Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why would they want to swap out a powerpack at Corrour?

What if that was the place where the failure had occurred. The West Highland line has many locations where reaching a stranded unit needing a change of powerpack is not comparable to other areas. Vivarail in their much earlier press releases stated the ability to perform a change of traction mode at any location without recourse to third-party assistance was one of the points in its favour.

 

[craigybagel]

What if that was the place where the failure had occurred. The West Highland line has many locations where reaching a stranded unit needing a change of powerpack is not comparable to other areas.

Indeed it does. And how often have they had to replace the power packs on 156s in isolated, rural areas of that route? Or indeed, on any other part? That's not how the railway works.

Where the modular system does help is that a power pack could conceivably be replaced at somewhere like Fort William or even Mallaig - whereas with the 156s if they required an engine replacement they'd probably be sent all the way to Glasgow.

 

[apk55]

Unless there is a catastrophic failure like a fire (which would require more than an engine change) then a unit could quite happily limp along on 3/4 power until it got to a major depot for an engine change. With plenty of low speed tractive effort even with a power bogie disabled it would not get stuck on even a steeply graded line.

 

[Journeyman]

1.21GW at 750v would be interesting to see...

It's just as well the D-Train can't reach 88mph. The Delay Repay implications of that would be interesting.

 

[Journeyman]

In an earlier posting on this thread, where the line to Mallaig was mentioned as a possibility by Vivarail, but noting what is said above about the power equipment being able to be slid in and out with a forklift, there are certain locations on the West Highland line such as Corrour where such a task as that would be not very easily able to be performed, should an immediate need occur.

I know you're looking for problems with this project, but that's a bit ridiculous. It's not intended to be done in service, it's purely for simplified maintenance procedures and ease of conversion from one form of power to another.

 

[A0wen]

What if that was the place where the failure had occurred. The West Highland line has many locations where reaching a stranded unit needing a change of powerpack is not comparable to other areas. Vivarail in their much earlier press releases stated the ability to perform a change of traction mode at any location without recourse to third-party assistance was one of the points in its favour.

I think that 'at any location' is within reason - the point being made is that you don't need full depot facilities to remove the power pack and replace in the way you would for a traditional DMU engine. You clearly need to be able to get a fork lift truck alongside the unit to fit / remove the power pack - now at somewhere like Mallaig for example there does appear to be road-level access alongside the track - that may be suitable.

 

[keith1879]

What if that was the place where the failure had occurred. The West Highland line has many locations where reaching a stranded unit needing a change of powerpack is not comparable to other areas. Vivarail in their much earlier press releases stated the ability to perform a change of traction mode at any location without recourse to third-party assistance was one of the points in its favour.

I think you are right to pour a bit of cold water on some of the scottish speculation of the last couple of days ..... but to be fair I don't believe that Vivarail have ever made such a claim - or not in the way which you imply. their website refers to the use of a fork lift truck and a concrete pad which is a very simple alternative to the normal DMU maintenance facility required to swap an engine on a Sprinter for example.

 

[gordonjahn]

I know you're looking for problems with this project, but that's a bit ridiculous. It's not intended to be done in service, it's purely for simplified maintenance procedures and ease of conversion from one form of power to another.

Apart from the (deliberate?) misinterpretation of where engine swaps might take place, my reading of "Mallaig" was more that they could envision it on Fort William to Mallaig shuttle, so my first thought was why it would be at Corrour in service at all!

Interesting that they claim it can do up to 40 miles on battery and Fort William to Mallaig shows as 39 miles, 39 chains (so 39.5 miles).

On the power packs, I do wonder if they've designed the raft to fit through the doors so they can be sat (on protective mats) in the vestibules so that train + spare rafts can be delivered in a single trip.

 

[Journeyman]

Apart from the (deliberate?) misinterpretation of where engine swaps might take place, my reading of "Mallaig" was more that they could envision it on Fort William to Mallaig shuttle, so my first thought was why it would be at Corrour in service at all!

Interesting that they claim it can do up to 40 miles on battery and Fort William to Mallaig shows as 39 miles, 39 chains (so 39.5 miles).

On the power packs, I do wonder if they've designed the raft to fit through the doors so they can be sat (on protective mats) in the vestibules so that train + spare rafts can be delivered in a single trip.

Yeah, it's a bit desperate to say "you can't use D-Trains anywhere because one station on a line it probably won't ever operate on has no road access to hot-swap power modules!"

I figured Fort William to Mallaig as well, it would be good on a route like that. Have you seen the mock-up coffee shop interior on the Vivarail website? Looks amazing!

The modular power pack idea is potentially brilliant, it gives units practically no downtime. When a power pack needs overhaul, you just swap it for a freshly overhauled one, and send the removed one away to a central facility to go through the overhaul process. It's got shades of Aldenham Bus Overhaul Works to it, highly appropriate for a London Transport product!

 

[sprinterguy]

Interesting that they claim it can do up to 40 miles on battery and Fort William to Mallaig shows as 39 miles, 39 chains (so 39.5 miles).

That's cutting it a bit fine, especially with the gradients on that line!

Ah well, at least the views around Morar are nice when it inevitably runs out of juice.

 

[Journeyman]

That's cutting it a bit fine, especially with the gradients on that line!

Ah well, at least the views around Morar are nice when it inevitably runs out of juice.

I'm pretty sure there's a contingency built in! You'd hope so anyway...could always have rescue kettles on standby up there.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yeah I can't see NR ever approving a battery unit to run a route any more than 75-80% of its maximum potential range between charging locations.

 

[bastien]

Yeah I can't see NR ever approving a battery unit to run a route any more than 75-80% of its maximum potential range between charging locations.

How close to empty are diesels allowed to get, typically?

 

[samuelmorris]

I don't know, probably a bit closer than that, but they are less susceptible to reductions in range based on temperature.

 

[Journeyman]

How close to empty are diesels allowed to get, typically?

I don't think there's any rules on that. It has been known for trains to run out of fuel, either partially (one vehicle on a DMU) or completely (on a loco).

 

[bastien]

I don't think there's any rules on that. It has been known for trains to run out of fuel, either partially (one vehicle on a DMU) or completely (on a loco).

Yeah I've seen that photo of a railtour filling up from a tractor & trailer.

 

[mushroomchow]

It's just as well the D-Train can't reach 88mph. The Delay Repay implications of that would be interesting.

On the contrary, it would probably arrive at its destination before it even departs!

 

[Journeyman]

On the contrary, it would probably arrive at its destination before it even departs!

Well, that's a bonus, but what if you're fifty years late? How much of your fare do you get back for that?

 

[mushroomchow]

Well, that's a bonus, but what if you're fifty years late? How much of your fare do you get back for that?

The space-time continuum would be altered, all they have to do is keep going back until it gets there on time and you'd never know it had even happened.

That's the same logic that dumps retired Gatwick Express stock in the Hope Valley, for anybody who's wondering.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On the contrary, it would probably arrive at its destination before it even departs!

Wouldn't that mean pax have to pay extra? A kind of "Undelay Unrepay"?

 

[notlob.divad]

On the power packs, I do wonder if they've designed the raft to fit through the doors so they can be sat (on protective mats) in the vestibules so that train + spare rafts can be delivered in a single trip.

You still have to get the forklift there. So the Spare rafts may as well go on the same lorry that delivers the forklift. Unless they have also designed a forklift that can fit through the doors.

 

[Journeyman]

The space-time continuum would be altered, all they have to do is keep going back until it gets there on time and you'd never know it had even happened.

That's the same logic that dumps retired Gatwick Express stock in the Hope Valley, for anybody who's wondering.

Just make sure you don't end up somewhere you can't generate the required 1.21GW!

 

[Journeyman]

Wouldn't that mean pax have to pay extra? A kind of "Undelay Unrepay"?

You need to come and clean up the Irn Bru I just spat at my screen!

 

[furnessvale]

How close to empty are diesels allowed to get, typically?

Some years ago, class 37 locos on trial runs of woodpulp from Felixstowe/Tilbury? to Barrow in Furness ran out of fuel so often that the contract was taken off rail and it now goes by coastal shipping!

 

[edwin_m]

I'd be a bit worried about the battery units given the occasional stranding of trains in the Highlands for long periods in bad weather.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be a bit worried about the battery units given the occasional stranding of trains in the Highlands for long periods in bad weather.

I'd be surprised if they didn't have a diesel heater. Most electric buses in the UK do. Other power consuming items could be shut down.

 

[gingertom]

I figured Fort William to Mallaig as well, it would be good on a route like that. Have you seen the mock-up coffee shop interior on the Vivarail website? Looks amazing!

I saw the mock-up and liked the prices. The catering service won't survive long tough if they are charging £1.50 for a latte.

 

[johnnychips]

I saw the mock-up and liked the prices. The catering service won't survive long tough if they are charging £1.50 for a latte.

Do you mean it’s too cheap or too dear? Is a ‘latte’ what us over-50s would call a ‘white coffee’?

 

[gingertom]

Do you mean it’s too cheap or too dear? Is a ‘latte’ what us over-50s would call a ‘white coffee’?

Too cheap. Starbucks charge twice as much. I'm over 60 myself. I'd describe it as a milky white coffee. Lots of milk.

 

[trash80]

They'll still make a profit on it, markup on coffee and (especially) tea is huge