Creating a class 48

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cowley

Established Member
Associate Staff
General Discussion
Railtours & Preservation
Modelling & Games
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
10,290
Location
Devon
Apologies if this has been covered anywhere else, I am fairly new to the forum. I was wondering if anyone had ever considered converting one of the preserved 47s into a class 48 to recreate a missing class that not many people will have experienced? The 12LVA24 power units I think were resold to SNCF for use in the 68000 class so there must be some around still. Does anyone remember them in service? 47117 at the GCR was a class 48 I believe. While we're at it how about putting a Mirrlees JVS12T back into one of the many preserved 31s and recreating a class 30? Just a bit of fun, don't worry GCR.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Nippy

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2013
Messages
538
One of my work colleagues wanted to get 47114 with the the sole aim of creating a Class 48 but couldn't raise enough cash/interest.
 

Cowley

Established Member
Associate Staff
General Discussion
Railtours & Preservation
Modelling & Games
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
10,290
Location
Devon
Interesting. Did he know where to get a power unit? I expect there would have been a few modifications needed, not sure how many though.
 

markindurham

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2011
Messages
325
There was a reason why BR re-engined the Class 48s to make them 47s. (ditto with converting the 30s into 31s...). Good luck if you want to go ahead with such a project, but as Nippy points out, someone has already had a look at it and realised that the interest (and, more importantly, the cash) seemingly wasn't there.

What would you gain, anyway? Not having a dig, just curious :)
 

trash80

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2015
Messages
1,204
Location
Birches Green
Well i suppose its the "easy" way to add a lost class to preservation (certainly compared to a new build!)

It would be interesting to hear a 48 (and a 30), familiar shape but unfamilar sound.
 

Nippy

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2013
Messages
538
Interesting. Did he know where to get a power unit? I expect there would have been a few modifications needed, not sure how many though.

To be honest, I don't know. His first thought was to save 114. There may be power units in France somewhere?
 

Cowley

Established Member
Associate Staff
General Discussion
Railtours & Preservation
Modelling & Games
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
10,290
Location
Devon
There was a reason why BR re-engined the Class 48s to make them 47s. (ditto with converting the 30s into 31s...). Good luck if you want to go ahead with such a project, but as Nippy points out, someone has already had a look at it and realised that the interest (and, more importantly, the cash) seemingly wasn't there.

What would you gain, anyway? Not having a dig, just curious :)

Not taken as a dig, they're good points, I didn't know about the plan with 47114.
As Trash80 said, its a simple way of creating new classes that certainly would sound different to what's around at the moment. I'm not saying I want to get this off the ground but I would chip in and would certainly try and get a run behind either type at a diesel gala as I'm sure many others would. When it comes to reliability they don't come with a worse reputation than classes 15, 23 and 28 which personally I can't wait to see and hear running.
When you look at the lengths being gone to to recreate some of the lost GWR types at the moment it puts it into perspective, joe public probably couldn't tell the difference between a Hall, Manor, Saint, Grange, County etc, yet the County, Saint and Grange are coming together because of the enthusiasm of the people dedicated to filling in the lost gaps in steam preservation while they have a chance, if you take the County, the P2 and Duke of Gloucester they weren't particularly successful the first time round either but modern technology has improved things.
 
Last edited:

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
5,541
When you look at the lengths being gone to to recreate some of the lost GWR types at the moment it puts it into perspective, joe public probably couldn't tell the difference between a Hall, Manor, Saint, Grange, County etc, yet the County, Saint and Grange are coming together because of the enthusiasm of the people dedicated to filling in the lost gaps in steam preservation while they have a chance, if you take the County, the P2 and Duke of Gloucester they weren't particularly successful the first time round either but modern technology has improved things.

The GWR County class was actually pretty good - probably better than a Castle when climbing banks, although not as fast "on the level". I think one reason they were not popular with some GWR fans is that they lacked the visual elegance of the Castles & Kings.

The early P2s did indeed have some teething problems, but I believe they were basically pretty good locos - but the quality of the track between Edinburgh & Aberdeen was not good enough for fast running by a long wheelbase 2-8-2. Then Thompson, apparently not over-impressed with some aspects of Gresley designs, chose to rebuild them into what proved to be rather mediocre 4-6-2s.
 

Cowley

Established Member
Associate Staff
General Discussion
Railtours & Preservation
Modelling & Games
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
10,290
Location
Devon
The GWR County class was actually pretty good - probably better than a Castle when climbing banks, although not as fast "on the level". I think one reason they were not popular with some GWR fans is that they lacked the visual elegance of the Castles & Kings.

The early P2s did indeed have some teething problems, but I believe they were basically pretty good locos - but the quality of the track between Edinburgh & Aberdeen was not good enough for fast running by a long wheelbase 2-8-2. Then Thompson, apparently not over-impressed with some aspects of Gresley designs, chose to rebuild them into what proved to be rather mediocre 4-6-2s.

That's interesting, I am looking forward to all these projects along with the Atlantic at the Bluebell, the Patriot and others being completed, it is amazing the organisation and dedication of those involved. Really looking forward to seeing the GWR 4700 "Night Owl" and the Saint.
 

E&W Lucas

Established Member
Joined
21 Jan 2010
Messages
1,358
Really looking forward to seeing the GWR 4700 "Night Owl"

i'm very sceptical about new build projects. In honesty, it's the GWR ones that essentially involve assembling standard components in a different way, that stand the most chance, and also represent the most realistic chance of securing funding for doing anything with the last batch of Barry wrecks. Realism aside, I'm no fan of things GW, having experienced the practical reality on too many occasions. However, a day driving a 28XX opened my eyes to a new world.... The Night Owl simply has to be experienced!
Going to need NR certification though. Even the NYMR won't be able to make it "break sweat"!

As for the original subject. Why not?
Diesel preservation is very "niche"; funded out of owners' and enthusiasts' back pockets. Will require a decent 47 to become available (any likely? There's not many candidates left), and the availability of a suitable power unit. Reliability not a significant issue for something that's only likely to see use on a few days a year, and barely going to go beyond "EO" when it does.
Good luck with it. Worth looking at the 30 too, as the last NR 31s bow out?
 
Last edited:

zn1

Member
Joined
3 Sep 2011
Messages
434
why were the 30's and 48's re-engined ? cos the installed power units couldnt deal with it.

Reverse engineering is always dodgy...i dont agree with it, never have.
 

Shaw S Hunter

Established Member
Joined
21 Apr 2016
Messages
2,318
Location
Sunny South Lancs
When you look at the lengths being gone to to recreate some of the lost GWR types at the moment it puts it into perspective, joe public probably couldn't tell the difference between a Hall, Manor, Saint, Grange, County etc, yet the County, Saint and Grange are coming together because of the enthusiasm of the people dedicated to filling in the lost gaps in steam preservation while they have a chance, if you take the County, the P2 and Duke of Gloucester they weren't particularly successful the first time round either but modern technology has improved things.

I am old enough to have been around at the end of steam but young enough to have no memory of it. As a result my main enthusiasm has always been in "today's" railway but with enough interest in the past to have learned a little about it along the way. But the coppertop railway has never done it for me so I would be just the same as Joe Public when it comes to recognising GWR loco types. Surely the problem with The Duke was simply more power than anybody wanted at the time with so much diesel traction just over the horizon.

why were the 30's and 48's re-engined ? cos the installed power units couldnt deal with it.

One word: unreliability! But unlike the various other dud diesel classes they were powerful enough to be worth keeping.
 

EbbwJunction1

Established Member
Joined
25 Mar 2010
Messages
1,261
Here's what those nice people at Wiki say about the Class 48s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_48

These are the relevant sections, although they don't say exactly why the experiment was discontinued:

"In service

The locomotives, numbered in the D1702-D1706 series, mainly worked from Tinsley depot in Sheffield, on both passenger and freight work. In 1969, they moved to Norwich depot where they worked on express trains between there and London Liverpool Street. The 12LVA24 engine, however, was found to be unreliable, and the locomotives spent more time out of service than their standard counterparts. Engine failures were common, and repairs often expensive. After conversion to class 47 they moved to Stratford depot, in East London, until they were displaced by examples fitted with electric train heating equipment. Subsequently, the batch went their separate ways, to several depots.

Rebuilding

Eventually it was decided not to continue with the 12LVA24 experiment, and it was decided to remove the engines and fit the standard 12LDA28 engines to the locomotives. D1702 was the first to be so treated at Crewe Works, using parts from D1908, withdrawn after a serious accident. It emerged in December 1969. All five locomotives had been so converted by early 1971, and then became standard Class 47s. The power units were sold to SNCF and used in their Class A1AA1A 68000 locomotives."
 

Ash Bridge

Established Member
Joined
17 Mar 2014
Messages
3,774
Location
Stockport Cheshire
Genuine question, why did these engines perform more reliably in the similar sized French 68000 locomotives, were they set to deliver a lower output in these machines?
 

Cowley

Established Member
Associate Staff
General Discussion
Railtours & Preservation
Modelling & Games
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
10,290
Location
Devon
Genuine question, why did these engines perform more reliably in the similar sized French 68000 locomotives, were they set to deliver a lower output in these machines?

Yes, according to Derbysulzers.com, in 1969 they were derated from 2650 to 2400 hp and their rpm reduced from 1050 to 1000rpm to improve reliability. There were apparently problems with engine blocks cracking, but they were a hard worked (and very handsome actually) class of loco, I think I remember riding behind one in France in the 80s when I was on holiday as a kid.

Does anyone on the forum have any experience of the Mirlees engines fitted to the original class 30s by any chance? My father remembers them when they were new.
 

markindurham

Member
Joined
1 Nov 2011
Messages
325
Yes, according to Derbysulzers.com, in 1969 they were derated from 2650 to 2400 hp and their rpm reduced from 1050 to 1000rpm to improve reliability. There were apparently problems with engine blocks cracking, but they were a hard worked (and very handsome actually) class of loco, I think I remember riding behind one in France in the 80s when I was on holiday as a kid.

Does anyone on the forum have any experience of the Mirlees engines fitted to the original class 30s by any chance? My father remembers them when they were new.

A not uncommon problem. I had a similar experience on a ship's Main Engine, where the Sales Department had sold an engine basis the premise that it could deliver a certain maximum continuous output. 2625kW, iirc. Unfortunately they hadn't discussed this with the Technical or Design Departments... As a result, we were regularly suffering cracked Cylinder Heads, replaced under Warranty, and then we found a crack in the Cylinder Block, resulting in a new Block having to be fitted under Warranty too. Very expensive and time consuming. Upshot was that we took the Makers to Court, and they had to pay for re-engining 2 ships with a competitor's Engine - one that WOULD reliably deliver the power required...
 

randyrippley

Established Member
Joined
21 Feb 2016
Messages
3,615
If you want to preserve a class 48, maybe the answer is to check with Cuba as to whether any of the ones they purchased are still extant.
Not a lots known about them, they were smuggled out of the UK with false credentials - built by Brush but with makers plates from Clayton to try and fool the USA sanctions police............ Barring a few headlight mods they were standard Brush 4's even with BR green paint when delivered. There's a small chance one might be festering away in a yard somewhere. Now that Cuba is opening up again, now is the chance to track one down and bring it back - if one still exists
 

XCTurbostar

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2014
Messages
1,236
If you want to preserve a class 48, maybe the answer is to check with Cuba as to whether any of the ones they purchased are still extant.
Not a lots known about them, they were smuggled out of the UK with false credentials - built by Brush but with makers plates from Clayton to try and fool the USA sanctions police............ Barring a few headlight mods they were standard Brush 4's even with BR green paint when delivered. There's a small chance one might be festering away in a yard somewhere. Now that Cuba is opening up again, now is the chance to track one down and bring it back - if one still exists

I think the chances of one being in a good state at this age is extremely low. Sources on the internet appear to suggest that 52504 was the last to survive and also suggests that this may have been cut up as well in 1998.

Thanks,
Ross
 

The Decapod

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2010
Messages
235
Location
Everywhere
Does anyone on the forum have any experience of the Mirlees engines fitted to the original class 30s by any chance? My father remembers them when they were new.

This colour video is about Brush Type 2s (Class 30) being built at Loughborough with Mirrlees engines. There's footage of the locos on the move and in service. The engines sound different from their English Electric replacements - less of a chugging sound and more of a rumble I think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JI3Y2gqMZM
 

Cowley

Established Member
Associate Staff
General Discussion
Railtours & Preservation
Modelling & Games
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
10,290
Location
Devon
Thanks for that, not seen that before. You can definitely hear a kind of Mirlees sound there, although I assume the recordings would have been made separately and added to the film in the studio.
The 31 that was shown being handed over to a BR crew D5695 is still in East Anglia, it became 31265 then 31430 and 31530 (Sister Dora).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top