Crayonista: South of London Orbital via North Downs

[Minstral25]

I was reading about an abortive proposal to build a South of London Orbital railway and suddenly realised there is one already there that probably just needs right equipment to set up.

There are services from Strood to Paddock Wood via Maidstone extended to Tonbridge part of the day. Then Tonbridge to Redhill services and the Redhill to Reading services. It seems ripe for them to be joined up. A Strood to Reading service every hour.

It seems this could be done without much infrastructure work but the issue is probably lack of Diesel Rolling stock to operate as there are shortages everywhere.

However perhaps the driver for this service is new rolling stock, the new Stadler Flirts electro-diesels bi-modes could be this. A three car version with high acceleration on electric mode (less so on Diesel probably) could run the service. An hourly Strood to Reading all stations service – picking up the Tonbridge Redhill service and the Redhill to Reading stopper. Additional Strood to Redhill services could be run in the peak to make the service half-hourly.

The benefit of new units could extend to the whole North Downs with the same new units taking over Reading to Gatwick Services utilising third rail where possible, potentially creating opportunities then include to extend service to Brighton or Crawley. Also, these units could take over the Marshlink and Uckfield services.

All of this would release many DMU’s for operation elsewhere and stop using diesels over electrified track, plus a few EMU’s would also be released for strengthening other services.

I’m guessing in line with other new stock a new depot would be needed, there is space at Redhill in the tringle between the quarry, Tonbridge and main lines and it is naturally in the middle of most of the services.

Is this a good idea or just Crayonista dreaming on a Sunday afternoon?

 

[JonathanH]

The problem with the North Downs Line and even more so the Redhill to Strood route as a South London Orbital is that it is too far out of London to be useful and at the eastern end really doesn't go where people want to go.

The point about the M25 is that people using it are travelling between loads of small offices and no ones journey is the same. Those offices and other places of work are at a low density and the railway is all about linking high density locations.

The next orbital route into London inside the M25 is the one broadly followed by the X26 / 119 / 269 buses. It isn't clear to me that something on this route would have been a game changer.

Let's hope that 2tph Reading to Gatwick increases custom. I don't know what the answer is with Redhill to Tonbridge - the custom isn't that great outside commuting hours (and even then isn't that material). Connecting up the stopping trains either side of Redhill just isn't going to make a difference.

Linking Maidstone to the North Kent lines via Strood is probably the answer for that line.

 

[Clip]

Surely the idea of an orbital railway is that it goes round something?? How does this one do that when it goes Reading and back?

 

[NorthKent1989]

You could double run from Strood onto Gillingham and maybe down to Canterbury East, probably run this service largely skip stop too but, not sure if this is feasible, its a good idea though and I fully support more cross-county inter-urban rails services, not serving London.

 

[furnessvale]

When there was a cross country from Stockport to Brighton I used to use it and change south of London when travelling to Dover/Folkestone rather than cross London. It was slower but so much more pleasant.

 

[59CosG95]

It's worth mentioning at this point that in the early 90's, when the Class 92s were being commissioned, that Railfreight Distribution paid for the Redhill-Tonbridge Line's electrification at 750V DC; not sure 92's ever took the route west from Tonbridge though (probably put paid to by problems with interference from the AC equipment on the locos).
[Crayonista mode]
Perhaps, if the North Downs line were to be electrified (Reigate to Shalford Jct, then Aldershot South Jct to Wokingham) at 750V DC, dual-voltage locos on GWML-bound freight could have a second London Avoider?
The Guildford Tunnels (St. Catherine's & Guildford Chalk) might be an obstacle for container clearances, but if foresight was given to 25kV re-electrification in the distant future, two birds could be killed with one stone.
Of course, for its full potential to be reached, one has to assume that more of the GWML (and associated northbound freight corridors to the WCML et al) will get wired...
[/Crayonista mode]

 

[B&I]

It never ceases to amaze me how few lines there are in the Home Counties, apart from arterial routes in an our of London. Surely there is at least potentially a fair amount if traffic between medium-sized south east towns, many of which have a lot of white collar jobs? If Beeching had not butchered the Great Northern, people like me would be suggesting a Watford - Hertford orbital or something like that, stitching together the various east-west running lines around there.

At the risk of going Full Crayola, is there any practical way these services could be linked directly to Gatwick, which would provide a major draw an route? I assume the Brighton Main Line is too full to have (for example) a Brighton-Gatwick-Reading or Brighton-Gatwick-north Kent service

 

[RichJF]

Redhill needs to be resignalled & remodelled to incorporate the OP's suggestions & current Thameslink/Southern frequencies.
The southern end signalling needs to be sorted and tracks remodelled to fully utilise the station's capacity with all platforms as through platforms (not the current platform 0 farce).

There was talk a few years back of constructing a flyover between the Tonbridge & North Downs line to allow freight/longer distance passenger to avoid reversing at Redhill: This would create a true orbital potential. Don't know how far this has been developed or if indeed, at all!

In another way I genuinely think it'd be worthwhile creating 1tph Reading - Ashford service that replaces a stopping SE mainline service through Kent & a 1 tph Victoria - Tunbridge Wells (via Redhill) 8 car service that replaces one of the current SE TW services.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I was reading about an abortive proposal to build a South of London Orbital railway and suddenly realised there is one already there that probably just needs right equipment to set up.

There are services from Strood to Paddock Wood via Maidstone extended to Tonbridge part of the day. Then Tonbridge to Redhill services and the Redhill to Reading services. It seems ripe for them to be joined up. A Strood to Reading service every hour.

It seems this could be done without much infrastructure work but the issue is probably lack of Diesel Rolling stock to operate as there are shortages everywhere.

However perhaps the driver for this service is new rolling stock, the new Stadler Flirts electro-diesels bi-modes could be this. A three car version with high acceleration on electric mode (less so on Diesel probably) could run the service. An hourly Strood to Reading all stations service – picking up the Tonbridge Redhill service and the Redhill to Reading stopper. Additional Strood to Redhill services could be run in the peak to make the service half-hourly.

The benefit of new units could extend to the whole North Downs with the same new units taking over Reading to Gatwick Services utilising third rail where possible, potentially creating opportunities then include to extend service to Brighton or Crawley. Also, these units could take over the Marshlink and Uckfield services.

All of this would release many DMU’s for operation elsewhere and stop using diesels over electrified track, plus a few EMU’s would also be released for strengthening other services.

I’m guessing in line with other new stock a new depot would be needed, there is space at Redhill in the tringle between the quarry, Tonbridge and main lines and it is naturally in the middle of most of the services.

Is this a good idea or just Crayonista dreaming on a Sunday afternoon?

In the good old days, you had the half-hourly Strood to Maidstone West and the hourly Maidstone West to London Bridge. In real terms, the demand probably exists for a half-hourly service to Redhill from Tonbridge if only to allow 'journey opportunities'.

In the new franchise they suggest running the service from Strood to Tonbridge half-hourly but only going to Paddock Wood bay in peaks due to the track layout at Tonbridge not being conducive to through running. That said, Monday to Saturday off-peak and evenings going through would be jolly nice.

If Southern could be convinced, you could joint operate 377s from Victoria to Maidstone West every half an hour and use the 'third' North Downs service an hour and ask Reigate passengers to change at Redhill during the day. Then run the Maidstone West service as an extension of a Gravesend service via Sidcup. Sounds daft but the demand doesn't really exist to go across from 'North' to 'South' (e.g. Strood to Tonbridge) but is mostly centred on the two sections independently with people going to/from Maidstone. The only misery is Maidstone Barracks is better to get to Maidstone East.

Anyway; I'd ask for the following:

-2tph Charing Cross to Maidstone West via Sidcup (the new off-peak service from May is fast from London Bridge to New Eltham and of course Strood is the changing point for Thameslink and High Speed)
-2tph Maidstone West to London Victoria/Bridge (use of Southern and Southeastern 377s and crew inter-working as now; preferable to go to London Bridge so as not to conflict at Selhurst)
-1tph Reading to Gatwick Airport fast (operated by Southern)
-1tph Reading to Gatwick Airport semi-fast (operated by Southern)
-1tph Reading to Guildford slow (operated by SWR/GWR)
-1tph Guildford to Redhill slow (Southern 171s)

Reason for choosing to split the Reading to Redhill slow is that if it is every lamp post it will be caught by the Gatwick fast one.

 

[MarkyT]

Redhill needs to be resignalled & remodelled to incorporate the OP's suggestions & current Thameslink/Southern frequencies.
The southern end signalling needs to be sorted and tracks remodelled to fully utilise the station's capacity with all platforms as through platforms (not the current platform 0 farce).

There was talk a few years back of constructing a flyover between the Tonbridge & North Downs line to allow freight/longer distance passenger to avoid reversing at Redhill: This would create a true orbital potential. Don't know how far this has been developed or if indeed, at all!

In another way I genuinely think it'd be worthwhile creating 1tph Reading - Ashford service that replaces a stopping SE mainline service through Kent & a 1 tph Victoria - Tunbridge Wells (via Redhill) 8 car service that replaces one of the current SE TW services.

Yes Redhill South will need further work at some time to fully exploit the three platforms on the up side. I don't agree #1 as a bay is a 'farce' as you put it. It is a sensible compromise given the constraints of the site as I explained in the Redhill thread.

As to Flyovers if such a structure was constructed predominantly for direct freight traffic between Ashford and Reading, then an additional ramp might be constructed on the up side as shown in blue. This could allow your Reading - Ashford trains to reverse in both directions, and up trains from Tonbridge to London to access #0 with reduced conflict.

 

[JonathanH]

No chance of a flyover or any elevated track at Redhill getting past the local MP / nimbys / anyone else in Redhill with a vested interest regardless of its strategic importance.

More to the point, I don't see how you would build ramps for it that could be used for freight trains on the western side as there isn't much spare land either side of the railway once past the A25 bridge.

Then you have Reigate where the level crossing is already an issue. I don't know whether a tunnel portal could be built alongside Maderia Walk where there does appear to be some land in the deep cutting.
http://maps.reigate-banstead.gov.uk/myrdrbbc.aspx

This is where upgrading current lines simply doesn't work and new build is better. Think HS2.

 

[NorthKent1989]

In the good old days, you had the half-hourly Strood to Maidstone West and the hourly Maidstone West to London Bridge. In real terms, the demand probably exists for a half-hourly service to Redhill from Tonbridge if only to allow 'journey opportunities'.

In the new franchise they suggest running the service from Strood to Tonbridge half-hourly but only going to Paddock Wood bay in peaks due to the track layout at Tonbridge not being conducive to through running. That said, Monday to Saturday off-peak and evenings going through would be jolly nice.

If Southern could be convinced, you could joint operate 377s from Victoria to Maidstone West every half an hour and use the 'third' North Downs service an hour and ask Reigate passengers to change at Redhill during the day. Then run the Maidstone West service as an extension of a Gravesend service via Sidcup. Sounds daft but the demand doesn't really exist to go across from 'North' to 'South' (e.g. Strood to Tonbridge) but is mostly centred on the two sections independently with people going to/from Maidstone. The only misery is Maidstone Barracks is better to get to Maidstone East.

Anyway; I'd ask for the following:

-2tph Charing Cross to Maidstone West via Sidcup (the new off-peak service from May is fast from London Bridge to New Eltham and of course Strood is the changing point for Thameslink and High Speed)
-2tph Maidstone West to London Victoria/Bridge (use of Southern and Southeastern 377s and crew inter-working as now; preferable to go to London Bridge so as not to conflict at Selhurst)
-1tph Reading to Gatwick Airport fast (operated by Southern)
-1tph Reading to Gatwick Airport semi-fast (operated by Southern)
-1tph Reading to Guildford slow (operated by SWR/GWR)
-1tph Guildford to Redhill slow (Southern 171s)

Reason for choosing to split the Reading to Redhill slow is that if it is every lamp post it will be caught by the Gatwick fast one.

As for the Maidstone West to London via Gravesend, there has been some talk of such a service from 2022, but via Abbey Wood rather than Sidcup as you suggested, the Abbey Wood route would be better as Maidstone residents can have a Crossrail interchange, not to mention other TfL interchanges on the North Kent line.

I would like to see a return of the former London to Strood dividing to form a Gillingham portion and a Maidstone West portion service, I keep saying this but Maidstone deserves a much better rail service not just to London but to other parts of the South East.

I personally would love to see a Canterbury East to Brighton semi fast service, calling Faversham, Medway Towns, Strood
Fast to Maidstone West, Tonbridge, Redhill then all stations to Brighton.

How about an outer orbital service from Ashford International to Southampton via the Coastway lines?

 

[JonathanH]

As for the Maidstone West to London via Gravesend, there has been some talk of such a service from 2022, but via Abbey Wood rather than Sidcup as you suggested, the Abbey Wood route would be better as Maidstone residents can have a Crossrail interchange, not to mention other TfL interchanges on the North Kent line.

That is a reasonably sound idea.

I would like to see a return of the former London to Strood dividing to form a Gillingham portion and a Maidstone West portion service, I keep saying this but Maidstone deserves a much better rail service not just to London but to other parts of the South East.

It the time cost from portion working really better than having to make your own interchange at Strood.

I personally would love to see a Canterbury East to Brighton semi fast service, calling Faversham, Medway Towns, Strood
Fast to Maidstone West, Tonbridge, Redhill then all stations to Brighton.

That is barmy - the 101 bus is a perfectly good way of getting from Medway to Maidstone. Canterbury to Brighton is quicker via Ashford. The problem with the Maidstone West line is the big bend it takes in the middle to serve Maidstone and follow the river. It just isn't quick end to end - I don't see what journeys would be made more attractive by this and there are already 7tph between Gillingham and Rochester.

How about an outer orbital service from Ashford International to Southampton via the Coastway lines?

Already exists - it is just that you have to change in Hastings (from May 2018) and Brighton - it doesn't make good use of capacity at Brighton to have through services across the station throat as discussed many times on this forum.

 

[MarkyT]

No chance of a flyover or any elevated track at Redhill getting past the local MP / nimbys / anyone else in Redhill with a vested interest regardless of its strategic importance.

Probably right about the local politics

More to the point, I don't see how you would build ramps for it that could be used for freight trains on the western side as there isn't much spare land either side of the railway once past the A25 bridge.

Double track flyover. Flat single lead junctions for the turnouts to Redhill station from east and west. A small rise to get over the Brighton line, which could be dipped a bit to accomodate as well...

Then you have Reigate where the level crossing is already an issue.

That is the most significant constraint I agree, and there are other crossings between Reigate and Guildford that are problematic too, but which might be more practical to replace by grade separation though. If we're looking for a high capacity east-west freight corridor, probably best to tunnel right under the troublesome Reigate /Redhill area!


Next problem: Guildford area...

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The Maidstone West to London via Abbey Wood service only exists if the operator does not provide a through service from Maidstone West to St Pancras - i.e. they get to choose whether to route 4tph High Speed down to Faversham and the Coast or 2tph to the Coast, 2tph to the Muddy Valley. In the former scenario you then offer 2tph from Maidstone to Cannon St / Charing X.

To be honest, given the nature of the beast and the fact that Crossrail will be accessible on the half-hourly Gillingham/Rainham to Luton via Abbey Wood, I as the bid team for the new franchise would indeed go for the Maidstone West to Charing Cross / Cannon Street option. The Kent Coast 395s are usually very busy and thus you could boost that.

EDIT: Having checked the appendix for train service specification, it is clear that it is acceptable to do 4tph St Pancras - Kent Coast and therefore 2tph Cannon Street - Maidstone West would also work. Would be pretty grand to see some 8 car 375/9s / 8 car 465s with SDO sprinting up and down the Muddy Valley.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Maidstone West to London via Abbey Wood service only exists if the operator does not provide a through service from Maidstone West to St Pancras - i.e. they get to choose whether to route 4tph High Speed down to Faversham and the Coast or 2tph to the Coast, 2tph to the Muddy Valley. In the former scenario you then offer 2tph from Maidstone to Cannon St / Charing X.

To be honest, given the nature of the beast and the fact that Crossrail will be accessible on the half-hourly Gillingham/Rainham to Luton via Abbey Wood, I as the bid team for the new franchise would indeed go for the Maidstone West to Charing Cross / Cannon Street option. The Kent Coast 395s are usually very busy and thus you could boost that.

EDIT: Having checked the appendix for train service specification, it is clear that it is acceptable to do 4tph St Pancras - Kent Coast and therefore 2tph Cannon Street - Maidstone West would also work. Would be pretty grand to see some 8 car 375/9s / 8 car 465s with SDO sprinting up and down the Muddy Valley.

Of course they'd have to lengthen the platforms at Aylesford, New Hythe and Snodland am I correct?

Although circuitous a Maidstone to CS/CX would be (most likely Cannon Street given the specification mentioned that all North Kent line services will be heading to that terminal only) it would be a great service and a great upgrade for Maidstone, being connected to
Crossrail, DLR other SE London centres such as Woolwich, Lewisham, Greenwich and the o2 Centre.

The Canterbury to Brighton service was a massive crayonista job, far too much double running for one thing would end such a service in reality.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Well if Thameslink ran via Sole Street and Denmark Hill (preferable to a major conflicting movement at North Kent East Jn) and replaced the existing slow Victoria train, you could seek to offer a couple of improved services in the Southeastern franchise in the peak hours.

Namely, of course, to offer direct connections from the Medway towns to Lewisham, Abbey Wood, Greenwich, Woolwich Arsenal and then London terminals. I personally would use a Maidstone West to Cannon Street and a Gillingham to Cannon Street; with 12 car trains. You could probably hope to achieve a running time of 1h25 from Cannon Street to Maidstone West; or about 55 mins from Abbey Wood. Would it be that competitive? Who knows. It's 55 or so minutes from St Pancras to Maidstone West.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Well if Thameslink ran via Sole Street and Denmark Hill (preferable to a major conflicting movement at North Kent East Jn) and replaced the existing slow Victoria train, you could seek to offer a couple of improved services in the Southeastern franchise in the peak hours.

Namely, of course, to offer direct connections from the Medway towns to Lewisham, Abbey Wood, Greenwich, Woolwich Arsenal and then London terminals. I personally would use a Maidstone West to Cannon Street and a Gillingham to Cannon Street; with 12 car trains. You could probably hope to achieve a running time of 1h25 from Cannon Street to Maidstone West; or about 55 mins from Abbey Wood. Would it be that competitive? Who knows. It's 55 or so minutes from St Pancras to Maidstone West.

I agree with this.

The Rainham Thameslink service is going to cause issues in the future you may as well run Charing Cross trains from the Greenwich line again.

Not to mention the fact that it will majorly slow down services from Medway.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I agree with this.

The Rainham Thameslink service is going to cause issues in the future you may as well run Charing Cross trains from the Greenwich line again.

Not to mention the fact that it will majorly slow down services from Medway.

The reality is that in the new franchise, the off-peak service from Victoria to Ramsgate and Dover is half-hourly only, and calls at ALL stations to Rochester from Swanley! So even the Kent Coast guys are getting a worse, slower service.

The Thameslink service should be a direct replacement of what used to be the Victoria to Faversham stopper; albeit running as a Thameslink to Rainham stopper via Denmark Hill. All you have to do is get it to present at the Core a few minutes ahead of the Sevenoaks / Orpington trains.

 

[backontrack]

A direct service from North Kent and Medway to Lakeside/Chafford Hundred could be a useful part of it...as well as possibly serving Camberley...

 

[NorthKent1989]

The reality is that in the new franchise, the off-peak service from Victoria to Ramsgate and Dover is half-hourly only, and calls at ALL stations to Rochester from Swanley! So even the Kent Coast guys are getting a worse, slower service.

The Thameslink service should be a direct replacement of what used to be the Victoria to Faversham stopper; albeit running as a Thameslink to Rainham stopper via Denmark Hill. All you have to do is get it to present at the Core a few minutes ahead of the Sevenoaks / Orpington trains.

I thought they were going to have the Ramsgate service run fast from Rochester to Bromley South, and that the Sheerness service would be all stops and the Dover service would be all stops except
Sole Street, Farningham Road & St. Mary's Cray?

However if what you say true then yes the Kent Coast will indeed have an even slower service than now, however you'll always get people saying. "you can always hop on the HS1" as a justification -_-

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I agree with this.

The Rainham Thameslink service is going to cause issues in the future you may as well run Charing Cross trains from the Greenwich line again.

I don't think that is possible with the new track layout. My understanding was there is basically no realistic way now for trains to get from Greenwich to the Charing Cross lines.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There was talk a few years back of constructing a flyover between the Tonbridge & North Downs line to allow freight/longer distance passenger to avoid reversing at Redhill: This would create a true orbital potential. Don't know how far this has been developed or if indeed, at all!

While that may be good for freight, the problem for orbital passenger services is that, short of completely rebuilding Redhill station a bit further South, that would make it impossible for orbital trains to call at Redhill. That kills a huge range of potentially useful interchanges - to get to Croydon, Gatwich Airport, Brighton, Crawley, etc., which would at a stroke remove a lot of potential passengers for an orbital line!

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The problem with the North Downs Line and even more so the Redhill to Strood route as a South London Orbital is that it is too far out of London to be useful and at the eastern end really doesn't go where people want to go.

I'd kinda agree with this. East of Guildford, the line just doesn't go through the kind of big cities that you'd want it to serve to make an orbital railway worthwhile. You also have a problem at Redhill that most demand is going to be for passengers to go North or South from there. A train that goes Guildford-Redhill Tonbridge is potentially preventing other trains from going Guildford-Redhill-Gatwick Airport or London-Redhill-Tonbridge - and I suspect those trains would serve many more people.

Having said that, at present, you have to change at both Redhill and Tonbridge to make any orbital journeys along the route in that area, and frequencies are pretty rubbish. That must suppress demand a bit, and maybe if those changes weren't there, an orbital service would attract some custom.

If I was going to do something like this, I'd probably take the crayons a bit further East: Rebuild Maidstone Barracks station a bit further North so it can have platforms on the line through Maidstone East as well. Then build a link just north of Cuxton station between the Maidstone-Strood and the Rochester-Swanley lines that would allow trains from Maidstone to get to Rochester without reversing at Strood. Then perhaps you could run a half-hourly service Rainham-Rochester-Maidstone-Tonbridge-Redhill-Gatwick Airport. If connections at Redhill with the Reading service were reasonable, perhaps that would serve reasonably well as an orbital route?

 

[MarkyT]

I'd kinda agree with this. East of Guildford, the line just doesn't go through the kind of big cities that you'd want it to serve to make an orbital railway worthwhile. You also have a problem at Redhill that most demand is going to be for passengers to go North or South from there. A train that goes Guildford-Redhill Tonbridge is potentially preventing other trains from going Guildford-Redhill-Gatwick Airport or London-Redhill-Tonbridge - and I suspect those trains would serve many more people.

Having said that, at present, you have to change at both Redhill and Tonbridge to make any orbital journeys along the route in that area, and frequencies are pretty rubbish. That must suppress demand a bit, and maybe if those changes weren't there, an orbital service would attract some custom.

If I was going to do something like this, I'd probably take the crayons a bit further East: Rebuild Maidstone Barracks station a bit further North so it can have platforms on the line through Maidstone East as well. Then build a link just north of Cuxton station between the Maidstone-Strood and the Rochester-Swanley lines that would allow trains from Maidstone to get to Rochester without reversing at Strood. Then perhaps you could run a half-hourly service Rainham-Rochester-Maidstone-Tonbridge-Redhill-Gatwick Airport. If connections at Redhill with the Reading service were reasonable, perhaps that would serve reasonably well as an orbital route?

There was a Maidstone - Gatwick - Horsham service in Connex days I recall. Perhaps with less traffic on the Tonbridge line now and changes at Redhill it could be reintroduced. I like the Cuxton - Rochester connection. Maybe Diggerland Kent could loan some of their earth moving machinery to grade an alignment through their property!

 

[NorthKent1989]

I think a regional, non London service to Gatwick would be what the
London & South East region needs ie A Gatwick to Kentish towns service even at a minimum of 1tph, it would probably reduce the need for Heathrow and might balance out both airports as important hubs, what with the proposed Heathrow expansion issue as well.

That said while Heathrow is within the "London boundary" it isn't as well connected in terms of railways, There's The existing Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect (the Heathrow Connect is going to be absorbed into Crossrail and the future of the Heathrow Express I in doubt dur to Crossrail) Crossrail itself and the Piccadilly line which lets face it will only be useful to those who live local to Heathrow after this year.

Gatwick is connected to the South West, Berkshire, London on both sides of the river due to Thameslink and a very loose connection with Kent, plus the fact that unlike the Heathrow Express, The Gatwick Express's future isn't in doubt.

Perhaps Gatwick should be expanded and should replace Heathrow as London's main Airport or at least an equal first.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There was a Maidstone - Gatwick - Horsham service in Connex days I recall. Perhaps with less traffic on the Tonbridge line now and changes at Redhill it could be reintroduced. I like the Cuxton - Rochester connection. Maybe Diggerland Kent could loan some of their earth moving machinery to grade an alignment through their property!
View attachment 42627

Now trying to work out whether the 'I like' comment was genuine or being facetious - given you accompanied it with a diagram showing gradients would be a problem.

 

[MarkyT]

Now trying to work out whether the 'I like' comment was genuine or being facetious - given you accompanied it with a diagram showing gradients would be a problem.

Pretty steep, but perhaps manageable with modern stock. Looks like about 20m rise over about 1km, so average 2%. The vertical transition and junction with the Sole Street line at the top could be difficult though

 

[NorthKent1989]

I don't think that is possible with the new track layout. My understanding was there is basically no realistic way now for trains to get from Greenwich to the Charing Cross lines.

Very occasionally if there are engineering works at Cannon Street then Greenwich trains could run into Charing Cross, probably at a reduced frequency.

This was more about conflicting moves at North Kent Junction which the Rainham Thameslink service will cause.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There was a Maidstone - Gatwick - Horsham service in Connex days I recall. Perhaps with less traffic on the Tonbridge line now and changes at Redhill it could be reintroduced. I like the Cuxton - Rochester connection. Maybe Diggerland Kent could loan some of their earth moving machinery to grade an alignment through their property!
View attachment 42627

Now this was something mooted a while ago and one which would arguably work well. The suggestion was that the majority of people from say Maidstone would need to go to Rochester or Chatham more than they would Strood; and in the event that you have both the existing route to Strood and the new route across Rochester Bridge you're 'sorted'. The peak services direct to London could continue to operate; whilst off-peak services could run into any of Gillingham, Rainham, Faversham or Canterbury East.