Court Summons next month

[20052534]

Then it doesn't sound like a UPFN was issued.

We return then to the puzzling fact that you say you received no correspondence from either CrossCountry or TIL despite their having your correct postal address.

So that means it must have been an MG11 then?

I maintain that I did not receive any correspondence from either company - yet TIL's letters were received to the address I gave, and addressed to myself!

Could this mean anything good? At all...?

 

[furlong]

I'll just interject that some forum members here have seen situations where the CrossCountry prosecutions process has gone wrong - occasionally very seriously wrong - so it would always be wise to check independently all the paperwork and not to be afraid to challenge them if something doesn't seem right.

 

[najaB]

Could this mean anything good at all...

If they didn't write to you requesting payment, having said that they would, and you can also provide evidence that you attempted to pay the fare but your attempts were rejected it does make a successful prosecution less likely.

However, before you get too excited keep in mind that, as I noted above, there is a difference between "not received" and "received but not opened". They may have proof of postage, it might worth asking them to confirm what date the letter(s) were posted.

 

[20052534]

If they didn't write to you requesting payment, having said that they would, and you can also provide evidence that you attempted to pay the fare but your attempts were rejected it does make a successful prosecution less likely.

Would my emails stating that, that is all I want to do (pay the ticket/fine - whatever it is) be enough? As I am unable to get records of calls, but in my emails I did say which numbers I have called and not gotten anywhere.

However, before you get too excited keep in mind that, as I noted above, there is a difference between "not received" and "received but not opened". They may have proof of postage, it might worth asking them to confirm what date the letter(s) were posted.

Would their proof have to come from a 'tracked postage'?

I'll just interject that some forum members here have seen situations where the CrossCountry prosecutions process has gone wrong - occasionally very seriously wrong - so it would always be wise to check independently all the paperwork and not to be afraid to challenge them if something doesn't seem right.

But am I right in saying that they don't have to send me anything? That they can just immediately pass it over to TIL? But then the fact that the inspector told me I would receive something from CrossCountry themselves counter that? He also says this in his witness statement...

 

[najaB]

Would my emails stating that, that is all I want to do (pay the ticket/fine - whatever it is) be enough? As I am unable to get records of calls, but in my emails I did say which numbers I have called and not gotten anywhere.

It's impossible to say what would be 'enough', but the more evidence you have the better it is for your case.

Would their proof have to come from a 'tracked postage'?

Not necessarily. They could have a Royal Mail certificate of postage.

 

[20052534]

Not necessarily. They could have a Royal Mail certificate of postage.

But what would their proof of me actually receiving them be? What would happen if they did send them, but they got lost in the post?

 

[furlong]

But am I right in saying that they don't have to send me anything? That they can just immediately pass it over to TIL? But then the fact that the inspector told me I would receive something from CrossCountry themselves counter that? He also says this in his witness statement...

TIL is acting as an agent of CrossCountry - in theory, you can consider them as one and the same. One of the issues we've seen in the past seemed to result from relevant information not receiving an appropriate and timely level of review.

 

[20052534]

TIL is acting as an agent of CrossCountry - in theory, you can consider them as one and the same. One of the issues we've seen in the past seemed to result from relevant information not receiving an appropriate and timely level of review.

Can you expand on that please... I am aware that once CrossCountry have passed the matter over to TIL that they act on behalf of XC - The next part you speak of I am struggling to understand - sorry

 

[Llanigraham]

But what would their proof of me actually receiving them be? What would happen if they did send them, but they got lost in the post?

If they have "proof of posting" then a Court will accept that. If you say you did not receive them then you have to take that up with the Post Office.
Have you asked them for all these details?

 

[20052534]

If they have "proof of posting" then a Court will accept that. If you say you did not receive them then you have to take that up with the Post Office.
Have you asked them for all these details?

Not as of yet, this is new news for me... Would this be worth suggesting to TIL before sending off the Plea form and financial circumstances to the Cheltenham Magistrates Court?

If they do have proof of posting, then what should I do in terms of 'taking it up with the Post Office'?

 

[najaB]

If they do have proof of posting, then what should I do in terms of 'taking it up with the Post Office'?

Nothing that would really be helpful for your case.

 

[20052534]

Is it just me though as the OP that is seriously thinking that something, somewhere along the lines, has gone seriously wrong somewhere? I mean besides me not getting off at Cheltenham when I was given the opportunity. But then what would have stopped me from getting off at Cheltenham and just getting a cheap ticket to Bristol anyways...

On this Zero-fare (looks like a normal rail ticket) ticket that I was given it says on the top of it, says "valid only with ticket MG.11" - yesterday was the first I had known about what an MG11 is

 

[najaB]

Is it just me though as the OP that is seriously thinking that something, somewhere along the lines, has gone seriously wrong somewhere? I mean besides me not getting off at Cheltenham when I was given the opportunity. But then what would have stopped me from getting off at Cheltenham and just getting a cheap ticket to Bristol anyways...

Nothing. You were given the benefit of the doubt initially: the Guard appears to have believed that you wanted to go to Sheffield and let you off when he could have written you up straight away.

It was your asking for a ticket to Bristol that made it look that little bit more suspicious and resulted in the MG11 being filled in.

 

[20052534]

It was your asking for a ticket to Bristol that made it look that little bit more suspicious and resulted in the MG11 being filled in.

I completely understand this - just as I've said to TIL in each letter I have written, I've also said that I would pay any costs & admin fees and anything else they see fit... But they just won't budge for an out of court settlement. I am tempted to write one more letter and send it to both TIL & XC apologising etc.

Is there anything that I could write in the letter that would help?

I am a student in my final year and hope to become a teacher... I work in the US over the summer for around 3/4 months which requires a visa (that I already have) and my girlfriend lives there!

This is my first offence, of anything!

Can anyone please offer me any advice in preparation for the court case? Direct message me - Skype - anything... I can show all the correspondence I have. I am in desperate need of something.

S.5 . 3. (b) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 states 'knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond the distance paid for without previously paying additional fare for the added distance, and with intent to avoid payment'.

But at no point have I said that I would not pay it, I just could not afford to at that time. Now, in the most recent letter received from TIL they state 'once the report was received by XC, the decision was made to transfer the case to prosecution agents. And XC have no obligation to offer the payment of the fare at a later stage when there were full pre-purchase facilities for you to use before travel' But if my intention was to depart at Sheffield and then could not afford my way back, what else would I have done?

Edit: Then this 'report' must have gone through the XC as in 'Internal Investigation' which was then put forward for prosecution, but then the policy of XC for prosecution must come into place; XC Prosecution Policy 8.3 (e) exceptional circumstances (student, 21 years of age, wants to be a teacher, could ruin my life, plans, relationship etc), warning letter, first offence, all costs offered, verification letter received?.

Then XC Prosecution Policy 10 (a,b,c & d) was met. 11 - administrative disposal - for which all the criteria they are asking for was met and offered. 12, caution?

 

[najaB]

But at no point have I said that I would not pay it, I just could not afford to at that time.

The problem is that payment is due before travel, not afterwards. And it is difficult to escape the conclusion that it was your intention to travel from Leeds to Bristol - in which case you would have had opportunity to purchase at Leeds.

 

[20052534]

The problem is that payment is due before travel, not afterwards. And it is difficult to escape the conclusion that it was your intention to travel from Leeds to Bristol - in which case you would have had opportunity to purchase at Leeds.

But the journey I intended to make was to Sheffield, which a ticket was purchased for. Then falling asleep. If I had gotten of at Cheltenham as he suggested and got the train back to Sheffield which he wrote down the times for, would have been too expensive for me to afford - how would I have gotten back then?

 

[najaB]

But the journey I intended to make was to Sheffield, which a ticket was purchased for. Then falling asleep. If I had gotten of at Cheltenham as he suggested and got the train back to Sheffield which he wrote down the times for, would have been too expensive for me to afford - how would I have gotten back then?

The problem is that a common method of fare evasion is buying a ticket that covers start of your journey and another that covers the end - leaving the middle unpaid for.

I am not suggesting that was your intention, but it's easy to see why someone would come to that conclusion.

Do you have anything that supports your story that you asked for a ticket to Bristol solely because you couldn't afford to return to Sheffield - e.g. record of a call to the friend in Bath, would they be able to provide a statement to support your story?

 

[20052534]

Do you have anything that supports your story that you asked for a ticket to Bristol solely because you couldn't afford to return to Sheffield - e.g. record of a call to the friend in Bath, would they be able to provide a statement to support your story?

Just what the ticket inspector said in his witness statement 'I spoke with Mr XXXXXX XXXXXX and he explained that the fares were too expensive to travel back to Sheffield and that he was going to ask a uni mate from Bristol to give him a lift home'.

What I actually said to him though was "I can't afford to get back to Sheffield and that I have a friend in Bath who would be willing to take me back to Sheffield".

 

[najaB]

Just what the ticket inspector said in his witness statement 'I spoke with Mr XXXXXX XXXXXX and he explained that the fares were too expensive to travel back to Sheffield and that he was going to ask a uni mate from Bristol to give him a lift home'.

What I actually said to him though was "I can't afford to get back to Sheffield and that I have a friend in Bath who would be willing to take me back to Sheffield".

The difference between the two statements is trivial. Would the friend be able to provide a statement and/or willing to attend the hearing to confirm this wasn't a pre-planned trip?

 

[20052534]

The difference between the two statements is trivial. Would the friend be able to provide a statement and/or willing to attend the hearing to confirm this wasn't a pre-planned trip?

My friend would be able to provide a statement, but the time of the hearing collides with work. Would he have to appear in court with me or could he give a written statement?

It would also be difficult for the friend I was supposed to meet in Sheffield to appear in court also. He too is in his final year of study and approaching a busy time.

 

[najaB]

My friend would be able to provide a statement, but the time of the hearing collides with work. Would he have to appear in court with me or could he give a written statement?

It would also be difficult for the friend I was supposed to meet in Sheffield to appear in court also. He too is in his final year of study and approaching a busy time.

Written statements would be useful for achieving a settlement, but if you are intending to plead not guilty and present your case in Court then they would need to be available to be questioned.

 

[20052534]

Written statements would be useful for achieving a settlement, but if you are intending to plead not guilty and present your case in Court then they would need to be available to be questioned.

So if I can get my friend(s) to write up a statement - they sign it - scan it and send it over to me, then I send them over to TIL along with a final letter of apology and to settle out of court this may help?

Given the time between now and the court hearing though (11th April) is difficult! So in the meantime, any advice on sending the plea and financial circumstances form?

 

[najaB]

So if I can get my friend(s) to write up a statement - they sign it - scan it and send it over to me, then I send them over to TIL along with a final letter of apology and to settle out of court this may help?

Yes, that would be a productive step.

Given the time between now and the court hearing though (11th April) is difficult! So in the meantime, any advice on sending the plea and financial circumstances form?

It depends on if you intend pleading guilty or not guilty. A guilty plea would reduce the potential fine, but it is a recordable offence so would be on any DBS checks for 12 months. I strongly advise you to get professional legal advice if you are considering pleading not guilty.

 

[20052534]

A guilty plea would reduce the potential fine, but it is a recordable offence so would be on any DBS checks for 12 months.

You're certain it is 12 months? Would this affect me going to the US in May?

I already have my visa, and if I plead not guilty will the hearing date be changed? I will have to provide dates which I am not available to be in court which would be from May - September.

 

[najaB]

You're certain it is 12 months?

Yes, it is spent after twelve months.

Would this affect me going to the US in May?

I already have my visa,and if I plead not guilty will the hearing date be changed? I will have to provide dates which I am not available to be in court which would be from May - September.

If you plead guilty there won't be a hearing at all.

 

[6Gman]

Can anyone please offer me any advice in preparation for the court case? Direct message me - Skype - anything... I can show all the correspondence I have. I am in desperate need of something.

S.5 . 3. (b) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 states 'knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond the distance paid for without previously paying additional fare for the added distance, and with intent to avoid payment'.

But at no point have I said that I would not pay it, I just could not afford to at that time. Now, in the most recent letter received from TIL they state 'once the report was received by XC, the decision was made to transfer the case to prosecution agents. And XC have no obligation to offer the payment of the fare at a later stage when there were full pre-purchase facilities for you to use before travel' But if my intention was to depart at Sheffield and then could not afford my way back, what else would I have done?

Edit: Then this 'report' must have gone through the XC as in 'Internal Investigation' which was then put forward for prosecution, but then the policy of XC for prosecution must come into place; XC Prosecution Policy 8.3 (e) exceptional circumstances (student, 21 years of age, wants to be a teacher, could ruin my life, plans, relationship etc), warning letter, first offence, all costs offered, verification letter received?.

Then XC Prosecution Policy 10 (a,b,c & d) was met. 11 - administrative disposal - for which all the criteria they are asking for was met and offered. 12, caution?

DELETE! Did you receive the "Verification Letter" referred to in the Prosecution Policy? DELETE!

Sorry, rereading the OP I realise that a Verification Letter was indeed received.

 

[najaB]

...but then the policy of XC for prosecution must come into place; XC Prosecution Policy 8.3 (e) exceptional circumstances (student, 21 years of age, wants to be a teacher, could ruin my life, plans, relationship etc), warning letter, first offence, all costs offered, verification letter received?.

With the possible exception of the verification letter, none of those are either 'exceptional' or 'unusual'.

 

[6Gman]

With the possible exception of the verification letter, none of those are either 'exceptional' or 'unusual'.

You beat me to it! I was going to ask whether as a nearly 60 non-student whose job (and relationship!) prospects would be unaffected I should be prosecuted under the same circumstances?

It set me wondering what would/ should be regarded as "exceptional circumstances". Presumably things like sudden illness, assisting with an incident etc.

 

[island]

You're certain it is 12 months? Would this affect me going to the US in May?

I already have my visa, and if I plead not guilty will the hearing date be changed? I will have to provide dates which I am not available to be in court which would be from May - September.

If you are convicted of an offence you are no longer eligible to use the Visa Waiver Program, but if you have a visa then its terms apply. The US Embassy could advise.

What CrossCountry's internal policy may or may not be is neither here nor there. Even if it is the case that CrossCountry has failed to apply its internal policy, that does not give you a defence to a prosecution nor any other remedy as against CrossCountry.

There are still several unanswered questions. What evidence can you provide that you have made bona-fide efforts to actively pay the full fare due for your journey? Sitting back and waiting for something to happen does not count.

Please bear in mind that to a dispassionate outsider, what you appear to have done is fallen asleep for a conveniently long portion of a journey for which you didn't have a ticket, and sought to pay a fare less than the full fare for the journey actually made.

 

[6Gman]

I assume the friend that you intended to meet in Sheffield must have been surprised when you didn’t arrive. Did that person not then ring you to ask where you were? I assume not, since you say you remained asleep. Some might think that odd, perhaps?

I don't think we have had an answer to this yet have we?

S.5 . 3. (b) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 states 'knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond the distance paid for without previously paying additional fare for the added distance, and with intent to avoid payment'.

But at no point have I said that I would not pay it, I just could not afford to at that time.

I have highlighted what appear - to me - to be the key elements here.

The 1889 Act requires you to pay the extra fare "previously" i.e. before extending your journey, i.e. at Sheffield NOT when approached by the RPI south of Birmingham!

However, for a conviction under the 1889 Act they need to prove (beyond reasonable doubt) an intent to avoid payment. They will no doubt point to your having travelled a considerable distance, including stops at several intermediate stations and your sudden decision to head for Bristol rather than back to Sheffield, and your friend's apparent unconcern when you didn't arrive in Sheffield.

You will point to ... ?

Your willingness to pay after the event is irrelevant.