Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by aformeruser, 18 Jul 2014.

  1. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    According to a community rail officer she attended a conference where an option was put forward to create 75 new DMUs for National Rail. The idea is adding complaint diesel engines to refurbished D78 rolling stock released from London Underground in 2016. Does anyone know anymore about this?

    Obviously the D78s don't have toilets but then the Pacers and most of the Sprinters don't have toilets which meet the post-2019 requirements of being accessible and retention toilets and also the seating would need to be made suitable for whatever routes they are cascaded to.
     
    Last edited: 30 Aug 2015
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  3. starrymarkb

    starrymarkb Established Member

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    Someone has been touting retractioning D-Stock for some time - reminds me of the lunatic ideas to rebuild 442s to save their favourite stock
     
  4. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

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    well that sounds like a challenge, but an interesting one. Would have thought rebuilding a car of each unit for a Panto would have been easier but this is certainly diffferent.
     
  5. ExRes

    ExRes Established Member

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    Looking at the height of D78 stock compared with a 170 there is only about 6" difference, is there enough space underneath the D78 to actually fit an engine and it additional gubbins though and would it be financially viable or technically possible on 35 year old stock ?

    I thought there had been a suggestion/proposal to transfer this stock to an electrified Harrogate branch, is that still on low gas or was it rejected ?
     
  6. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    On top of existing orders and proposed cascades I imagine the only AC EMUs that will need to be acquired over the next few years will be for regional and long distance services.
     
  7. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

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    An interesting proposal. Would it be a DMU or a DEMU given that the traction motors are in place?
     
  8. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    Harrogate line doesn't need 75 trains. The idea was something the local Chamber of Commerce came up with and they didn't even come up with a solution about where a depot would be located and how D78s would get to and from the depot. Rail North has Harrogate line down as a potential AC OHE scheme for CP6.

    If they were given a 15-20 year life expectancy following conversion could that be more financially viable then trying to keep Pacers in service until the end of CP6?
     
    Last edited: 18 Jul 2014
  9. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

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    I can only see this happening if it were possible to fit standard bus engines. However, I doubt any such engine would enable these trains to be run even on Pacer timings since per carriage they weigh effectively the same amount. If there were self-contained lines that could take them as little more than glorified Parry People Movers then they might have a use though but I can't see it making enough of a difference to really matter.
     
  10. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Would they pass mainline safety standards? I know they operate Richmond-Gunnersbury but not sure if this is a special case. Also is the width an issue - 150 mm wider than a 150 (but 2 m shorter).

    Always nice to see things being reused where possible, but I think the work required re-purposing something for a very different use would make it not worthwhile.

    And using complaint engines sounds like a bad idea ;)
     
  11. aformeruser

    aformeruser Veteran Member

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    That auto-correct again!

    I imagine a complaint engine is a Pacer one with a crush loading, which is like Tommy Walsh on Groundforce "You expect me to move all this weight to the next station in 10 minutes? No chance, it'll take 13 minimum."
     
  12. starrymarkb

    starrymarkb Established Member

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    I still reckon a small batch of diesels should be built for routes that are unlikely to be wired in the next 20 years. Maybe Stadler or someone could do a low cost unit for branch line work (and while Stadler are 'low cost' their build quality matches or exceeds some other major manufacturers)

    Either that or go down the french route with Bi-Mode regional units (ie the AGC and Regio 2N - though please nothing as awkwardly ugly as the 2n)
     
  13. Haydn1971

    Haydn1971 Established Member

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    Haha... Northern here they come ;)
     
  14. joeykins82

    joeykins82 Member

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    I cannot envisage a scenario where converting the D78s to DMUs or DEMUs could possibly work out as being better value over its lifespan than sourcing a modern DMU/DEMU/EDMU.
     
  15. NSEFAN

    NSEFAN Established Member

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    I feel that a better solution would be development of battery powered trains which recharge at every stop. I believe a class 379 is being converted in such a trial right now at Doncaster. This would allow for the benefits of electric traction without having to wire an entire route (at least not initially). We desperately need to move away from internal combustion engines on vehicles and this would be a step in the right direction. Putting diesels into D78 stock could probably be done but it'd be expensive and probably hard to make it meet emissions targets.
     
  16. 47802

    47802 On Moderation

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    What utter drivel, yeh I herd that in actual fact each driving trailer will get an MTU lump in the former passenger compartment at the end of the vehicle, the engine will be modified to sound more like a hasting unit:lol::lol:
     
  17. 90019

    90019 Established Member

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    Wasn't this debunked ages ago?
     
  18. Blindtraveler

    Blindtraveler Established Member

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    Fixed that for you :)

    this order, of maybe around 50 3 car and 15 each of 2 and 4 cars with end gangway and a commuter style 2 plus 2 seating arrangement should have been built along with all the other 172sand if it had been the worst of the Pacers would be in the process of being retired and the spriters refurbished to post 2020 4tandards. Much as I like the 14x units I know im in the minoritty and that in many or most cases there unsuitable for what they do!
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    and before someone mentions it, 80 isnt a small order but the capacity is needed on many routes and if this stock were cascaded each time a section was wired it accommodates both maintainance and groath on many routes and the sprinters etc woant last for ever
     
  19. Boothby97

    Boothby97 Established Member

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    If they head up north we'll get more comments like "all the north gets is the souths cast-offs" :lol:


    Its being converted at Derby
     
  20. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Sounds like utter wibble from a non-authoritative source.
     
  21. Nym

    Nym Established Member

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    Actually not that difficult to do at all, and even able to be compliant.
     
  22. Moonshot

    Moonshot Established Member

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    That sounds like a neat idea.....is there a link to a website for that ?
     
  23. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    Why is this stock being withdrawn?
     
  24. ExRes

    ExRes Established Member

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    Because at 34 years old it's the oldest LU stock and is being replaced by newer (and better) S Stock in 2016
     
  25. starrymarkb

    starrymarkb Established Member

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    It's being replaced by S Stock. LUL are standardising all the Sub-Surface stock on the same type. IIRC D-Stock will be around until about 2017 so approx a 40 year life
     
  26. tom1649

    tom1649 Member

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    The Bakerloo (1972) and Piccadilly (1973) stock are both older.
     
  27. ExRes

    ExRes Established Member

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    Quite so, it seems that you can't trust any source of information these days, I seem to recall that the overground underground part of my trips to Stonebridge Park and Harlesden sometimes felt like it was 1772 stock

    :o
     
  28. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    Turns out its a serious proposal with a diesel engine in the coach on a four car D stock. They even have glossy leaflets printed.
     
  29. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    don't be seduced by glossy leaflets, they're cheap. Who is proposing it, do they have the money, do they have DfT/PTE/Franchise/ROSCO support?
     
  30. christopher

    christopher Member

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    Another rumour I've heard personally is Merseyrail...
     
  31. deltic08

    deltic08 Established Member

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    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Exactly, so just scrap them. Imagine a 40 years old Pacer with another 20 years life. There would be riots in the North so leave down south with London Overground.
     
    Last edited: 19 Jul 2014

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