Covid restrictions - protests/disobedience, and are people just getting fed up with it?

[brad465]

I understand some businesses in the UK are planning to reopen on 30 January; I understand where they are coming from totally but I think that they should wait at least 2-3 weeks but by late February / early March I would absolutely support any that chose to open at that stage. I do fear that by opening too early it will backfire. If they time it right I am sure they will get good public support.

The measures taken to combat the virus are an attack on us all and set an incredibly dangerous precedent.

Make no mistake: authoritarians are attacking our very way of life and they don't want to let us have our freedoms back any time soon; they are calling for long, harsh lockdowns and for so-called "zero covid" strategies that would cause immense suffering for millions and loss of many livelihoods. The rise of authoritarianism must be halted.

I've discovered the business reopening motive you're understanding, which is being called "The Great Reopening", taking place on the 30th January as you state. It has a number of groups across all social media platforms and looking at Simon Dolan's Twitter page he's been backing it with retweeting/quote tweeting anything related to it.

 

[Yew]

I've discovered the business reopening motive you're understanding, which is being called "The Great Reopening", taking place on the 30th January as you state. It has a number of groups across all social media platforms and looking at Simon Dolan's Twitter page he's been backing it with retweeting/quote tweeting anything related to it.

Kick it back a fortnight and I can get on board, but next week seems a little soon.

 

[brad465]

Kick it back a fortnight and I can get on board, but next week seems a little soon.

Yes I think it would be more effective then. Given the groups' followings across all the social media platforms I checked I don't see the number of businesses getting involved being more than 1000 nationally, and I view that as a tall order. It would be more effective if they do it a few days after the mid-February review, where if those businesses either don't know when they'll reopen or it's a very long way off (such as greater than 1 month from that announcement), they'll have good traction.

 

[takno]

Interesting article on business using loopholes or reopening covertly in Poland: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/01/26/polands-businesses-are-rejecting-their-lockdown/

Jozef Pasek is just one of hundreds of entrepreneurs in Poland who have decided to, more or less overtly, reopen their doors in violation of government lockdown rules that have been in effect since late last year, as the country nears 1.5 million total COVID-19 cases. Courts have thus far taken the side of the mutinous businesses that deem the restrictions to be illegal.

There has also been a return to the nightly women's rights protests. It's an interesting situation.

 

[bramling]

Kick it back a fortnight and I can get on board, but next week seems a little soon.

I agree it’s politically not the right time. Whilst personally I wouldn’t have closed non-essential shops this time round at all, I agree with the view that this will backfire. It’s not going to capture the public mood, the only support will be from people who are already anti-lockdown. It’s also the wrong time of year to make a stand.

 

[notlob.divad]

Interesting article on business using loopholes or reopening covertly in Poland: https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/01/26/polands-businesses-are-rejecting-their-lockdown/

There has also been a return to the nightly women's rights protests. It's an interesting situation.

The rejection of lockdown by some businesses has been going on for a while. Some openly, others more under the radar. If you know where to go, you can sit in a cafe and have a coffee and a chat. However nothing like the level of support has been provided to businesses as it has in other countries.

Basically all of the restrictions that have been adopted in Poland are unconstitutional without the Government declaring a state of emergency. However doing that would prevent the government from making some of the more politically charged changes it is determined to make, and also force them to provide better compensation to those worst hit. Therefore they didn't do it at the begining of the pandemic, nor did they do it in the Autumn when cases started to surge, so to do it now would probably result in a larger rebellion than just letting these few business

As for the womens stike. It has never really stopped. However it is, nothing like on the scale it was a the end of summer. When it really did rattle Kaczyński. He was visably scared that he would loose total control and result in roling strikes and open defiance from all different sectors of society.

 

[initiation]

Kick it back a fortnight and I can get on board, but next week seems a little soon.

I am completely against lockdowns but totally agree - this will just alienate some in the wider population and cause locktavists to say 'lockdown sceptics want to kill people'.

Two weeks puts it around the review time. Importantly by then the vast majority of vulnerable people should have received the vaccine. We were always told that would be a key milestone so that would be the time to apply pressure.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

These measures are an attack on our Western values, they are an attack on democracy, they are an attack on our freedoms and civil rights. They disregard mental & physical wellbeing and destroy livelihoods.

People are losing faith in democracy and are becoming increasingly angry and upset. This is a dangerous situation.

The longer the authoritarianism currently plaguing our societies continues, the greater the dangers are.

There are many low scale protests but most people are not keen to get involved, at least not yet, even if they sympathise with the cause.

In Italy many restaurants reopened earlier this month in defiance of the lockdown. The mainstream media didn't report on it much; the best I could find from a UK media source was this:

Italy on brink of 'civil disobedience' as public defies Covid rules

ITALY businesses have begun to act out against the Government's coronavirus regulations with small acts of "civil disobedience".

www.express.co.uk

But there are videos on Youtube that give a clearer indication as to what went on, including footage of police being made to leave a restaurant.

I understand some businesses in the UK are planning to reopen on 30 January; I understand where they are coming from totally but I think that they should wait at least 2-3 weeks but by late February / early March I would absolutely support any that chose to open at that stage. I do fear that by opening too early it will backfire. If they time it right I am sure they will get good public support.

The measures taken to combat the virus are an attack on us all and set an incredibly dangerous precedent.

Make no mistake: authoritarians are attacking our very way of life and they don't want to let us have our freedoms back any time soon; they are calling for long, harsh lockdowns and for so-called "zero covid" strategies that would cause immense suffering for millions and loss of many livelihoods. The rise of authoritarianism must be halted.

Dr Vernon Coleman’s warnings last year are not looking like crazy scaremongering any more...

 

[NoOnesFool]

I've voted to repeal this barbaric coronavirus act and protested against it. As Yorkie says, it is an attack on our right to freedom and we can't allow it to continue. Cancer treatment has been stopped, mental health has suffered and people are losing their businesses and livelihoods. It has to stop.

 

[LowLevel]

Using my Facebook of a diverse 700 odd friends from all ages (well, from teens upwards to 80 or so) and walks of life, the vast majority actively support the lockdown/restrictions (constant sharing of photos of sad Boris, "if only people would listen to the restrictions this would be over by now", "wear your mask" etc), a smaller number seem fed up and saddened but largely resigned to getting on with it (particularly those whose livelihoods are being wrecked), smaller still are just carrying on not giving a toss and doing what they wish (selfies with their mates and family etc) and finally there a small group of people who are outright angry and annoyed, much as the contributors to these threads seem largely to be.

I still firmly believe the angry people are largely confined to the same places talking to each other and thus actual widespread action against the lock down/restrictions is highly unlikely here.

As I've mentioned before - a few people going "yes, we all are very angry" to each other repeatedly in slightly different ways does not a revolution make.

The other way of looking at it, as someone who is travelling around a lot to different areas (legitimately as a train guard) is that bar the usual ne'er do wells doing what they will (by which I mean the jumped up glorified swamp ramps lolling around with their tags on their ankles or carrying drugs phones and suspect little bags) most people seem to be largely complying, bar the odd media storm blown up over a few parties.

Sure, I'm sure people are stretching things a bit but I'm not seeing anything I would call routine non compliance. Go out at night and it's totally dead.

Also as I edit again as another thing comes to mind - a number of people who I would have called very much anti lockdown a few months ago have very much changed their tune having had family or friends actually become seriously unwell or die recently. The biggest sharer of facts decrying the restrictions until fairly recently that I knew has quietly started sharing "wear a mask" memes having had 2 friends die in short succession.

 

[Bantamzen]

Using my Facebook of a diverse 700 odd friends from all ages (well, from teens upwards to 80 or so) and walks of life, the vast majority actively support the lockdown/restrictions (constant sharing of photos of sad Boris, "if only people would listen to the restrictions this would be over by now", "wear your mask" etc), a smaller number seem fed up and saddened but largely resigned to getting on with it (particularly those whose livelihoods are being wrecked), smaller still are just carrying on not giving a toss and doing what they wish (selfies with their mates and family etc) and finally there a small group of people who are outright angry and annoyed, much as the contributors to these threads seem largely to be.

I still firmly believe the angry people are largely confined to the same places talking to each other and thus actual widespread action against the lock down/restrictions is highly unlikely here.

As I've mentioned before - a few people going "yes, we all are very angry" to each other repeatedly in slightly different ways does not a revolution make.

The other way of looking at it, as someone who is travelling around a lot to different areas (legitimately as a train guard) is that bar the usual ne'er do wells doing what they will (by which I mean the jumped up glorified swamp ramps lolling around with their tags on their ankles or carrying drugs phones and suspect little bags) most people seem to be largely complying, bar the odd media storm blown up over a few parties.

Sure, I'm sure people are stretching things a bit but I'm not seeing anything I would call routine non compliance. Go out at night and it's totally dead.

And one person's social circle does not a population make. I think you'll find the millions people sitting on furlough wondering if they will have a job to go back to, having to borrow more and more to make ends meet, suffering from depression or finding their NHS treatments being cancelled may have a different viewpoint.

 

[LowLevel]

And one person's social circle does not a population make. I think you'll find the millions people sitting on furlough wondering if they will have a job to go back to, having to borrow more and more to make ends meet, suffering from depression or finding their NHS treatments being cancelled may have a different viewpoint.

All I can say is I fit into several of those categories myself. I am not claiming a particular position (if anything I'm on the sceptic side and until things were forcibly removed again was quite happy visiting the pub, gyms, steam railways etc while maintaining sensible precautions). Just sharing my observation of a relatively large number of people whom I know to a greater or lesser degree. I genuinely believe the greater part of the population, for right or for wrong, is in support of the restrictions. That includes people who are being very significantly disadvantaged by them.

 

[notlob.divad]

I've voted to repeal this barbaric coronavirus act and protested against it. As Yorkie says, it is an attack on our right to freedom and we can't allow it to continue. Cancer treatment has been stopped, mental health has suffered and people are losing their businesses and livelihoods. It has to stop.

I am not writing in support of any particular restrictions: however cancer treatment has not stopped because of the restrictions. Where cancer and other treatments have been stopped it is in places where the NHS is struggling to cope with the surges in demand. Removing all restrictions isn't going to suddenly mean the NHS starts-up those treatments it may have put on hold. Far from it. Removing the restrictions would more see more places shut down their outpatients, and the places currently struggling potentially close their doors to urgent care as well. There is a finite capacity in the system, in terms of beds, doctors, nurses etc. is the capacity enough, no it probably isn't.

The other things you say are probably true, people are under enormous pressure like never before. But again abolishing the restrictions will not just remove those pressures or stop them getting worse. Just saying it has to stop without putting anything else in place will not help anyone. In the UK there is at least a light at the end of this seemingly endless tunnel, vaccine deployment does seem up to now be progressing at a pace beyond comparable countries. This should allow domestically at least things to return to a new normal far sooner than in other places.

I know there are plenty of people on here who reject this, and seem to think the NHS has endless capacity to cope, or everyone is being lied to, and it is no worse that the normal annual pressures the NHS comes under. Well you can continuely lie to yourselves until you are blue in the face. Nobody cancels / delays operations and lifesaving treatments without good reason.

 

[DB]

The other way of looking at it, as someone who is travelling around a lot to different areas (legitimately as a train guard) is that bar the usual ne'er do wells doing what they will (by which I mean the jumped up glorified swamp ramps lolling around with their tags on their ankles or carrying drugs phones and suspect little bags) most people seem to be largely complying, bar the odd media storm blown up over a few parties.

From my travelling for work (on the train), it very much seems that while the train use is well down, car use isn't. Where the line runs close to the major roads, they are getting back towards a more normal level of traffic. Leeds city centre is seeing increasing traffic.

What is probably happening is that those who are going to travel are moatly doing so by car now where they can.

All I can say is I fit into several of those categories myself. I am not claiming a particular position (if anything I'm on the sceptic side and until things were forcibly removed again was quite happy visiting the pub, gyms, steam railways etc while maintaining sensible precautions). Just sharing my observation of a relatively large number of people whom I know to a greater or lesser degree. I genuinely believe the greater part of the population, for right or for wrong, is in support of the restrictions. That includes people who are being very significantly disadvantaged by them.

I wonder how many are saying what they think others will consider acceptable on social media though? Do some of them just want to avoid being lectured for being granny killers?

From talking to work colleagues, a fair proportion have similar views to me - I very much get the impression that while many may support lockdowns, there are a good proportion who don't really, but don't say so much because they don't want an argument.

Another route to problems is some of the inter-personal sniping going on. Pretty much everyone I know is sick of the little things like dirty looks and under-the-breath comments, not just over stuff like masks, but also over things like having the temerity to cough on a train, or passing someone in an alley-way.

Indeed, and it's growing. A few weeks ago I had a Tesco door guardian running after me shouting 'have you got a mask sir' and then when I said I was exempt 'can I see some proof' (I pointed to the lanyard which he had inexplicably not seen, apparently). Yesterday I had a woman giving me dirty looks on a train (glared back at her) - I was wearing a lanyard, then later I had a member of rail staff (who appeared to be going home or between duties) shout down the carriage at me 'have you got a mask'. I just stared at him and he appears then to have noticed that I was wearing a lanyard and backed off rapidly.

None of it's major stuff, but it just gets irritiating and demoralising over time.

 

[35B]

And one person's social circle does not a population make. I think you'll find the millions people sitting on furlough wondering if they will have a job to go back to, having to borrow more and more to make ends meet, suffering from depression or finding their NHS treatments being cancelled may have a different viewpoint.

We all have biases, frequently reflected in our friendship circles (off topic, but I saw some very interesting research about the US showing how decreasing moderation in politics correlates with increasingly distinct friendship circles, with progressively fewer friends identifying as supporting the other party), and will have a tendency to try to amplify phenomena we support and downplay phenomena that we do not. Combine that with the human tendency to tend to assume that, as individuals, we represent some kind of norm, and the echo chamber begins to form.

Your post is an excellent example of that effect at work, focusing on features that you identify with, amplifying them and downplaying others.

On top of that, there is also the question of how motivating a factor is. Taking the fact that many are frustrated or fed up with current restrictions (and that includes me, despite my broad support for current policy) isn't enough to determine whether there will be compliance or a kick back against policy - people then need to be motivated enough to act. I see little evidence of that in what's being said on here, but quite a lot of projection.

 

[NoOnesFool]

From my travelling for work (on the train), it very much seems that while the train use is well down, car use isn't. Where the line runs close to the major roads, they are getting back towards a more normal level of traffic. Leeds city centre is seeing increasing traffic.

What is probably happening is that those who are going to travel are moatly doing so by car now where they can.



I wonder how many are saying what they think others will consider acceptable on social media though? Do some of them just want to avoid being lectured for being granny killers?

From talking to work colleagues, a fair proportion have similar views to me - I very much get the impression that while many may support lockdowns, there are a good proportion who don't really, but don't say so much because they don't want an argument.



Indeed, and it's growing. A few weeks ago I had a Tesco door guardian running after me shouting 'have you got a mask sir' and then when I said I was exempt 'can I see some proof' (I pointed to the lanyard which he had inexplicably not seen, apparently). Yesterday I had a woman giving me dirty looks on a train (glared back at her) - I was wearing a lanyard, then later I had a member of rail staff (who appeared to be going home or between duties) shout down the carriage at me 'have you got a mask'. I just stared at him and he appears then to have noticed that I was wearing a lanyard and backed off rapidly.

None of it's major stuff, but it just gets irritiating and demoralising over time.

You do not need to show any proof of exemption. Exemption cards are not neccessary in law. If your exemption is disability related and the man in Tesco insists on seeing an exemption card, they could be in breach of the Equality Act 2010.

 

[DB]

You do not need to show any proof of exemption. Exemption cards are not neccessary in law. If your exemption is disability related and the man in Tesco insists on seeing an exemption card, they could be in breach of the Equality Act 2010.

Indeed - but, like many people, I've just got so sick of the hassle that I do tend to wear a lanyard now just to shut up most of the jobsworths!

 

[Bantamzen]

We all have biases, frequently reflected in our friendship circles (off topic, but I saw some very interesting research about the US showing how decreasing moderation in politics correlates with increasingly distinct friendship circles, with progressively fewer friends identifying as supporting the other party), and will have a tendency to try to amplify phenomena we support and downplay phenomena that we do not. Combine that with the human tendency to tend to assume that, as individuals, we represent some kind of norm, and the echo chamber begins to form.

Your post is an excellent example of that effect at work, focusing on features that you identify with, amplifying them and downplaying others.

On top of that, there is also the question of how motivating a factor is. Taking the fact that many are frustrated or fed up with current restrictions (and that includes me, despite my broad support for current policy) isn't enough to determine whether there will be compliance or a kick back against policy - people then need to be motivated enough to act. I see little evidence of that in what's being said on here, but quite a lot of projection.

Well we do know that many people have lost their jobs due to covid restrictions, we have learned recently that many more people are borrowing more to get by, we know hospital waiting lists are growing, so the only thing that is really being projected here is how many people are suffering depression as a result. But I would say its a reasonable bet that any combination of the above has a chance of people becoming resentful of the seemingly never ending restrictions. I've certainly witnessed first hand the results of these kinds of things previously in my career, and many of my colleagues continue to do so. What I am certain about is that trying to portray the UK population as being behind restrictions that for many a biting deep is naïve at best.

 

[Yew]

I'm seriously considering whether to start ignoring restrictions on the 15th of Feb, unless there is some significant and rapid return of normality looming. We cannot continue to live in the subhuman existence whilst our technocrats and tyrants move the goalposts ever further away; oblivious of the suffering their egotistical quest to 'defeat' the virus.

 

[yorkie]

Mental health is taking a huge battering.

Some of the emails I've seen from parents about how their children are suffering have been downright frightening; I can only forgive those who call for long/harsh lockdowns if they later admit they were wrong. Anyone who maintains long/harsh lockdowns were the right thing to do loses my respect.

 

[initiation]

Where cancer and other treatments have been stopped it is in places where the NHS is struggling to cope with the surges in demand.

I would believe this IF last summer, when only a small number of people were in hospital with covid, treatments had returned to normal... Except they didn't. Hospitals were no where near overrun (remember there being the comments about multiple hospitals per patient) yet treatment was still consistently significantly below 100%.

 

[yorkie]

It may be true right now that some treatments are cancelled down to hospitals being too busy with Covid patients but for sure earlier in the year a lot of treatments were cancelled because of a perceived need to keep people out of hospitals to reduce the spread of the virus. I know people who were affected by this. But I think that's an argument that is more based on the past than the present.

 

[brad465]

Well we do know that many people have lost their jobs due to covid restrictions, we have learned recently that many more people are borrowing more to get by, we know hospital waiting lists are growing, so the only thing that is really being projected here is how many people are suffering depression as a result. But I would say its a reasonable bet that any combination of the above has a chance of people becoming resentful of the seemingly never ending restrictions. I've certainly witnessed first hand the results of these kinds of things previously in my career, and many of my colleagues continue to do so. What I am certain about is that trying to portray the UK population as being behind restrictions that for many a biting deep is naïve at best.

I do think the "shy Tory" phenomenon exists here, and this is something that the likes of YouGov may have failed to realise this time and thus leading to their polls suggesting mass support for restrictions, despite historically factoring in such concepts in standard election polling.

 

[Yew]

I do think the "shy Tory" phenomenon exists here, and this is something that the likes of YouGov may have failed to realise this time and thus leading to their polls suggesting mass support for restrictions, despite historically factoring in such concepts in standard election polling.

If the measures are so popular, surely we don't need undemocratic emergency legislation to compel us to do what they ask?

 

[Bantamzen]

I do think the "shy Tory" phenomenon exists here, and this is something that the likes of YouGov may have failed to realise this time and thus leading to their polls suggesting mass support for restrictions, despite historically factoring in such concepts in standard election polling.

Quite honestly I think it comes down to a fear factor. Its obvious that some people, both in social and professional circles feel unable to articulate how they are really coping, such is the efficiency of the government's approach to make people feel guilty. Not only are they made to feel guilty about going about their business, but are also made to feel guilty about not doing very well. "Don't you know there's a pandemic on?" or such like are often thrown in their faces whenever someone articulates any negative feelings to restrictions in many circles. "If people only obeyed the rules" often follows as if somehow this mantra were brought down from a mountain top on a slab of stone. And this guilt hangs around some people like chains, making almost impossible to articulate true feelings even amongst close friends and family.

Of course none of this is helped by a subset of people comfortably settled into their trenches, with few or no immediate worries, feeding off the media frenzy hand fed to them every day.

 

[Yew]

I'd be interested to know the average answer to the question "what percentage of people die after catching SARS-CoV-2?" If it were asked to a large subset of the population. I'd argue it'd be at least one order of magnitude out.

 

[philosopher]

I do think the "shy Tory" phenomenon exists here, and this is something that the likes of YouGov may have failed to realise this time and thus leading to their polls suggesting mass support for restrictions, despite historically factoring in such concepts in standard election polling.

I too suspect the polls overstate support for lockdowns. I do think the majority genuinely do support them, but the support is not as great as the polls make it out to be. I think with the polls, the issue may be that they have never likely asked such questions before so if there is a ‘shy Tory’ factor in the polls, the polling companies would not know how to correct for it.

 

[DB]

I'd be interested to know the average answer to the question "what percentage of people die after catching SARS-CoV-2?" If it were asked to a large subset of the population. I'd argue it'd be at least one order of magnitude out.

Yes, along with "what do you think the average age is of people who die with with Covid?"

 

[Yew]

I too suspect the polls overstate support for lockdowns. I do think the majority genuinely do support them, but the support is not as great as the polls make it out to be. I think with the polls, the issue may be that they have never likely asked such questions before so if there is a ‘shy Tory’ factor in the polls, the polling companies would not know how to correct for it.

I've certainly noticed an aspect of leading questioning In the polls I've responded to.

 

[initiation]

I'd be interested to know the average answer to the question "what percentage of people die after catching SARS-CoV-2?" If it were asked to a large subset of the population. I'd argue it'd be at least one order of magnitude out.

Your prediction is pretty much bang on.
Slightly different question but the mean average was people thought 7% of population had died from covid. That is skewed by a few answers so the median is lower but a clear majority of people thought more than 1% of the total population had died.
Of course the real answer is about 0.15% (if we ignore the from/with death issue).


Full fact link where they show the results and also explain why 7% isn't a completely fair number to use.

Why this poll gives a misleading view on how many people the public think Covid-19 has killed - Full Fact

By using a mean average, the results overstated what the average Brit thinks the death rate has been.

fullfact.org

This uses a mean average which isn’t appropriate in this context. Using the median, the average Brit thought that 1% of the GB population had died of Covid-19.

The true proportion of the British population who have died from Covid-19 is around 0.1%.

Yes, along with "what do you think the average age is of people who die with with Covid?"

Asked previously. As per this telegraph article the average answer was given as 65. Of course the real answer is low 80s (i.e. On par if not higher than normal life expectancy)

Public wrongly think average age of Covid death is 65, poll reveals

Savanta ComRes survey for Conservative Woman lays bare misconceptions around threat from virus pandemic

www.telegraph.co.uk

The public mistakenly think the average age of Covid deaths is 65 and that the virus is the UK's biggest killer, a poll has found....