Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[sw1ller]

IIRC from the chat with him the bogies were always split so they could negotiate tight bends on parts of the district line, giving a better ride.

Ahh, I’ve mis understood what he was saying. About 15 minutes into the video (that I watched at 1am last night! It’s a poor excuse but one I’ll keep making on this forum!) I thought he said the tracks were smoother down London Underground (no idea why, I know they’re not) so a solid bogie was all that was needed. Thinking they’d kept it very basic given when they were built. Obviously I’m forgetting that there were some very clever people back then. I’ve woken up a bit now. Sorry. Haha.

 

[The_Engineer]

Ahh, I’ve mis understood what he was saying. About 15 minutes into the video (that I watched at 1am last night! It’s a poor excuse but one I’ll keep making on this forum!) I thought he said the tracks were smoother down London Underground (no idea why, I know they’re not) so a solid bogie was all that was needed. Thinking they’d kept it very basic given when they were built. Obviously I’m forgetting that there were some very clever people back then. I’ve woken up a bit now. Sorry. Haha.

I am certain that the bogies under the D78 cars at withdrawal were new Bombardier ones, fitted when they refurbished the Stock a while ago. I am not sure whose bogies they were originally fitted with (when D78 was built by Metro-Cammell) but I am sure they were solid frame bogies.

 

[Dstock7080]

I am certain that the bogies under the D78 cars at withdrawal were new Bombardier ones, fitted when they refurbished the Stock a while ago. I am not sure whose bogies they were originally fitted with (when D78 was built by Metro-Cammell) but I am sure they were solid frame bogies.

D Stock bogies were changed for Bombardier ones 2000-2002 just before the refurbishment programme started.
Bogies from new were solid frame.

 

[oversteer]

Marston Vale introduction delayed to “New Year”

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-official-statement-marston-vale-line/

 

[class387]

Marston Vale introduction delayed to “New Year”

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-official-statement-marston-vale-line/

Any idea what the problem is?

 

[DarloRich]

Any idea what the problem is?

I asked at #6475 how things were going. I suspected not well and have heard rumours as to why. As they are not from people I know well so I will remain silent.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Any idea what the problem is?

According to the Railway Gazette article at:
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...class-230-dmu-entry-into-service-delayed.html

...Vivarail said the time taken to optimise the control systems on the first unit had delayed work on the next two...

 

[pemma]

So guess the knock on effect will be 3 x 150s delayed in being cascaded to Northern, which means Pacers delayed in being released, which might in turn affect TfW if they are wanting the 144s on short term lease.

 

[krus_aragon]

So guess the knock on effect will be 3 x 150s delayed in being cascaded to Northern, which means Pacers delayed in being released, which might in turn affect TfW if they are wanting the 144s on short term lease.

Let alone the knock-on delays for the 230s that TfW are expecting to receive themselves from "early 2019" onwards.

 

[HLE]

Good grief it’s the diesel engined variety, the concept unit has been knocking about for a few years now. The new unit can’t be that different to that one.

As a aside it have the hill start button fitted in the end? That was highlighted by the union a couple of years ago

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does anyone know what method of operation will be used for the 230s on the Marston Vale? Clearly it won't be DOO or any variant thereof, but if they used driver release this would speed up operation a bit and make the guard's retail duties a bit easier.

 

[HLE]

Haha guard’s retail duties on LM.....careful, that’s a can of worms opened.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Haha guard’s retail duties on LM.....careful, that’s a can of worms opened.

On the Marston Vale revenue is always done unless their ticket machine is broken.

 

[Mordac]

On the Marston Vale revenue is always done unless their ticket machine is broken.

Yeah, the guards on the 'regional' services are a totally different kettle of fish to those on the WCML ones in my experience.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I very rarely dare offer comment upon the Class 230 project these days, after originally being viewed as one only interested in the project from a hard commercial point of view where matters such as "innovation for innovation's sake" are NOT given equal credence as other seem to aspire to, but being mindful of the reality of what was an already agreed project of 12 month duration in the Coventry area that came to naught (remind me what particular incendiary matter occurred in the run-up to that project) and the now stated delay problem in commencing the current Marston Vale Line project very many months later than that, on the first week in January at the start of 2019, how many of these Class 230 units will actually be running anywhere in revenue-earning service in January 2019 on the main rail network so long after the inception of the said project?

 

[HLE]

I doubt if any will be in service by January

 

[A0wen]

I doubt if any will be in service by January

Based on fact or just wild speculation?

 

[samuelmorris]

Well, based on common sense. If the target was December and there's been sufficient delay to make a public announcement, it seems unlikely that delay will only be a matter of days. Pure speculation of course but if they offer up a general 'it'll be delayed' rather than a specific new target date, I reckon we're probably looking a February earliest.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Based on fact or just wild speculation?

Do you hold any hopes that the Marston Vale service with Class 230 trains will be running by the end of 2018?

 

[Clip]

Do you hold any hopes that the Marston Vale service with Class 230 trains will be running by the end of 2018?

I think most of us would love them to start - especially those users of the Marston Vale who, from many posts on here, are really wanting them to come online.

Its a funny one really as i dont seem to remember too many if any of your posts in the Porterbrook Flex thread with the same sort of content on a commercial basis as you try and dress it up here - wonder why that project hasnt had your scorn placed upon it like this one has?

 

[HLE]

Based on fact or just wild speculation?

Something in between. If the training runs aren’t happening yet or have been postponed then it’s a good bet the Bletchley lot that work the line haven’t been on the course either and passed out on the 230’s. If that is the case and with Christmas fast approaching it’s a reasonable conclusion to draw that the units won’t be in service by January. There isn’t much time even if the problems reported upthread are sorted.

 

[samuelmorris]

Do you hold any hopes that the Marston Vale service with Class 230 trains will be running by the end of 2018?

Based on the below, no.

Vivarail said it was confident that the DMUs would be ready for service in the New Year.

 

[Jonny]

Haha guard’s retail duties on LM.....careful, that’s a can of worms opened.

On the Marston Vale revenue is always done unless their ticket machine is broken.

Well, given the sheer number of unstaffed stations on that line, unlike most other LM routes, you would need the guards to 'do revenue'. Otherwise, passengers would either have to settle up at the end - if they are going that far - or they might not even have the opportunity to pay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, given the sheer number of unstaffed stations on that line, unlike most other LM routes, you would need the guards to 'do revenue'. Otherwise, passengers would either have to settle up at the end - if they are going that far - or they might not even have the opportunity to pay.

As both Bedford and Bletchley are barriered (as from today for the full period of service in the latter case if LNR are to be believed) and most journeys involve one end or the other, I'd imagine evasion would actually be quite low, though it is known in some circles that the way to escape at Bletchley without paying is to take the Marston Vale to Fenny Stratford as revenue is never done before there as there's not enough time.

 

[DarloRich]

As both Bedford and Bletchley are barriered (as from today for the full period of service in the latter case if LNR are to be believed) and most journeys involve one end or the other, I'd imagine evasion would actually be quite low, though it is known in some circles that the way to escape at Bletchley without paying is to take the Marston Vale to Fenny Stratford as revenue is never done before there as there's not enough time.

rarely done not never. There are several guards who are able to do a full check in that time.

 

[class387]

Is Marston Vale testing still going on with 230003 despite the delay?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Its a funny one really as i dont seem to remember too many if any of your posts in the Porterbrook Flex thread with the same sort of content on a commercial basis as you try and dress it up here - wonder why that project hasnt had your scorn placed upon it like this one has?

I note what you say above in relation to the Porterbrook Flex thread, but I think that there is not all that much in the way of comparison between Vivarail and its purchase of a limited job lot of used LU stock to upgrade and sell onto the TOC and that of Porterbrook, based upon the products in both number and type that come under their remit.

However, since you wish to raise this matter on the thread, look at the numbers of actual currently sold units of the types referred to that have been achieved to date by both Vivarail and Porterbrook.

 

[samuelmorris]

That's a fair criticism, but I think the reason for those comments is predominantly because you have been quite vocal about the delay to the 230 programme. The 769 is similarly well behind schedule (though of course, so too are many new fleet introductions).

 

[Peter Sarf]

Some differences between the two projects are :-

The leasing company Porterbrook have on their hands a number of EMUs (319s to become 769s) that are redundant whereas Vivarail CHOSE to buy redundant EMUs (London Underground D-stock to become Class 230s).

The 319s/769s are already used on the mainline whereas the 230s are seen as new comers to the mainline network - not strictly true but this appears to have raised prejudice and confusion.

The 319s/769s are capable of 100mph (or is it 90mph ?) whereas the 230s are 60mph (with better acceleration) so each will be useful for a different set of uses.

The project to convert 319s to 769s came along after the project to convert D stock to 230s.

The 319s do not seem to have received the same amount of negative postulation as the 230s.

The innovation that Vivarail have attempted will have resulted in a lot of lessons learned and new ideas explored. This innovation would not happen if ideas were allowed to be suppressed by repeated cynicism. There were those of us on this thread who were very interested to explore all/any possibilities/uses and found the repetitive trotting out of the same downsides tiresome and distracting. I am a realist but I do like to see new ideas given a chance - that does require a gamble.

It does seem that the 769 project has received less negative criticism. This may simply be because it came after the ground breaking work by Vivarail. Vivarail have continued forward with work on a battery electric version.

If you don't want innovation then we would never have moved on from Steam engines. I think the UK was rather too conservative on that front anyway as we were the last country (or one off) in Europe to move on from steam. We then only progressed as far as diesel anyway. I just spotted the irony - we are talking about projects that convert electric trains to diesel trains !. There is an argument that we could get stuck at the HST stage of progress - unless we properly electrify. I wonder , in the mid 1970s, how much cynicism there was about HSTs btw.

 

[notlob.divad]

If you don't want innovation then we would never have moved on from Steam engines

horse and cart.

The 769 project also creates a bi-mode whereas the 230 appear to create a simple DMU with an extension creating a battery powered unit.