"Covid rising in England" - let's stop the fear mongering

Mikw

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That
The symptoms described seem pretty mild though.

Should we stay off work from now to eternity if we have a headache or runny nose?

Coming from what (I think) is a similar political standpoint to @yorkie:

It's sensible staying off work with a fever or bad cough; it's fine to voluntarily stay off work with minor cold symptoms (perhaps because you believe, based on past experience, that the effort of work will exacerbate the symptoms and make you feel worse); but guilt-tripping people into not going into work with a headache or runny nose is quite another. We can't live in this guilt-ridden way from now to eternity; it's time to move on. And given that the UK has little or no in the way of actual legal restrictions, I'd say the feelings of guilt encouraged by some if you have minor cold-like symptoms is the number one problem we need to deal with.



I had what I think was a mild sinus infection at the back end of May. The symptoms (tiredness, blocked nose, "pressure" headaches which were worse when you leant down) were classic sinus so I suspect it was much more likely to have been that than Covid. I did also get pretty bad sinusitis in May 2009 (following a cold) so presumably I am somewhat pre-disposed to it.

(As it happens I was working from home anyway that week so the question did not arise...)
That is why we test, so we know what it is.
 
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nw1

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That is why we test, so we know what it is.

So should we all have to do constant testing every time we feel very slightly ill? And if positive, self isolate for 5, 7, 10 or 14 days, even if we feel better in 24 hours?

Quite frankly, life is going to be utterly miserable if we feel morally obliged to live like that for the next few years. And I really don't think that Covid is a big enough problem now to make living under constant threat of self-isolation necessary.

Why is Covid in 2022 (note - in 2022, not in 2020, I want to make that clear) so very much more serious than the 1999 flu (comparable death rate to Omicron), or the pandemics of 1968 and 1958 - or for that matter, the Spanish flu from mid-1920 onwards?

The ending of restrictions earlier this year is about the one and only thing I agree with this (otherwise terrible) government about, and surely it's now time to move on. I will ask the same question as I always do when discussing this: if we cannot move on now, then when? 2025? 2030?
 
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VauxhallandI

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So should we all have to do constant testing every time we feel very slightly ill? And if positive, self isolate for 5, 7, 10 or 14 days, even if we feel better in 24 hours?

Quite frankly, life is going to be utterly miserable if we feel morally obliged to live like that for the next few years. And I really don't think that Covid is a big enough problem now to make living under constant threat of self-isolation necessary.

Why is Covid in 2022 (note - in 2022, not in 2020, I want to make that clear) so very much more serious than the 1999 flu (comparable death rate to Omicron), or the pandemics of 1968 and 1958 - or for that matter, the Spanish flu from mid-1920 onwards?

The ending of restrictions earlier this year is about the one and only thing I agree with this (otherwise terrible) government about, and surely it's now time to move on. I will ask the same question as I always do when discussing this: if we cannot move on now, then when? 2025? 2030?
People like this don’t have an answer as their logic isn’t based on anything that is measurable. You wont get a straight response or one that is based in anything apart from fantasy usually based around an individuals feelings and they call others selfish ha!
 

Richard Scott

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That

That is why we test, so we know what it is.
Why? The Sars-CoV-2 virus isn't a big issue anymore; in my opinion it never was. This perpetuating talk of people who have immunity issues isn't helpful. Doing any of this is not helping them as there are numerous other pathogens out there that will cause them issues. That's not being callous, it's bring realistic.
 

Enthusiast

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That is why we test, so we know what it is.
Who are "we"? I don't know anybody who currently test themselves if they have the sniffles or a sore throat. In fact, I don't know anybody who has tested themselves at all, at least in the last twelve months. Apart from me and Mrs Enthusiast, that is. We needed to take a test last October to travel but certainly would not have done so otherwise. Oh, and my sister. She works in childcare and for some inexplicable reason her employers still insist she tests herself three times a week. What do you do in the event you test positive?
 

yorkie

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Or maybe it's that Twitter are unlikely to label those using reliable sources as misinformation. That tweet quoted a FT journalist reporting a pre-print from the then Public Health England. While immunity against severe disease wanes less than against infection, it's still present and for highly effective vaccines those small drops mean the breakthrough (1 - Vaccine Effectiveness) rate can increase considerably. In the paper the breakthrough rate doubled after 20 weeks compared with 10-14 weeks. It's now peer reviewed and published in the New England Journal of Medicine.
The term "breakthrough infection" is wrong. The fact that people in the medical field use it doesn't make it right.

Measuring vaccine effectiveness as protecting against infection may have been useful in the early days but is now an utterly absurd measure.

A leading virologist clarifies:

The term 'breakthrough infection' is wrong. Most human vaccines do NOT prevent infection. They prevent disease, which is what #COVID19 vaccines were tested for. It doesn't matter if infections occur, what matters is moderate to serious disease #dropbreakthrough

Unfortunately several people in the medical field are able to misuse their position as "scientists" to make claims which actual virologists and immunologists then have to debunk as bogus.

Trish Greenhalgh, along with various others with similar views, has a string of letters to her name. But she is mentally unstable and is often wrong about many things; she and her ilk misrepresent and mislead. They are obsessed with denying the effectiveness of vaccines in order to justify their restrictions; I find that to be irresponsible and dangerous.

The reality is you can get multiple medical experts in a room to discuss these topics and you would end up with a variety of answers.
 

Bikeman78

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So should we all have to do constant testing every time we feel very slightly ill? And if positive, self isolate for 5, 7, 10 or 14 days, even if we feel better in 24 hours?

Quite frankly, life is going to be utterly miserable if we feel morally obliged to live like that for the next few years. And I really don't think that Covid is a big enough problem now to make living under constant threat of self-isolation necessary.

Why is Covid in 2022 (note - in 2022, not in 2020, I want to make that clear) so very much more serious than the 1999 flu (comparable death rate to Omicron), or the pandemics of 1968 and 1958 - or for that matter, the Spanish flu from mid-1920 onwards?

The ending of restrictions earlier this year is about the one and only thing I agree with this (otherwise terrible) government about, and surely it's now time to move on. I will ask the same question as I always do when discussing this: if we cannot move on now, then when? 2025? 2030?
Most people have already moved on. One only has to go to shopping centres or city centres at weekends to see this. I suspect that the rising cost of energy and everyday essentials is of much greater concern to many people now.
 

gabrielhj07

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The measuring of covid deaths is a contentious issue. Countries measure it differently, in the UK it has to have been present in the 28 days prior to death while in Germany it is only recorded if it is the primary cause of death on the certificate.
 

Richard Scott

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Nope, no big deal at all. It's only killed around 100,000 people in Poland and caused the greatest loss of life since WW2. Not a big issue at all.
Please give evidence, killed them or died with it? How many were seriously ill anyway? Why pick on Polish figures? UK not dramatic enough?
Always room for lies, damn lies and statistics isn't there?
I'm sticking with original statement, in UK average age of death was around 82, which is above average life expectancy anyway.
 

MikeWM

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Nope, no big deal at all. It's only killed around 100,000 people in Poland and caused the greatest loss of life since WW2. Not a big issue at all.

Pandemics happen. Just like earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis. They're a part of the awful, glorious mess that is living on this planet.

What the last couple of years have shown us is while we can try to be 'clever', in the end we can't stop the inevitable, any more than we can stop an earhquake.

Hopefully we can let go of our hubris and accept that sometimes bad things just happen the next time something like this is thrown at us, and we don't destroy much of our society in a futile attempt to try to stop the unstoppable.
 

Cloud Strife

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Please give evidence, killed them or died with it? How many were seriously ill anyway. Always room for lies, damn lies and statistics. I'm sticking with original statement, in UK average age of death was around 82, which is above average life expectancy anyway.

How terribly tedious.

Hopefully we can let go of our hubris and accept that sometimes bad things just happen the next time something like this is thrown at us, and we don't destroy much of our society in a futile attempt to try to stop the unstoppable.

We haven't destroyed our society. In fact, the ones destroying the society are the ones who appear to be on some kind of crusade to deny people from things that might just help others.
 

gabrielhj07

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Pandemics happen. Just like earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis. They're a part of the awful, glorious mess that is living on this planet.

What the last couple of years have shown us is while we can try to be 'clever', in the end we can't stop the inevitable, any more than we can stop an earhquake.

Hopefully we can let go of our hubris and accept that sometimes bad things just happen the next time something like this is thrown at us, and we don't destroy much of our society in a futile attempt to try to stop the unstoppable.
A very sensible and considered post.
 

Richard Scott

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I don't do drama, which is why I don't buy into the hysteria about vaccines or regarding a mask as equal to a bomb on the theatre in Mariupol.
Well then explain why my post was tedious. Asked perfectly sensible questions, least you could do is answer them rather than make a silly statement.
 

Stephen42

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The term "breakthrough infection" is wrong. The fact that people in the medical field use it doesn't make it right.

Measuring vaccine effectiveness as protecting against infection may have been useful in the early days but is now an utterly absurd measure.

A leading virologist clarifies:



Unfortunately several people in the medical field are able to misuse their position as "scientists" to make claims which actual virologists and immunologists then have to debunk as bogus.

Trish Greenhalgh, along with various others with similar views, has a string of letters to her name. But she is mentally unstable and is often wrong about many things; she and her ilk misrepresent and mislead. They are obsessed with denying the effectiveness of vaccines in order to justify their restrictions; I find that to be irresponsible and dangerous.

The reality is you can get multiple medical experts in a room to discuss these topics and you would end up with a variety of answers.
Sorry my original post could have been clearer, the doubling I was quoting was the "breakthrough" rate against hospitalisation and have edited to reflect that. I personally prefer that to failure rates as it's unrealistic to expect 100% effectiveness and is more easily taken out of context.

Vaccine effectiveness can be measured across a variety of outcomes and is where feasible. Against infection is an important measure for population dynamics particularly viruses where there is a realistic chance of herd immunity. Covid isn't in that category, but it's still useful to track particularly where more moderate outcomes are harder to measure.
 

MikeWM

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We haven't destroyed our society. In fact, the ones destroying the society are the ones who appear to be on some kind of crusade to deny people from things that might just help others.

It felt pretty destroyed for a while back there when I was legally not allowed to leave my house without an 'excuse' for months on end. Schools were closed. Places of worship were closed. And then when we were finally allowed out, we 'had' to avoid socialising, being within 2 metres of other human beings, singing, dancing, seeing other people's faces, etc.

Fortunately, despite the continual efforts of the media, parts of the medical establishment and various politicians, we've somehow managed to bounce back to pretty close to 'normal' nevertheless.

But I think you need to elaborate - what things now are people trying to deny other people from having, and how is that destroying society?
 

Mikw

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Well, if i get symptoms i will test. Rather than going into work or going on a bus as i know how devastating it can be to someone with a compromised immuned system, i am one myself.
 

yorkie

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Sorry my original post could have been clearer, the doubling I was quoting was the "breakthrough" rate against hospitalisation and have edited to reflect that. I personally prefer that to failure rates as it's unrealistic to expect 100% effectiveness and is more easily taken out of context.
Ok that makes sense, thanks.
Vaccine effectiveness can be measured across a variety of outcomes and is where feasible. Against infection is an important measure for population dynamics particularly viruses where there is a realistic chance of herd immunity. Covid isn't in that category, but it's still useful to track particularly where more moderate outcomes are harder to measure.
Agreed; I was talking about Sars-CoV-2 specifically.

How terribly tedious
Some posts can be tedious but @Richard Scott's are never in that category; you may want to look closer to home. If you can post constructively, that would be very helpful, as otherwise there isn't much point in contributing to the debate.
We haven't destroyed our society. In fact, the ones destroying the society are the ones who appear to be on some kind of crusade to deny people from things that might just help others.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

Who is denying what to who?

I don't do drama, which is why I don't buy into the hysteria about vaccines or regarding a mask as equal to a bomb on the theatre in Mariupol.
I think this is in your imagination. Or maybe you are referring to something that's got nothing to do with the debate at hand or any of the views expressed on this forum.

Well, if i get symptoms i will test.
There is a very high chance your infection will be asymptomatic.
Rather than going into work or going on a bus as i know how devastating it can be to someone with a compromised immuned system, i am one myself.
Unfortunately you cannot prevent yourself passing it on because if you only test when you have symptoms, many infections will go undetected. Furthermore, we still don't have a test to determine if someone is infectious or not.

Everyone is going to be exposed to Sars-CoV-2, multiple times, in their lifetimes, along with many other commonly circulating viruses. That includes people with compromised immune systems.

If anyone with a compromised immune system wishes to take additional precautions, that is their prerogative. Certain precautions may delay exposure to Sars-CoV-2 but it is not practicable to prevent it.

It felt pretty destroyed for a while back there when I was legally not allowed to leave my house without an 'excuse' for months on end. Schools were closed. Places of worship were closed. And then when we were finally allowed out, we 'had' to avoid socialising, being within 2 metres of other human beings, singing, dancing, seeing other people's faces, etc.
I completely agree.
Fortunately, despite the continual efforts of the media, parts of the medical establishment and various politicians, we've somehow managed to bounce back to pretty close to 'normal' nevertheless.
Indeed; it's shocking that some people want to deny us some of the freedoms we had to fight so hard to win back. Despite huge numbers of what are mostly very mild/asymptomatic infections, ICU and HDU admissions remain around their lowest level since June 2021 and our immunity to Sars-CoV-2 increasing all the time.
 
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DustyBin

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Everyone is going to be exposed to Sars-CoV-2, multiple times, in their lifetimes, along with many other commonly circulating viruses. That includes people with compromised immune systems.

Why some people refuse to accept this is beyond me.
 

Simon11

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Well, if i get symptoms i will test. Rather than going into work or going on a bus as i know how devastating it can be to someone with a compromised immuned system, i am one myself.

With the mind set of wanting to protect everyone with a compromised immune system, I therefore presume that you will be take hundreds of tests to ensure you don't have covid plus all the more harmful viruses, polio, monkey-pox along with a million of other viruses that may cause harm? Even better, why not do it daily, to ensure that you are not asymptotic! Good luck with sourcing, paying for these tests and making sure it doesn't impact our lovely planet.

We have to continue as we did before the pandemic and if you feel unwell, stay at home and recover. Absolutely no need to test and if it isn't covid, go merrily on your way!
 

greyman42

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With the mind set of wanting to protect everyone with a compromised immune system, I therefore presume that you will be take hundreds of tests to ensure you don't have covid plus all the more harmful viruses, polio, monkey-pox along with a million of other viruses that may cause harm? Even better, why not do it daily, to ensure that you are not asymptotic! Good luck with sourcing, paying for these tests and making sure it doesn't impact our lovely planet.

We have to continue as we did before the pandemic and if you feel unwell, stay at home and recover. Absolutely no need to test and if it isn't covid, go merrily on your way!
Perfect response to that ridiculous statement.
 

nw1

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We haven't destroyed our society. In fact, the ones destroying the society are the ones who appear to be on some kind of crusade to deny people from things that might just help others.

We haven't destroyed our society, but one possible argument is that over-prolonged and over-severe lockdowns have contributed in no small measure to the economic problems we have found ourselves in now.
 

Eyersey468

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We haven't destroyed our society, but one possible argument is that over-prolonged and over-severe lockdowns have contributed in no small measure to the economic problems we have found ourselves in now.
And it was very predictable, yet those of us who were warning of it were getting vilified on social media. Those who called us covidiots etc are now those who are moaning loudest about the situation we are in.
 

Mikw

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Perfect response to that ridiculous statement.
Perhaps you'd take that up with my specialist.....

No need to say it's "ridiculous" if you don't like something.

For the record, i'm not advocating a return to mentally and economical damaging lockdowns, just being careful if you have symptoms. A simple test, while not perfect, will tell you if you're symptoms are hayfever/common cold (not as damaging) or Covid.

Hardly "ridiculous".

I know it's simple to pidgeonhole people, but i'm not some fearful lockdown merchant, just someone who tries to see things from all sides.
 

VauxhallandI

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It’s like being a goalkeeper facing 100 free kick machines and saving one shot whilst the other 99 hit the back of the net.

Everyone will get it what is so difficult to understand? You’re protective measures are a sop to your own virtue. You are doing no one any favours especially yourself.
 

greyman42

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For the record, i'm not advocating a return to mentally and economical damaging lockdowns, just being careful if you have symptoms. A simple test, while not perfect, will tell you if you're symptoms are hayfever/common cold (not as damaging) or Covid.
I was not aware that any such test existed?
How long are you planning to carry on like this?
 

Mikw

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It’s like being a goalkeeper facing 100 free kick machines and saving one shot whilst the other 99 hit the back of the net.

Everyone will get it what is so difficult to understand? You’re protective measures are a sop to your own virtue. You are doing no one any favours especially yourself.
I present a radio programme and we do a health phone in on then. heard some awful stories regarding those in the clinically extremely vulnerable group. Stories to make you weep.

It's better to avoid getting it if possible, and the jabs certainly help to mitigate it in most cases.

On specialist advice i wear a proper medical grade mask where there's poor ventilation, or in crowded areas, and take a test if showing symptoms. family and friends do the same too.

Can't legislate for those who chose to go out with symptoms though, it's their choice and their right.

Like i said i'm against further lockdowns. They were pretty essential before vaccination, not least because "Better Care Together" was mothballing wards and scaling down hospitals, leading to a shortage of beds. With common sense, they're not needed now.

The messaging hasn't helped, with contrary advice throughout and people being led to believe the vaccine was a "magic bullet". Vaccines never have been, but they help substantially, and we'll live with this for a long time.

Despite medical conditions i'm back at work and back on the rails and living my best life possible, and relying on others to be sensible. It's all you can do.
 

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