Court Threat For Teenager Over 60p Gwersyllt Train Fare

[merlodlliw]

The Wrexham/Bidston line and Gwersyllt station in particular as been mentioned many times for fare evading on rail uk forums, this just confirms what local RF members have known.

Copy from Wrexham.com a popular website http://www.wrexham.com/news/court-threat-for-teenager-over-60p-gwersyllt-train-fare-36232.html
A number of Arriva Trains passengers were accused of ‘dodging the train fare’ yesterday afternoon.

Around 10 – 15 people were approaching passengers as they left the train to inform them that they hadn’t paid for their ticket, before taking their contact details and making them sign a statement.

Joanne Jones contacted us to say that her 17-year-old daughter was approached by the group of men yesterday and was told that she was guilty of jumping the train. However the ticket had not yet been paid as the conductor had not been around the train to ask for her ticket.

Mrs Jones told us that when the group approached her daughter, they said “We want your name and address and don’t want any b*******.”

However Mrs Jones said that her daughter offered to pay the 60p when confronted rather than sign the form, but was told that this was not possible. We told Arriva Trains this and asked if it is possible to pay the fare rather than provide personal details, however they said ‘they were unable to comment without knowing all the details of the situation.’

After contacting the person in charge yesterday, Mrs Jones was told that it is the passengers responsibility to find the conductor to pay their fare.

Mrs Jones said: “If the conductor starts asking for tickets at Wrexham Central, that’s not our fault, it’s his. It’s the conductor’s job to do that, what happens if you have a pushchair or items with you? You can’t just ask someone to look after your shopping while you look for the conductor.

“I came away feeling quite angry. We have been told that we will have 21 days to reply to the letter or we will be taken to court.”

Another parent got in touch to tell us that his 16-year-old son and his friends were also stopped at the station and were told that they had not paid for their tickets.

The group said there isn’t a ticket machine where they got on and they couldn’t see the conductor. A number of the group were taken into some of the nearby cabins and had to sign a similar statement, providing their name and addresses.

One point that was raised was that ‘buses can take money at the start of a stop / journey, so why can’t trains?’.

A spokesperson for Arriva Trains Wales said: “Arriva Trains Wales employs experienced Revenue Protection Teams to randomly descend on station exits and trains to check that passengers have the correct ticket for their journey.

“It is the passenger’s responsibility to ensure they have the correct ticket for their journey and it is advised that where possible to plan their journey in advance or ensure they have enough time to purchase their ticket before they get on the train where ticket buying facilities exist.

“We will always take genuine reasons for not buying the correct ticket into account”.

I don't think it will go to court just a good warning to others who abuse the system. Perhaps another reason why Wrexham Central footfall is artificially low.

 

[Morden Via CHX]

After contacting the person in charge yesterday, Mrs Jones was told that it is the passengers responsibility to find the conductor to pay their fare.

!!!!! thought it was the other way round?

 

[Eagle]

It's not. The guard isn't psychic, how's he going to magically know who needs to buy a ticket?

 

[merlodlliw]

It's not. The guard isn't psychic, how's he going to magically know who needs to buy a ticket?

On the Chester/Shrewsbury line the conductor usually asks any fares from Ruabon etc etc, although its only around ten minutes to Wrx Central from Gwersyllt,


Bob

 

[Eagle]

I know they usually do that, but you can't blame the fact that the conductor didn't get to you in time on your ten minute journey. It's the passenger's prerogative to buy a ticket.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I know they usually do that, but you can't blame the fact that the conductor didn't get to you in time on your ten minute journey. It's the passenger's prerogative to buy a ticket.

Sorry but its fairly common on conductor only routes especially on short flows it doesn't matter what the official line is. People do not seek conductors out when they normally expect them to come round. The trouble is all too often they don't come round in time often through no fault of their own but I've seen plenty of rear cab cop outs on evening / night time.
Overcrowding, problem with ticket machine, a couple of complicated sells or just simply more people traveling now then when conductor sales were introduced.

Having a gang of hired in revenue protection people who usually display no knowledge of local conditions or common sense a few minutes out when the conductor has seemingly failed to come round is near harassment

 

[Tomnick]

I know they usually do that, but you can't blame the fact that the conductor didn't get to you in time on your ten minute journey. It's the passenger's prerogative to buy a ticket.

What are they meant to do then? Barge in and interrupt the guard whilst he's selling someone else a ticket or attending to his safety-critical duties? I'd agree that it's the passengers' responsibility to make themselves known to the guard as he passes through the train, but I think it's unreasonable and impractical for them all to be actively seeking him out for the duration of their journey.

 

[Bevan Price]

Perhaps some of the "revenue people" might be more gainfully employed by going to the Wrexham stations and checking / selling tickets to passengers before they boarded trains ?

 

[causton]

Perhaps some of the "revenue people" might be more gainfully employed by going to the Wrexham stations and checking / selling tickets to passengers before they boarded trains ?

For a 60p train fare it probably only makes financial sense if they charge a much larger amount through court proceedings, rather than collect the fares!

 

[merlodlliw]

Sorry but its fairly common on conductor only routes especially on short flows it doesn't matter what the official line is. People do not seek conductors out when they normally expect them to come round. The trouble is all too often they don't come round in time often through no fault of their own but I've seen plenty of rear cab cop outs on evening / night time.
Overcrowding, problem with ticket machine, a couple of complicated sells or just simply more people traveling now then when conductor sales were introduced.

Having a gang of hired in revenue protection people who usually display no knowledge of local conditions or common sense a few minutes out when the conductor has seemingly failed to come round is near harassment

It may not be common knowledge to many RF members, many of these revenue protection gangs are hired in from agencies, who indeed have little knowledge of the local area,yesterday some were perhaps clamping cars or on security duty at a Morrisons, a few have little common sense,just a cap between the ears.I first met a gang of them at Surbiton station a few years ago hired in by the local toc, the uniform was the oversize cap.

 

[headshot119]

As a local, and semi regular user of the line I can only say the following :

Wrexham General has full ticket issuing facilities, both a booking office manned between 06:00, and 19:00, plus a TVM accessible 24 hours a day.

Wrexham Central has a TVM which takes cash only (Or at least it was cash only last time I tried to use it).

Most people I see traveling to Gwersylt are trying to pay with cash, they've passed an opportunity to pay at both stations, and most are banking on the guard not getting to them before Gwersylt in order to get a free ride (I call it Front Coach Syndrome). I for one welcome these prosecutions with open arms and hope ATW have the commitment to see them all through to court.

It's nice to see the issue of revenue protection on the Bidston line is finally being taken seriously.

It's a shame we can't see similar with people traveling to Wrexham General from Ruabon and Chirk.

 

[jonners03]

the problem here is that passengers have been dodging their fares for years

it does very clearly state in the national conditions of carriage that it is the passengers responsibility to ensure they have the correct ticket for their journey prior to departure!!

Wrexham Central and General do have ticket vending machines therefore they should be used prior to departure

TOC's only rightfully want the revenue that they are owed for passengers travelling on their trains

I CANT SEE THE PROBLEM WITH WHAT THE TOCS ARE DOING
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
rubbish

 

[Monty]

I first met a gang of them at Surbiton station a few years ago hired in by the local toc, the uniform was the oversize cap.

South West Trains (the TOC concerned who manage Surbiton railway station) have never used an outside agency staff for revenue protection duties. They have however used them for general security work and covering barrier lines when their is a shortage of barrier staff.

 

[tony6499]

It mentions her 17 year old daughter not paying her 60p fare, that seems cheap

 

[Cheshire Rover]

ATW are very active at the moment. Twice this week they have had RPI squads at Earlestown and twice I have seen people nabbed.
To be honest, I fully support this. As a regular commuter and sometime season ticket holder I hate to see fare dodging. However, with the large number of unmanned stations, many without TVM's they to leave themselves open to fare dodging.

 

[headshot119]

It mentions her 17 year old daughter not paying her 60p fare, that seems cheap

Wrexham Central to Gwersyllt is £1.00 single (65p with a railcard), though the article doesn't say where she was traveling from.

 

[Gareth Marston]

People who think everyone without a ticket is a fare dodger are wrong , you shouldn't just assume as these minimum wage rent a body RPI gangs do, it's plain anti customer stupidity. They catch all regardless of circumstance, local conditions. Also they just help enforce the image of the TOC,s as money grabbing non caring entity's.

The answer to front coach symptom is easy the conductors can start at the front checking tickets. I've seen Machynlleth crews do this loads of times at Aberystwyth it keeps the Borth fare dodgers on their toes. The conductor can operate any door on the 150's on the Bidston line, surely a bit of common sense from the Chester crews following their Mid Wales counterparts would knock the problem on the head. He/she can be at the front leaving Cefn y bydd on the way in. It's hardly rocket science.

Both central and general are open stations therefore there is no compunction for passengers to buy tickets regardless of tvm's or not.

 

[6Gman]

I'm confused! Were these passengers travelling from Gwersyllt to Wrexham or from Wrexham to Gwersyllt?

 

[headshot119]

Traveling to Gwersyllt as that was where the revenue block was.

 

[IanXC]

Both central and general are open stations therefore there is no compunction for passengers to buy tickets regardless of tvm's or not.

When you say they are "open stations" do you mean that they are not Compulsory Ticket Areas?

My understanding is that this case involves travel from a station with a TVM to a station with no ticket issuing facilities. It is correct to say that a passenger could opt not to use the TVM at the origin station (on the basis that they would have to pay a full un-discounted Anytime fare), however that does not absolve them of their obligation to pay the fare due, at which point I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect them to seek out the guard to purchase said ticket.

 

[the sniper]

It may not be common knowledge to many RF members, many of these revenue protection gangs are hired in from agencies,

It may not be common knowledge because many (most?) TOCs don't do this... My TOC only employs its RPIs directly, there'd be a pretty big stink with the union if they started using agencies.

 

[BestWestern]

One point that was raised was that ‘buses can take money at the start of a stop / journey, so why can’t trains?’.

Seriously?!!

On a more sensible note, it's good to see fare evasion being tackled, and a focus on local trips with small fares is just as welcome as any other campaign. However, it is very obviously a complete nonsense to try and burden passengers with having the responsibility to find the Guard for a ticket. That is nothing more than a get out clause to allow a TOC to thrust PFs or prosecutions at people with complete impunity. There are 101 reasons why a Guard may not reach every passenger, and very, very few of them are the passenger's fault.

 

[merlodlliw]

As a local, and semi regular user of the line I can only say the following :

Wrexham General has full ticket issuing facilities, both a booking office manned between 06:00, and 19:00, plus a TVM accessible 24 hours a day.

Wrexham Central has a TVM which takes cash only (Or at least it was cash only last time I tried to use it).

Most people I see traveling to Gwersylt are trying to pay with cash, they've passed an opportunity to pay at both stations, and most are banking on the guard not getting to them before Gwersylt in order to get a free ride (I call it Front Coach Syndrome). I for one welcome these prosecutions with open arms and hope ATW have the commitment to see them all through to court.

It's nice to see the issue of revenue protection on the Bidston line is finally being taken seriously.

It's a shame we can't see similar with people traveling to Wrexham General from Ruabon and Chirk.

I dont condone fare avoidance at all, but I gain the impression the travel in this case was from Gwersyllt to Central.

Mrs Jones told us that when the group approached her daughter, they said “We want your name and address and don’t want any b*******.”

this quote from the story if correct is not professional,but alas typical of hired in RPI agency gangs of which some have perhaps an hours induction.

 

[Monty]

this quote from the story if correct is not professional,but alas typical of hired in RPI agency gangs of which some have perhaps an hours induction.

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

 

[34D]

When you say they are "open stations" do you mean that they are not Compulsory Ticket Areas?

My understanding is that this case involves travel from a station with a TVM to a station with no ticket issuing facilities. It is correct to say that a passenger could opt not to use the TVM at the origin station (on the basis that they would have to pay a full un-discounted Anytime fare), however that does not absolve them of their obligation to pay the fare due, at which point I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect them to seek out the guard to purchase said ticket.

This isn't quite correct. If the TVM will issue their required ticket and take their required payment, then it must be used. Otherwise the passenger risks prosecution.

 

[Gareth Marston]

This isn't quite correct. If the TVM will issue their required ticket and take their required payment, then it must be used. Otherwise the passenger risks prosecution.

There was a card only tvm installed at Welshpool this year locals are hyper reluctant to use it as there's been a whole series of cloning incidents with cash points in the town over the last 12 months. It's been taken up with atw as the status of customers who board trains and then ask to pay by card, the replies have been non committal, but conductors have just issued tickets normally.

The real world is not black and white despite what terms and conditions say, another big factor in not using tvms the complexity of the fare system and having to have a machine with all the options, they confuse many and its human nature to ask a person. Look at the self scan checkouts in supermarkets the process is moderately non complex but many still shy away from using them and there simpler than tvms.

 

[dysonsphere]

I ran into a similar problem at Hayes and Harlington a few years ago. I was aggressively challenged by a protection "person" (I had a ticket by the way) who had hidden his ID badge, when challenged for his name and company refused to show ID. It took a chat with station manager to get onto platform. As you can imagine a complaint followed.

 

[merlodlliw]

Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

If you are referring to induction by agencies, I have seen examples of desperation by agencies when a job is booked for specialist work and not enough people are available, some are taken off mundane work on zero contracts and given less than an hours training, this is common in the agency world.
ATW hire in agency staff
Bob

 

[MrsDavidCaruso]

For years I used the Paddington 'local line' trains going to Oxford, Reading and Heathrow
when I worked in Hayes. There was never a ticket Barrier at Paddington for access to these lines and only sporadic inspections at Hayes.

Then they decided to install TB at Paddington for these lines, in advance of the TBs being in operation they started having revenue protection people checking tickets when people left the train.

The first time it happened I got stuck behind the revenue people as they were checking tickets and was in a good position to see what was happening, I would say about a third of the people stopped had no ticket I saw them (mainly working people in smart suits and clothes) being taken to one side.

Now for those of you who know how crowded the Oxford and Reading trains get by the time they reach Paddington during rush hour, thats a rather large number of people who have no ticket/or incorrect ticket being caught, and that was one day and one train, it happened for ages until the barriers were up and running.

How many people on those lines got away with fare dodging on a regular basis until measures were taken to stop them.

I applaud any measures taken by the rail companies to ensure everyone pays for their fares and to prosecute any one who is caught fare dodging

BTW what does her age have to do with anything at 17 she is not a child. FFS I was MARRIED at that age and certainly considered my self old enough to be responsible for my own actions - and so did my parents.

 

[Gareth Marston]

For years I used the Paddington 'local line' trains going to Oxford, Reading and Heathrow
when I worked in Hayes. There was never a ticket Barrier at Paddington for access to these lines and only sporadic inspections at Hayes.

Then they decided to install TB at Paddington for these lines, in advance of the TBs being in operation they started having revenue protection people checking tickets when people left the train.

The first time it happened I got stuck behind the revenue people as they were checking tickets and was in a good position to see what was happening, I would say about a third of the people stopped had no ticket I saw them (mainly working people in smart suits and clothes) being taken to one side.

Now for those of you who know how crowded the Oxford and Reading trains get by the time they reach Paddington during rush hour, thats a rather large number of people who have no ticket/or incorrect ticket being caught, and that was one day and one train, it happened for ages until the barriers were up and running.

How many people on those lines got away with fare dodging on a regular basis until measures were taken to stop them.

I applaud any measures taken by the rail companies to ensure everyone pays for their fares and to prosecute any one who is caught fare dodging

BTW what does her age have to do with anything at 17 she is not a child. FFS I was MARRIED at that age and certainly considered my self old enough to be responsible for my own actions - and so did my parents.

Your wrong there as not everything is black and white, the problem with the hired in gangs is that they have no knowledge and display no discretion resulting in those that are innocent being treated as criminals.