Court threat - Northern Rail

[chris5]

Hi all, I was hoping that somebody could please offer me some advice.

I recently boarded a train to Manchester Victoria. My local station doesn't have a ticket vendor of any kind. I boarded the train however there was no option to buy a ticket on the train. I left the train at my destination and took a left turn at the top of the steps where I saw a door ajar which looked like it may have somewhere to purchase a ticket. As I innocently stepped through the door I was approached from behind and stopped by a member of staff at Northern Rail. I am now facing a Fixed Penalty Notice of £80 + £3.40 fare.

I had nowhere to purchase a ticket, I had offered to pay the man who stopped me and I also asked where I can buy one. By this time he said it was too late because I had technically left the station and that I will be receiving a letter through the post asking for my fare. I said this is fine I will pay my fare this way instead of looking for a ticket machine now. Paying twice seemed unnecessary.

I received the letter and responded by expressing my disapproval at the whole situation and again offered to pay my fare. I also offered tips on how to prevent other innocent members of the public getting stung in this way.

The FPN I have received says "We have evidence that indicates that you have committed an offence under section 5.3(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act".


I cannot help but think this is just a scaremongering technique.
I would appreciate some expert opinion on this please. This is a huge scam!

Thanks

Chris

 

[chris5]

Can I also add that the door I stepped through was not labelled as exit therefore saw no problem with seeing what was behind it. It was wide open.

I am considering an appeal.

 

[323235]

Personally (others may disagree) I think there is enough evidence for you to be prosecuted under Regulation of Railways Section (5.3) if you had walked through the door and exited the station into the (car park?).

By exiting your destination station (through whichever door this maybe) without purchasing a ticket then you are showing intent the avoid paying the correct fare. Before that point you had committed no offence as there are no ticket buying facilities at Patricroft therefore a byelaw 18 offence of simply not having a valid ticket had not been commited (this comes with a lesser fine , requires no evidence of intent needs to be proven and does not come with a criminal record).

I would with the facts presented pay the £80+fare as you will pay far more in court if they go all the way and you will get a criminal record if they choose to prosecute under Regulation of Railways Section 5.3. Next time though they won't be so lenient.

So I would make sure you know where the ticket office is. There are diagrams on National Rail Enquiries website for each station.

 

[chris5]

Personally (others may disagree) I think there is enough evidence for you to be prosecuted under Regulation of Railways Section (5.3) if you had walked through the door and exited the station into the (car park?).

By exiting your destination station (through whichever door this maybe) without purchasing a ticket then you are showing intent the avoid paying the correct fare. Before that point you had committed no offence as there are no ticket buying facilities at Patricroft therefore a byelaw 18 offence of simply not having a valid ticket had not been commited (this comes with a lesser fine , requires no evidence of intent needs to be proven and does not come with a criminal record).

I would with the facts presented pay the £80+fare as you will pay far more in court if they go all the way and you will get a criminal record if they choose to prosecute under Regulation of Railways Section 5.3. Next time though they won't be so lenient.

So I would make sure you know where the ticket office is. There are diagrams on National Rail Enquiries website for each station.

The door I exited from was not labelled as an exit, neither was there daylight outside. Therefore this open door looked like an entrance to another part of the train station. I have since found out that the door leads to the Manchester arena. However this wasn't made clear either.

 

[Fare-Cop]

No, not a scam.

I agree that this is likely to hold up in Court.

Presumably you were questioned under caution, were given an opportunity to read the notes that had been made and it seems that you signed those notes as an accurate record.

If they have offered you an opportunity to pay a fixed penalty, I agree that it would be a good idea to take it.

 

[maniacmartin]

Is this the door you used (at the top of this plan to M.E.N. Arena)?

I don't know Manchester Victoria very well so hopefully someone more local will be able to comment on the signage around the top of the stairs, but from the very limited pictures on Stations Made Easy, I'd say the story is at least plausible

 

[455driver]

Is this the normal exit you use from the station?

 

[furlong]

Many would pay up rather than deal with the stress of court and the risk of fines, costs and a criminal record.

"Would have exited without ticket if not stopped , did not see anywhere to pay".

Some questions to ponder.

Which platform did you arrive at?
Did you follow signs to this exit from the station?
Did you also pass any signs to the ticket office?

Did you not pass any opportunity to pay?
If not, why was the person who stopped you not instead employed to stand on your route to the exit in uniform selling tickets to people like you (or accompanied by someone doing so)?

Are you sufficiently familiar with the station to know there is a ticket office and its location?
How often do you make this journey?
How often do you pay for it?

 

[neilmc]

Yes of course it's a scam but I'm afraid it's a quite legal one, when Northern can reap large sums from penalising unaware passengers in this way there's no incentive for them to provide proper ticketing at small stations or adequate fare collection on trains. This comes up on this forum on a regular basis.

However given the layout of Manchester Victoria it's quite easy to exit without passing a ticket office or barrier thus it could be argued by Northern that there was intent to do so, and as other members have pointed out to try to argue your innocence in court could prove to be much more costly.

Ideally someone who has fallen victim to this should raise the issue with the media.

 

[chris5]

Is this the door you used (at the top of this plan to M.E.N. Arena)?

I don't know Manchester Victoria very well so hopefully someone more local will be able to comment on the signage around the top of the stairs, but from the very limited pictures on Stations Made Easy, I'd say the story is at least plausible

Yes this looks like it. It was wide open with what looks like yellow ticket machines behind it to the right....

 

[chris5]

Many would pay up rather than deal with the stress of court and the risk of fines, costs and a criminal record.



Some questions to ponder.

Which platform did you arrive at? From what I can see on the station layout it looks like 6a
Did you follow signs to this exit from the station? I dont recall seeing any signs
Did you also pass any signs to the ticket office?I didnt see any

Did you not pass any opportunity to pay? No
If not, why was the person who stopped you not instead employed to stand on your route to the exit in uniform selling tickets to people like you (or accompanied by someone doing so)? I cannot answer that. I'd like to know the answer myself

Are you sufficiently familiar with the station to know there is a ticket office and its location? No
How often do you make this journey? I usually drive into town. This was a one off journey
How often do you pay for it? n/a

Questions answered....

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Yes this looks like it. It was wide open with what looks like yellow ticket machines behind it to the right....

Yellow ticket machines could be for the MEN car park. I use Victoria for both train and car park and although it is slightly confusing there really isn't and excuse for confusing the railway station main exits and the car park.
That said, it does seem that Northern do their best to make things difficult.

 

[Andrewlong]

Is this the door you used (at the top of this plan to M.E.N. Arena)?

I don't know Manchester Victoria very well so hopefully someone more local will be able to comment on the signage around the top of the stairs, but from the very limited pictures on Stations Made Easy, I'd say the story is at least plausible

How would an infrequent traveller know where the station premises end and the MEN starts if there is no signage? Not being a local I could see myself making exactly the same mistake.

Perhaps a letter to operator of station stating need for exit signage copied to local newspaper might be worth considering. I would pay the fine and learn from your experiences.

 

[156441]

The yellow machines are indeed car park machines and do look a little like TVM's.

There are no ticket office signs coming from P6 and there are several exit options. I believe the way you left is simply labelled 'exit to trinity way'

I'm normally very pro Northerns revenue protection stings and I've got to admit your story sounds very fishy however looking at the facts would seem you raise some valid points about the teams at MCV.

 

[Chapeltom]

Can you be on that bridge without a ticket legitimately? I mean, can the non-travelling public be on there, isn't it something to do with the Arena?

 

[6Gman]

Manchester Victoria in this - as in many other ways - is a mess. There seem to be at least 3 ways to leave the main platform areas, two of which offer no ticket purchasing opportunities, and carry the risk of legal action.

 

[cuccir]

If your story is true, whether you are guilty of intentionally attempting to avoid paying a fare will depend on whether walking out of the station can be taken as proof of this intention. I'm reminded of a case from last year on these boards when Northern threatened to prosecute a woman who walked past the ticket-office at Chapel-en-le-Frith (I think!), in the direction of the old ticket office, thinking that she could pay there. In this instance, Northern decided not to prosecute. I wouldn't read this as proof that they'd also drop your case, but there are similarities.

You have a few options in front of you.

1. Pay the fine. It's annoying, it may not be fair, but it makes the problem go away.

2. Refuse to pay the fine, but send a letter with a cheque for you fare and an explanation. In your correspondence, instruct that you were unaware that you had exited the station, and that you would have turned round back to the main part of the station upon seeing that the yellow machines were not ticket machines.

Option 2 will result in three possible outcome. First, they may drop the case. Second, they may attempt to prosecute under the railway by-laws (this seems unlikely). Third, they may attempt to prosecute under the Regulation of the Railways Act, which is their threat. If found guilty, you would receive a fine and a criminal record. If they proceeded down this route, I'd advise you to get yourself a solicitor.

 

[sheff1]

Yellow ticket machines could be for the MEN car park. I use Victoria for both train and car park and although it is slightly confusing there really isn't and excuse for confusing the railway station main exits and the car park.

I thought the exit being talked about was the Arena one rather than the car park one.

Victoria is a most confusing station. The wide expanse of doors at the Arena entrance looks very like a main exit. Indeed, the first time I arrived on the island platform at Victoria, I went through those doors and was completely baffled as to where I was.

Of course, Northern could position ticket sellers on the station side of said doors but, presumably, far more lucrative to have RPIs on the other side !

 

[chris5]

Thanks to all for replies. It seems there is an appeal process you can go through. You only go to court upon refusal to pay, therefore if my appeal fails I will be given the chance to settle out of court again.

I have since been back to the station to take a number of photographs which are part of my appeal evidence.

I shall report back on the outcome of this.

My girlfriend has some contacts in the media because of her profession, she thinks she knows somebody who would be very interested to write about this.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Thanks to all for replies. It seems there is an appeal process you can go through. You only go to court upon refusal to pay, therefore if my appeal fails I will be given the chance to settle out of court again.

Whilst you may well get an option to pay it is probably a good idea to accept it. It may be Northern's practice to allow an out of court settlement option in the majority of breach of byelaw cases, but you should never rely on this.

If there are other factors, such as demonstrating clear intent to avoid the liability, no TOC is obliged to allow settlement.

I have since been back to the station to take a number of photographs which are part of my appeal evidence.

I shall report back on the outcome of this.

I note that at least one of the forum users suggest that if this is the door that you used, it is actually signed as an 'exit' and another has suggested that it looks like the main exit.

The TOC are not obliged to put staff on that route out of the station to sell tickets as someone suggested. They may well have put in operation a revenue exercise with some staff directed to observe and check anyone leaving the station via that route.

My girlfriend has some contacts in the media because of her profession, she thinks she knows somebody who would be very interested to write about this.

Whilst you may not have meant to comment in this way and I apologise if you did not, but I think it's worth noting that threats of a media expose are unlikely to sway the TOC and often harden the resolve to see the legislation enforced.

If there is real injustice then of course it should be highlighted, but if not, then in my honest opinion it isn't a good idea.

In the 35 years that I've been employed in the industry reporters on the Daily Mail in particular (and a few others) have been jumping to conclusions in these cases with monotonous regularity. The legislation that has remained in place for the last 130-odd years is unaltered and the byelaws have been strengthened during the same period.

Now before many rip into me for pointing out these facts, I'm certainly not saying that Chris5 shouldn't appeal any letter received from Northern.

What I am saying is that it's always best to concentrate on what actually happened and we have to remember that we only ever have one side of the incident report on here.

 

[chris5]

I note that at least one of the forum users suggest that if this is the door that you used, it is actually signed as an 'exit' and another has suggested that it looks like the main exit.

It isn't from Platform 6b, I have photographs to prove it. This is not the main exit, it is the exit to the Manchester Arena which I have since found out.

Whilst you may not have meant to comment in this way and I apologise if you did not, but I think it's worth noting that threats of a media expose are unlikely to sway the TOC and often harden the resolve to see the legislation enforced.

I have not made any threats to them.

 

[talltim]

Exit signs (in general) aren't always at the exit anyway, they often point the way to the exit. You might follow an exit sign attempting to find a ticket office en route to the actual way out of the station.

 

[455driver]

Surely if you intended to pay for a ticket you would head towards the entrance (where people are entering the platform from) rather than the exit?

 

[cuccir]

Surely if you intended to pay for a ticket you would head towards the entrance (where people are entering the platform from) rather than the exit?

Don't call me Shirley?

Seriously, though, there is checking out a story and then there is not wanting to believe someone. An entrance is also frequently an exit. It just depends what side you're coming from. I don't think this is a particularly helpful question.

 

[185]

In my view, this is another 'Blackburn trap'. Northern Rail Prosecutions make the assumption that people leaving the train then walking out door A instead of door B are automatically committing fare evasion. Adequate signs would add weight to Northern Rail's case, but there is simply no relevant signage from the bridge, I've just checked.

About a week ago, I played daft with an RPO (I had a valid pass, and only told him this after a minute or so) - but I have now witnessed where they were stood and established under which circumstances they would TIR a passenger eg- from Patricroft (unstaffed). He seemed mildly angry initially until I suggested that by doing these operations, his company was making his and other RPI's jobs unbearable - he did not disagree.

I am aware trading standards at Blackburn Council are currently looking at their own local situation. Manchester has the added weight of a PTE overseeing Northern, and I am sure they will intervene (again).

Northern have my full support in things like short fare exercises and fake ticket operations, but using quite rubbish 'Blackburn traps' opens a risk of prosecuting perfectly innocent passengers alongside the actual targets.

 

[sheff1]

Surely if you intended to pay for a ticket you would head towards the entrance (where people are entering the platform from) rather than the exit?

Well people are entering via the exit and exiting via the entrance all the time. Unsurprising really as the location in question is both an entrance and an exit.

 

[chris5]

Just an update...

I appealed my fixed penalty notice by submitting photographic evidence and an explanation of how it was impossible for me to purchase a ticket, and how easy it is to mistake the car parking ticket machine for a rail fare machine.

Northern rail have sent me a letter telling me that they have decided not to take me to court and asked me to pay the £3.40 fare.

Case closed.

Please all beware of this scam operating within Victoria station.

 

[bb21]

Good. Northern need to sort the mess out at Victoria asap but somehow I doubt that would happen any time soon.