have been formed in pushing past the officer. Intent is judged not by what was going on inside your head but by your words and actions. Pushing past the officer is not an acceptable action.
I don't see how you think your age is somehow a defence. Presumably crime is something committed only by young people :roll:

Edit: if they are planning of using the byelaws you won't get a criminal record in court but you don't have a leg to stand on. If they are planning of using the regulation of railways act you would get a criminal record if an offence is found or admitted to in court. £80 penalty fake is a reasonable settlement given the circumstances. I recommend paying it and putting it down to experience.
 
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trentside

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Pay the £80 and consider yourself lucky, especially if "pushing past" the RPO involved physical contact. If it did, you're lucky it's not an assault charge.
 

Chubbs

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Guys lets just clarify "pushing past "

I was prevented from buying my ticket at Man Victoria as i was asked to step out of the Que at the ticket desk , which is there for just these circumstances , when he had finished the rail employee instructed me NOT to buy a ticket , i was determined to do so , as was my original intention , so walked away from his holding arm and purchased,

This to me is just a cheap snide shot at extorting £80 form travelers


Thoughts ??
 

bb21

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Thoughts ??

Buying the ticket after you were challenged cannot change the fact that you were unable to deliver a valid ticket for inspection when requested.
 

trentside

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This to me is just a cheap snide shot at extorting £80 form travelers

Thoughts ??

These £80 settlements are not without controversy.

Regardless, you don't have a lot of choice in the matter. If you go to court, you will lose a byelaw prosecution regardless of how aggrieved you feel. If there were facilities to buy at ticket at Bromley Cross then you should have done so before you boarded the train - being late isn't an excuse I'm afraid. All you've done by purchasing a ticket at Manchester Victoria is cost yourself more, as you'd already travelled without a ticket and (likely) passed an opportunity to purchase one at your origin station.

This probably isn't what you want to hear from us, but I'm afraid it's the best advice we can give.
 

najaB

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I was prevented from buying my ticket at Man Victoria as i was asked to step out of the Que at the ticket desk , which is there for just these circumstances...
The ticket desk is there for use by people who had no opportunity to buy a ticket before arriving, not for people who couldn't be bothered to buy one.
This to me is just a cheap snide shot at extorting £80 form travelers

Thoughts ??
You are more than welcome to turn down this offer and proceed to court.
 

Phil.

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Guys lets just clarify "pushing past "

I was prevented from buying my ticket at Man Victoria as i was asked to step out of the Que at the ticket desk , which is there for just these circumstances , when he had finished the rail employee instructed me NOT to buy a ticket , i was determined to do so , as was my original intention , so walked away from his holding arm and purchased,

This to me is just a cheap snide shot at extorting £80 form travelers


Thoughts ??

Unfortunately nowadays a law abiding person boarding a train with full intent to pay is regarded as a criminal and potential prey for someone who cannot differentiate between a person intending and willing to pay and someone who is trying to avoid payment. Someone will be along in a moment and start quoting relevant byelaws and the Regulation of Railways act from the Victorian era but it won't help your case or excuse poor decisions.
 

crehld

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I would advise paying up as it seems you did bypass an opportunity to pay for your ticket at your origin. On that basis, if you were to take it to court you would in all likelihood be found guilty. The £80 settlement being extended to you is an offer to avoid the court appearance and the likely conviction. My advice is to pay it and recognize the necessity to always purchase your ticket before boarding the train where facilities exist.

I agree there is much to dislike about Northern's approach to revenue protection, including the way inspectors pounce on passengers in a queue seeking to actively buy a ticket for their already completed journey. If their approach upsets you feel free to make a complaint about this, but before doing so I would ensure you have settled the matter of ticketless travel first.
 

Harlesden

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You pushed past the officer? Lack of respect for authority. Things don't look good. I don't see anything to "contest". "Late for your train" isd an excuse used dozens of times every day all over the country. Lateness is entirely down to the passenger and nothing to do with the legal requirement to purchase a ticket prior to travel
 

Llanigraham

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Thoughts ??

You are banged to rights!
You didn't purchase your ticket before you traveled, and that is illegal. Therefore you are the one in the wrong.

Pay the £80 and don't do it again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Unfortunately nowadays a law abiding person boarding a train with full intent to pay is regarded as a criminal and potential prey for someone who cannot differentiate between a person intending and willing to pay and someone who is trying to avoid payment. Someone will be along in a moment and start quoting relevant byelaws and the Regulation of Railways act from the Victorian era but it won't help your case or excuse poor decisions.

But this person was not "law abiding" as they didn't purchase their ticket before their journey, when there was an opportunity to do so.

Please do not give bad advice; it does not help the OP.
 

455driver

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You "pushed past the officer"? :shock:

Why?
I could answer the 'why' but don't want any more PMs from MODs.;)

But in my book that would be assault on a member of staff and I hope they are doing him for that as well as failure to purchase a ticket when facilities were available.

OP, my advice is to please go to Court (you will lose) where you will find out exactly how expensive it can be when you can't be bothered to buy a ticket when you could and should have, if you could let us know where and when you are in Court it would be much appreciated ;) and being 50 means you should know better than to 'push past' somebody! How would you like it if somebody pushed past you because they felt above the way they were being treated, which in your case was a fare dodger!
 
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crehld

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Pushing past the inspector is actually not that relevant to the OP's situation. What matters is that they were travelling without a ticket after having had an opportunity to purchase one. The OP and those offering advice would do best to focus on this relevant fact.

I am not condoning pushing past of course, merely highlighting its not immediately relevant here.
 

bb21

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If it were indeed pushing then i think it could end up being relevant depending on how the case goes, but given that there now appears to be no pushing involved, it is less relevant.
 

a_c_skinner

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Can I ask (for personal interest, I am paranoid about travelling without a ticket) what would have been the situation if the OP had approached the guard on the train or approached the staff at Manchester Victoria immediately asking to buy a ticket?

Andrew
 

najaB

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Can I ask (for personal interest, I am paranoid about travelling without a ticket) what would have been the situation if the OP had approached the guard on the train or approached the staff at Manchester Victoria immediately asking to buy a ticket?
Approaching the Guard on the train: almost certainly would have been sold a ticket.

Approaching the staff on arrival: majority of the time, would have been sold a ticket.
 

scrapy

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Unfortunately nowadays a law abiding person boarding a train with full intent to pay is regarded as a criminal and potential prey for someone who cannot differentiate between a person intending and willing to pay and someone who is trying to avoid payment. Someone will be along in a moment and start quoting relevant byelaws and the Regulation of Railways act from the Victorian era but it won't help your case or excuse poor decisions.

It's these law abiding people who cost the railway a lot more in lost revenue than people who try to avoid payment. They only pay if they are actually stopped for a ticket. If they aren't stopped they see it as the railways fault for not charging them even when the railway provided ticketing facilities at their departure point.
 

Chubbs

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OK

The point has been made to varying degrees and i will pay the £80 fine.

KR
Chubbs
 
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randyrippley

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you were instructed NOT to purchase a ticket.
What else were you told at that point? Were you told that you were to be prosecuted? Were you offered a fixed penalty fine? Had the inspector finished discussing things with you?
There's a lot missing from your story which is essential to properly understanding what happened. Maybe deliberately missing?
It could be that you have precipitated something that wasn't going to happen by the act of buying the ticket: by insisting on the after-the-event purchase you brought attention to something that was going to be ignored.
 
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