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Court Summons next month

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20052534

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If you plead guilty there won't be a hearing at all.

But if I plead NOT guilty. Will the hearing date be changed?

If you are convicted of an offence you are no longer eligible to use the Visa Waiver Program, but if you have a visa then its terms apply. The US Embassy could advise.

I have an exchange visitor visa...
 
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20052534

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There are still several unanswered questions. What evidence can you provide that you have made bona-fide efforts to actively pay the full fare due for your journey? Sitting back and waiting for something to happen does not count.

If you read the other posts, you will have seen that I have stated numerous times that I phoned XC, numerous times, I phoned IRCAS, numerous times, getting passed back and forth, numerous times. All I have done since the day it happened is try to pay for the full fare due! I did not receive this verification letter informing me of what steps I had to take etc. I took matters into my own hands and called them before any company that should have contacted me had the chance to... so saying that I've sat back waiting for something to happen is not really fare at all!!!

I have emails that have been sent to XC telling them that I had called etc tried to make any payment needed but was unsuccessful, on numerous occasions. I wouldn't email them saying I've tried to call them if I hadn't actually done so...
 

najaB

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I have emails that have been sent to XC telling them that I had called etc tried to make any payment needed but was unsuccessful, on numerous occasions. I wouldn't email them saying I've tried to call them if I hadn't actually done so...
Did you receive replies to those emails?
 

najaB

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Yes, TIL have them, I also sent them to XC and the Court.
So, to summarise my understanding of the whole saga:
  1. You left Leeds with a ticket to Sheffield.
  2. You overslept on the train and awoke after the train had departed Birmingham. Your friend who you were going to meet at Sheffield tried to call you and you have a record of that call. The friend is also willing to appear in court to confirm your story.
  3. The guard told you to leave the train at Cheltenham and get a train back to Sheffield. He gave you a zero-fare ticket ("to pass through the barriers").
  4. You realised you couldn't afford a train back to Sheffield, so contacted a friend in Bath to ask if he could meet you. The friend agreed to meet you at Bristol and is willing to appear in court to confirm your story.
  5. You explained the situation to the guard and asked for a ticket from Cheltenham to Bristol.
  6. At this point the guard filled in a MG11 and told you that CrossCountry would be in touch for more information.
  7. You 'discovered' that you did have the money after all.
  8. You didn't hear from CrossCountry so called and emailed them to find out what was happening and to pay the fare due. You have records of the calls and emails, and replies from CrossCountry.
  9. Despite contacting both CrossCountry and later TIL you were unable to pay the fare because they didn't have a 'reference number' for your case.
Is that correct?

If so:

2) It's still difficult to accept that you managed to sleep through five station stops. Was there any particular reason other than 'not sleeping the night before'?

3) Why would you need to pass through the barriers, are you sure that is what the guard said?

4) How exactly did you realise you couldn't afford the ticket back to Sheffield?

6) Exactly what documentation did you have at this point? Was it just the zero-fare ticket?

7) It is difficult to get past the point that you didn't have any money until after the guard reported you. Is there a reasonable explanation for the miraculous appearance of cash that was previously absent?

9) Do your email replies from CrossCountry/TIL confirm that they were unable to find the reference number and hence unable to accept payment?
 

6Gman

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Read post 11.

Ah - sorry, missed that. He did phone, but it didn't wake you. You must be a heavy sleeper.

Hi,

On 15th October 2015, I received a letter from Transport Investigations Limited (TIL) asking me to provide “any mitigation” and “written representations” because TIL’s Prosecutions Team was considering whether a Summons should be issued.

I was given 21 days to do this and I responded on 24th October.

Surely this was your verification letter? They asked you for your side of the story; you gave it; they decided to prosecute.

End of matter surely?

If you read the other posts, you will have seen that I have stated numerous times that I phoned XC, numerous times, I phoned IRCAS, numerous times, getting passed back and forth, numerous times. All I have done since the day it happened is try to pay for the full fare due! I did not receive this verification letter informing me of what steps I had to take etc. I took matters into my own hands and called them before any company that should have contacted me had the chance to... so saying that I've sat back waiting for something to happen is not really fare at all!!!

I have emails that have been sent to XC telling them that I had called etc tried to make any payment needed but was unsuccessful, on numerous occasions. I wouldn't email them saying I've tried to call them if I hadn't actually done so...

I think you did based on other postings you've made.

And XC don't want you to pay the fare - they want to prosecute you! (If I'm understanding the situation.)
 

snail

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You're certain it is 12 months? Would this affect me going to the US in May?
You need to read up on US immigration requirements. Having a spent conviction in the UK may still count in the US. It's their law you need to comply with.
 

20052534

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So, to summarise my understanding of the whole saga:
  1. You left Leeds with a ticket to Sheffield.
  2. You overslept on the train and awoke after the train had departed Birmingham.

  1. Only due to the ticket inspector waking me, had he not I would have probably slept further.

    Your friend who you were going to meet at Sheffield tried to call you and you have a record of that call.
    I do not have a record of the call as my phone company cannot provide records beyond either 30 days or 3 months because they simply do not keep them... I am unsure as to which but either way it is beyond 3 months anyway. I do have a statement from him though.

    The friend agreed to meet you at Bristol and is willing to appear in court to confirm your story.
    Potentially not due to work demand but I can get a statement.

    You 'discovered' that you did have the money after all.
    I had the money anyways, but I could not afford to pay it due to reasons mentioned (student, loan not gone in yet).

    You have records of the calls and emails, and replies from CrossCountry.[*]Despite contacting both CrossCountry and later TIL you were unable to pay the fare because they didn't have a 'reference number' for your case.

    As mentioned with my phone provider not having the records of calls, but I do have the emails, replies etc. I contacted XC & IRCAS and was asked for a reference number to pay for what I and XC believed to be an UPFN.

    If so:

    2) It's still difficult to accept that you managed to sleep through five station stops. Was there any particular reason other than 'not sleeping the night before'?

    Just as mentioned, I did not sleep at all the night/morning before my journey and it was an early train (7am).

    3) Why would you need to pass through the barriers, are you sure that is what the guard said?
    The Zero-Fare was issued to allow me to show it to the guards at the barriers in Bristol. This is what he said.

    4) How exactly did you realise you couldn't afford the ticket back to Sheffield?
    By checking on my phone on the trainline app. When trying to purchase the ticket to Bristol the internet was not working in the area.


    6) Exactly what documentation did you have at this point? Was it just the zero-fare ticket?
    Correct.

    7) It is difficult to get past the point that you didn't have any money until after the guard reported you. Is there a reasonable explanation for the miraculous appearance of cash that was previously absent?
    I had enough to pay for it, but I personally could not afford it. When thinking about what he said, about the court if I did not pay it etc, I contemplated what was more worth while, pay for the ticket and sell some stuff to gain money or something, or a criminal record.

    9) Do your email replies from CrossCountry/TIL confirm that they were unable to find the reference number and hence unable to accept payment?
    They do not say this specifically, however "Thank you for your phone call earlier this afternoon regarding the Unpaid Fares Notice that you were issued on board our service today".
 

najaB

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I had the money anyways, but I could not afford to pay it due to reasons mentioned (student, loan not gone in yet).
To be honest, I think this is what has gotten you into bother rather than anything else, and I was hoping someone else picked up on it. If you strip everything else out of the picture, what happened was:

Guard: You need to buy a ticket.
You: I don't have the money for it.
Guard: Then I'll have to report you.
You: Actually, I do have the money.

This is sufficient for a RoRA prosecution and I can understand why CrossCountry are reluctant to settle.
 

20052534

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Surely this was your verification letter? They asked you for your side of the story; you gave it; they decided to prosecute.

End of matter surely?

I was under the impression that XC would contact me themselves informing me of what would happen next, as told by the ticket inspector. I thought that this would have been the verification letter, but I didn't get a letter from them. Instead I got a letter from TIL, and this was the first I had personally had any correspondence from anyone, without me having to call anyone. This letter was stated how a prosecution could be made.
 

DaveNewcastle

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I thought that because its not 'Strict liability' that it would not mean a criminal record? or so ive read.
That is incorrect.
Whether or not a Conviction leads to an entry on the Criminal Records computer that might be disclosed during a DBS check depends on whether the offence is listed in National Police Records (Recordable Offences) (Amendment) Regulations 2005 as amended, or is a caution, warning or conviction for and offence which is capable of a custodial sentence, or is an offence listed in the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE) Code D.
The Regulation of Railways Act Section 5 is listed there.

. . . . the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 states 'knowingly and wilfully proceeds by train beyond the distance paid for without previously paying additional fare for the added distance, and with intent to avoid payment'.

But at no point have I said that I would not pay it, I just could not afford to at that time.
You've got the crucial point just there! The offence is travelling without having peviously paid your fare. The offence has been committed. But it seems to me, that in your desperation to avoid a prosecution, that you're missing this simple fact. (I'm hopeful that I'm wrong in this perception of you).

Perhaps you do have a basis for some successful defence - sadly, what you have written on here has not persuaded me of this; perhaps there has been some failure by Cross Country in preparing the file of Evidence against you. But that is not a defence. It might, if anything substantial really is missing or wrong, then it might frustrate the prosecution, and Cross Country do have an inconsistent standard of pre-trail admin.
. . . then put forward for prosecution, but then the policy of XC for prosecution must come into place;
I won't comment on the merits or failings in that policy and its practice, but it has no bearing on whether or not their prosecution against you will succeed or not. If this goes to a contested hearing in Court, then the two things that will be considered in decising guilt or innocence are: 1) the Law (the statute and
its case law), and 2) the Evidence of facts which relate to that Law (the prosecution's and the defendant's).
. . . . and if I plead not guilty will the hearing date be changed? I will have to provide dates which I am not available to be in court which would be from May - September.
Written statements would be useful for achieving a settlement, but if you are intending to plead not guilty and present your case in Court then they would need to be available to be questioned.
Many Courts will hear a long list of fare evasion cases in the one sitting, and if any of them plea 'not guilty', then they simply set another date for the contested hearing by asking both parties for their availability and the availability of the Witnesses from both sides that are to be called. Sometimes, a Court will have made time available for the contested hearing at its first hearing - so you need to be discussing this with the Court's Clerk's Office to be sure what you need to do for the date of the first hearing. Going to Court (if that is really what all this is leading to) benefits from proper case management, and both parties should be discussing their evidence and which Witnesses really need to be present for oral Evidence and Cross-Examination.

But even if you are going to be given another date for the full hearing, you do need to be ready with that list of Witnesses from both side who you require to be present (as opposed to Witnesses whose Witness Statements will be accepted without cross-examination).

I've not seen much prospect of success in anything you've written on here, but I'm sure you have impressive grounds for mitigation in Sentencing. And I can't see any reason not to negotiate an alternative disposal of the offence - but that requires you to enter into a constructive and concilliatory negotiation with the Company's prosecutor.
 
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20052534

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This is sufficient for a RoRA prosecution and I can understand why CrossCountry are reluctant to settle.

But what you have quoted there is not what I said, I didn't say that I didn't have the money, I said that I could not afford that sum, at that time.

I thought that might have meant something different :(
 

GadgetMan

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If the Ticket Inspector wanted you to pay the fare later then he would have issued an Unpaid Fares Notice which gives you 28 days to make the payment to Ircas. The fact that he gave you a Zero Fare ticket and put a report in suggests he suspected you of fare dodging to Bristol.

This is why you weren't able to pay the fare and were passed around between XC and Ircas



As TIL have refused to settle out of court, I would recommend you opt to attend court personally. Turn up early and ask the court clerk to point the XC prosecutor out when he/she arrives. Speak to the prosecutor before entering court as that will now be your best chance of settling out of court. From experience, out of 30-35 cases only 2 or 3 defendants actually attend court, most either plead by post or ignore the summons altogether and are found Guilty in their absence....which means TIL/XC will get a pretty decent set of results on the day anyway so settling 1 or 2 outside of court for a few £s won't be seen as too big a deal.

At worst you'll end up in court and can if you choose then plead guilty.
 

najaB

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But what you have quoted there is not what I said, I didn't say that I didn't have the money, I said that I could not afford that sum, at that time.

I thought that might have meant something different :(
That isn't what you said earlier:
I could not afford a ticket from Cheltenham back to Sheffield.

I then realised that, unusually, I had some cash with me. I found the ticket inspector there and then and attempted to pay for the ticket. He wouldn’t allow me to do so.
 
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20052534

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Many Courts will hear a long list of fare evasion cases in the one sitting, and if any of them plea 'not guilty', then another date is set for the contested hearing when both parties will be asked for thier availability and the availability of the Witnesses that are to be called. Sometimes, a Court will have made time available for the contested hearing at its first hearing - you need to be discussing this with the Court's Clerk's Office to be sure what you need to do for the date of the first hearing.
Does this mean that I have to attend the hearing and plead not guilty, or will my written plea of NOT guilty do this for me, so that I would not have to attend the hearing personally?

With regard to the Clerk, can I just call Cheltenham Magistrates and ask them?

But even if you are going to be given another date for the full hearing, you do need to be ready with the list of Witnesses from both side who you require to be present (as opposed to Witnesses whose Witness Statements will be accepted without cross-examination).
Does the witnesses that I require have to be written on the Plea form also?

but that requires you to enter into a constructive and concilliatory negotiation with the Company's prosecutor.
I am unsure as to what you mean here... I am not very knowledgeable with these phrases or sayings - sorry!
 

DaveNewcastle

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I hesitate to quote myself, but in case my point hasn't been fully grasped, I will repeat one point which I think is central to your understanding of how best to proceed:
But what you have quoted there is not what I said, I didn't say that I didn't have the money, I said that I could not afford that sum, at that time.

I thought that might have meant something different :(
The offence is travelling without having peviously paid your fare. The offence has been committed. But it seems to me, that in your desperation to avoid a prosecution, that you're missing this simple fact.
It seems you are still missing this crucial point.

I hope this helps.
 

najaB

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And I can't see any reason not to negotiate an alternative disposal of the offence - but that requires you to enter into a constructive and concilliatory negotiation with the Company's prosecutor.
I am unsure as to what you mean here... I am not very knowledgeable with these phrases or sayings - sorry!
Basically he is saying the ball is in their court, so you need to grovel a bit and convince them that it's better all around to settle rather than take this through the courts.
----New post below----
The Zero-Fare was issued to allow me to show it to the guards at the barriers in Bristol. This is what he said.
But according to your initial post he issued you the zero-fare ticket before Bristol even entered the picture.
 
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20052534

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This is why you weren't able to pay the fare and were passed around between XC and Ircas.
But why would XC tell me after explaining the who situation and incident to them that it was an UPFN I was issued... at this time I had no idea what an UPFN looked like or what an MG11 was or what a Zero-Fare ticket was... I described what I had in my hand and they told me UPFN.



As TIL have refused to settle out of court, I would recommend you opt to attend court personally. Turn up early and ask the court clerk to point the XC prosecutor out when he/she arrives. Speak to the prosecutor before entering court as that will now be your best chance of settling out of court.
At worst you'll end up in court and can if you choose then plead guilty.
Would this be attending the hearing scheduled for 11th April? So this means that the XC prosecutor (presuming you mean someone from TIL) would be there at the hearing?
 

ainsworth74

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If your intention is to contest the charge i.e. plead not guilty I would strongly advise you to seek professional legal advice. Specialists in railway law are available but they are usually very expensive so I would suggest you instruct a local solicitor which deals in criminal law as they should be able to give adequate advice.

We can give plenty of advice and information on this forum but if you really are serious about fighting the charge against you then I cannot help but feel that you need more than we can provide.

Particularly seeing as I'm not confident you fully understand the point that DaveNewcastle has made at least twice now most recently in post #90.
 

20052534

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That isn't what you said earlier:

"I then realised that, unusually, I had some cash with me." Is what I wrote in my final letter sent most recent to TIL written as a brief explanation. The reason I had enough money to pay for the ticket (but couldn't personally afford) was because I borrowed some from a family friend whom I live with to cover me until my loan went in. I have no immediate family...

This statement seems to put an end to speculation, you had the money but weren't willing to use it to buy a ticket.

How could I? I wouldn't have had any money to live or eat when moving into my new student house.
 

ainsworth74

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How could I? I wouldn't have had any money to live or eat when moving into my new student house.

Unfortunately, and I know this seems harsh, but that doesn't matter. The offence is travelling without having previously paid your fare. The circumstances which led you to do so do not matter only that you did.

"I then realised that, unusually, I had some cash with me." Is what I wrote in my final letter sent most recent to TIL written as a brief explanation.

It would not surprise if, having read that, they started to wonder if this wasn't the first time you had travelled without paying for a ticket. That may not be what you meant to imply but to someone who knows very little about you beyond what correspondence they have received from you and the information taken at the time along with their own experience I can see them reaching that conclusion.
 

island

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This is going around in large circles. To return to the facts:

The OP travelled on a train without having previously paid his fare. That does not appear seriously disputed. Based on what he has posted, he either did not have the money to pay the fare, or had it but could not "afford" to use it to pay that fare.

The above collection of facts is sufficient, if proved in court, to convict on the offence charged. Anything else is fluff.
 

najaB

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If your intention is to contest the charge i.e. plead not guilty I would strongly advise you to seek professional legal advice.

Particularly seeing as I'm not confident you fully understand the point that DaveNewcastle has made at least twice now most recently in post #90.
I agree. The crux of the case is contained in this statement:
I didn't say that I didn't have the money, I said that I could not afford that sum, at that time.
You were physically able to pay at the time, but chose not to. That means that all the talk of if you received letters or not is, basically, waffle.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Does this mean that I have to attend the hearing and plead not guilty, or will my written plea of NOT guilty do this for me, so that I would not have to attend the hearing personally?
You can plea not guilty by post and then not appear, but there's no point in doing that unless you've agreed with the Court and with the Prosecution that all the Evidence will be heard at the later date. It is not uncommon for a Defendant to be absent when it has been agreed by all three parties that the matter will be heard at a later date.

With regard to the Clerk, can I just call Cheltenham Magistrates and ask them?
Yes.

Does the witnesses that I require have to be written on the Plea form also?
Either there, or in other wriiten documents (email is acceptable) to both the other parties (the Prosecution and the Court).

I am unsure as to what you mean here... I am not very knowledgeable with these phrases or sayings - sorry!
If you're stuggling with the 'big words' "constructive", "concilliation" and "negotiation", that you really would be best advised to, either plea Guilty, or instruct a local solicitor practicing in Criminal Defence work to help you. If there's something clumsy about my grammar that's confusing you, them I'm sorry.

Reviewing your posts on here, I cannot advise you to defend yourself. The analysis of cost / benefit / risk is extremely poor. With proper representation in Court, I guess that you'd probably do quite well.
 
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20052534

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Basically he is saying the ball is in their court, so you need to grovel a bit and convince them that it's better all around to settle rather than take this through the courts.
Okay, thanks for clearing that one up :) but how can I go about this if what I've tried to do hasn't worked. How is it better for them?

----New post below----
But according to your initial post he issued you the zero-fare ticket before Bristol even entered the picture.

No. He issued me with the Zero-Fare ticket after I remained on the train passed Cheltenham and asked for a ticket to Bristol. Then he asked me for the sum of the journey, I said I couldn't afford it, he took my details, which I gave him correctly and honestly, then issued me with the ticket. Then said use this to get through at Bristol, and also wrote something on it that had smeared away.
 

20052534

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Unfortunately, and I know this seems harsh, but that doesn't matter. The offence is travelling without having previously paid your fare. The circumstances which led you to do so do not matter only that you did.
But I did pay for the fair that I intended to make. I fell asleep, my mistake.


It would not surprise if, having read that, they started to wonder if this wasn't the first time you had travelled without paying for a ticket. That may not be what you meant to imply but to someone who knows very little about you beyond what correspondence they have received from you and the information taken at the time along with their own experience I can see them reaching that conclusion.
In my first letter I sent to TIL, I said that I have paid the full fairs on all of my journeys for the last 3 years (how long I had been at University, had no other reason to travel by train before that) and that XC should have record of this.
 
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