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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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Bletchleyite

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Meanwhile, as well as the WCML being in bits, the Bedford service this evening looked rather like a (brand new, very posh, tri-axle[1]) road coach due to "a fault on the train".

[1] Why do they persist in wasting a fortune on this when a couple of taxis would do at this time of night?
 
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jimm

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It's still more interesting to note the greater tolerance on RUK to Vivarail's issues than pretty much any other project. The slightest niggle to any project not associated with Mr Shooter comes with howls of angst and derision, but the 230s have a problem and it's Gucci...

What greater tolerance?

How about you actually try reading this thread if you think that's the case? There is one heck of a lot of intolerance from the past five years to be found along the way.

As you're in West Yorkshire, why are you so exercised about these trains anyway? No one is gong to be standing on a platform at Baildon station with a cattle prod forcing you on board a 230, when the nearest one currently to be found is 160 miles away.

The Marston Vale has been an operational oddity/inconvenience ever since the ends of the Oxford-Cambridge axis were chopped off in the 1960s, so what on earth is wrong with a bespoke solution suited to the route being adopted until the East West Rail project finally becomes a reality?

As well as providing trains that the locals clearly like, they also eliminate the need to send dmus all the way to Birmingham and back for heavy maintenance, as the 230s were designed with ease of maintenance and quick changes of things like the generator set rafts in mind, so the work can all be done at Bletchley.

Meanwhile, as well as the WCML being in bits, the Bedford service this evening looked rather like a (brand new, very posh, tri-axle[1]) road coach due to "a fault on the train".

[1] Why do they persist in wasting a fortune on this when a couple of taxis would do at this time of night?

Probably because the coach company will send LNR an invoice for its services, whereas the cabbies will prefer instant payment, I should think.
 

mmh

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It's still more interesting to note the greater tolerance on RUK to Vivarail's issues than pretty much any other project. The slightest niggle to any project not associated with Mr Shooter comes with howls of angst and derision, but the 230s have a problem and it's Gucci...

Agreed. There seems to be something of a cult surrounding them where any criticism or dissent is automatically disallowed.

Some of the more outlandish claims for them on here just re-inforce my take. We've had people say they were sure they could do 80/90mph and advocate them being used on the (infamously full) WCML, and magically have greater capacity than a pacer with considerably more seats.

They might be fine for what they are, but they are what they are!

Other trains, new or rebuilt, are rightly criticised for being unreliable, either on introduction or 20 years later.
 

anamyd

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As to the Class 230s I had a trip on one yesterday and apart from a delay at Woburn Sands, actually went quite well.

Was quite impressed with the interior although it would have been nice if someone was available to do a litter pick during the 20 minute or so turnaround at Bletchley as one end of the train had countless empty beer cans littering the area.

Other then that, wow certainly a step up from the Sprinters even if they are of similar ages?
The 153s were built in 1987-88 as 155s and split / converted to single carriage units in 1991-92. The D78s were built in 1978-1981.
 

anamyd

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It was indeed running. Drove to Lidlington on the theory that with 4 minutes between trains, we'd be able to stand on one platform and if that wasn't the 230 have time to move to the other. Proved unnecessary to put that plan to the test as the PIS on the Bedford platform talked about a 2 car train, the Bletchley platform a 1 car train.

The exterior is as Thomas the Tank Engine would say, "splendid", but have to say I'm distinctly underwhelmed by the interior - the floor looks to me like it's what was on the D Stock, and the windows too (which were grimy) - including the heavily scratched surrounds. The toilet exterior seemed fairly shoddily put together and there was a crack in the white stuff around the exterior too. The engine seemed noisier than actual transits I have driven (accept this may be because of different standards on a train). Also, when we tried to enter, the button didn't work (even after the beep as explained we needed to wait for by one of the several guards on it, cause the light doesn't work either) so we had to change door.

Oh and we were about half an hour late at Bedford. Not sure exactly why but we had to pass a couple of signals at danger and there were blokes at level crossings, so I assume some kind of problem nothing to do with the stock. Never noticed any particularly exciting accelleration.

All that said, I may be being a bit harsh - it's perfectly decent at doing its job, and I don't know what I was expecting really. But it's not very interesting, and I wouldn't recommend making a trip out to see it. If you want to try something unusual on national rail metals, go to Stourbridge instead!
Did the Transits you drove have twin 5-cylinder Duratorq TDCis per vehicle or just a single 4-cylinder one (or single 5-cylinder as an option in the biggest version)...?
 

boing_uk

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It's still more interesting to note the greater tolerance on RUK to Vivarail's issues than pretty much any other project. The slightest niggle to any project not associated with Mr Shooter comes with howls of angst and derision, but the 230s have a problem and it's Gucci...

Think you’re talking a load of old codswallop there, but hey ho.

I’ve not seen anyone wailing about any of the other matters as much as I have with detractors nit picking about Cl230 teething troubles.

And for the record, I don’t actually know who this Adrian Shooter is apart from being some bod from Chiltern. I certainly don’t have any hero-worship of the fellow.

But I do find unwarranted criticisms of minor issues very irksome, especially against a product which has been marketed for a specific job for a specific time-frame.

Cl230s aren’t “mainline” stock. They’re pretty much the modern-day incarnation of the Pacer philosophy, but clearly much better implemented in terms of customer experience, from the feedback of actual users and not some keyboard grump from the soggy foothills :E
 

anamyd

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As far as D-Trains are concerned, this is the last of my comparison films ... for now. Who knows what I might film in North Wales, when the time is right! I expect it to be different - different livery, more (all?) doors retained, bi-lingual...
just one door removed for the toilet I think. English-only automated announcements (if the guard is Welsh-speaking, they'll be manually translated), bilingual place names on PIS displays but all other text English-only, and bilingual logos / decals on the exterior.
 

anamyd

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Let's face it if the trains are successful with LNWR and TFW, I can't see any reason why a tried and tested hydrogen bus engine can't simply replace a 3.2ltr Ford Diesel under the carriage floor, it'll require a specific route due to installation of Hydrogen tanks at a specific depot, and if that needs to be a rural line like Windermere then so be it, we all know speced right these train have a bright future beyond dirty diesel and just batteries
Two 3.2 litre 5 cylinder Duratorq TDCis per car in the diesel-electric version...
 

anamyd

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230005 was in service last night after 230004 suffered an engine failure.

The good news is the availability of a spare meant the delay was 30 minutes not a complete service closure and replacement with a bus.
Engine failure...? Those Ford engines really need to be replaced with something more durable...
 

anamyd

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The engines work fine in a 3300 KG Transit or 1968 KG Ranger but they're always going to have issues trying to move a train. I can see them being replaced with 1 larger engine designed for industrial use.
would one of those slimline 13 litre 6 cylinder MANs (a 769 engine in other words) fit...? it could be detuned to the same 400hp of the twin 3.2L 5cyl Duratorq TDCis if cooling was an issue
 

boing_uk

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Engine failure...? Those Ford engines really need to be replaced with something more durable...
Plenty of ancillary things that could cause an “engine failure” though. Electrics, fuel systems etc etc.

The engine platform itself is I should think probably fairly robust, given its pedigree...
 

anamyd

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They don't "move a train", they turn a generator at optimal operating speed, so arguably a much easier life than at the front of a Transit being ragged to death by white van man. The thing that might be an issue is the very different nature of the shocks and vibrations you get on a steel wheeled rail vehicle as against a rubber tyred road vehicle, and also possibly differing air flows.
"white van man" also tends to drive a vehicle with a single 4-cylinder Duratorq TDCi in it, not twin 5-cylinder versions
 

anamyd

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I stopped at Husbourne Crawley between Aspley Guise and Ridgmont (quite a handful to type!) this morning to take a photo of one of the new trains. Externally 230005 looked really smart (though dwarfed by the countryside!) and it was eerily quiet as it passed me. The service I saw, the 11.01 from Bletchley to Bedford arrived 1 minute early having kept time throughout. I see later on that one of the units had failed, a real shame and I hope they can snag all the issues so that they can be relied on.

As well as the retrofitted windows replacing the doors it was obvious were the original doors were as you can see the metal on the roof used to divert rain water away from the doors.

Nice shots!
 

O L Leigh

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I have very mixed views on these trains and am still not sure whether I think they’re a good idea or not. I get the whole thing about a low-cost “new train” option for lightly used lines with low speeds but I’m not sure that this is necessarily the best way to solve that problem. I guess a lot of it will come down to longevity and utilisation which will determine the whole-life value. Re-engineering old trains and giving them a new lease of life certainly seems like a good idea, but they are still old trains at the end of the day. I’m pleased that they’ve been well received by the good folk of the Marston Vale, but good user feedback is only one side of the coin.

I’ve not used these trains myself so what I’m not going to do is criticise the concept, engineering or quality of presentation. However, what I am convinced about is that these trains are symptomatic of the lackadaisical attitude towards rolling stock procurement. I am firmly of the view that an opportunity was missed ten years ago after the formation of London Midland to ensure that the operator had access to a modern DMU fleet. I am, of course, talking about the Cl172s. Why oh why did they not just build sufficient numbers of these units to see off the remaining Cl150s and Cl153s so that the Marston Vale had it’s fleet of modern trains years ago? Quite frankly, the need for Vivarail’s D-Train concept should never have existed.

While the Cl172s are not without their shortcomings, they would have been a good platform to have been a Pacer/Sprinter replacement. They are capable of 100mph but have good standing acceleration and can be configured in almost limitless ways. They also have a degree of backwards compatibility should this be needed. Had the DfT possessed enough foresight these units could have been ordered in far larger numbers and the Pacers that we still suffer now could have been dog food tins years ago.

What we have instead is an ongoing piecemeal drip-feeding of new trains into an already over-complicated fleet, with an ever expanding palette of types, of which the D-Train is just one, with all the financial and operational penalties that this implies. TOCs now have a few of these and a few of those and a dozen or so new something elses on order, with one TOC getting this and another TOC getting that. It’s a mess now and will only get messier as time goes on and TOC boundaries are redrawn and fleets cascaded.

To come back to the D-Train, I can’t blame it, Vivarail or “that bloke from Chiltern” for this situation, nor for seeing an opportunity and exploiting it. It’s a good idea, but one that should never really have had to come to fruition. My own personal conviction is that if it had been anyone other than Adrian Shooter proposing it they would have been turned away, but Adrian is incredibly well connected within the rail industry and commands a lot of respect which no doubt helped to give the D-Train project sufficient gravitas. However, a properly ordered rolling stock procurement programme would have ensured that the D-Train concept remained on the drawing board.

On a couple of detail points, I’m not convinced that the need for units to return to Tyseley on a periodic basis is such a big deal. No doubt this is something that Vivarail pushed as a benefit to LNWR, but cycling units back through a remote maintenance depot as part of the normal diagramming has been going on for many years and is the method of working employed by many other TOCs also. However, given the branding split I can see that having WMR branded trains turning up on the Marston Vale line is less than ideal in terms of brand image. But then, would it have been too much to have had a dedicated pool of units carrying LNWR branding?
 

Hadders

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Class 172s won't work on the Marston Vale due to platform length and level crossing proximity.
 

DarloRich

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It's still more interesting to note the greater tolerance on RUK to Vivarail's issues than pretty much any other project. The slightest niggle to any project not associated with Mr Shooter comes with howls of angst and derision, but the 230s have a problem and it's Gucci...

I have no idea who Mr Shooter (?) is. I wouldnt know him if he was stood in front of me. I don't care. His gravitas or otherwise plays no part in the formation of my views that his company have produced a good quality product for passengers on our line.

The other problem is that you have no idea what the problems are or what the impact of these problems is or how the service differs from the experience under sprinter operation. You are using third hand information to try and justify your view. You have never traveled on these trains and have little idea about introducing new trains into service. There have been some teething problems but nothing out of the ordinary to my mind. The key is to ensure they are quickly ironed out and do not reoccur.

Agreed. There seems to be something of a cult surrounding them where any criticism or dissent is automatically disallowed.

Some of the more outlandish claims for them on here just re-inforce my take. We've had people say they were sure they could do 80/90mph and advocate them being used on the (infamously full) WCML, and magically have greater capacity than a pacer with considerably more seats.

They might be fine for what they are, but they are what they are!

Other trains, new or rebuilt, are rightly criticised for being unreliable, either on introduction or 20 years later.

There is no problem with criticism. What I ( and i suspect others) have an issue with is poorly informed criticism based on bias rather than practical knowledge. I accept some of you cant acknowledge the concept of these trains. I do not accept criticism of something you have never traveled on. I will continue to pull that up and help other posters grade the accuracy of your views.

I state again, based on daily use of this line for nearly 9 years, the class 230 trains offer a better travel environment for passengers than the trains they replaced.

How often have you used these trains?

BTW these trains do have more seats and a higher capacity than a pacer.

I’ve not used these trains myself so what I’m not going to do is criticise the concept, engineering or quality of presentation. However, what I am convinced about is that these trains are symptomatic of the lackadaisical attitude towards rolling stock procurement. I am firmly of the view that an opportunity was missed ten years ago after the formation of London Midland to ensure that the operator had access to a modern DMU fleet. I am, of course, talking about the Cl172s. Why oh why did they not just build sufficient numbers of these units to see off the remaining Cl150s and Cl153s so that the Marston Vale had it’s fleet of modern trains years ago? Quite frankly, the need for Vivarail’s D-Train concept should never have existed.

without expensive infrastructure changes and platform extensions nothing longer than a class 150 can operate on the line.

To come back to the D-Train, I can’t blame it, Vivarail or “that bloke from Chiltern” for this situation, nor for seeing an opportunity and exploiting it. It’s a good idea, but one that should never really have had to come to fruition. My own personal conviction is that if it had been anyone other than Adrian Shooter proposing it they would have been turned away, but Adrian is incredibly well connected within the rail industry and commands a lot of respect which no doubt helped to give the D-Train project sufficient gravitas. However, a properly ordered rolling stock procurement programme would have ensured that the D-Train concept remained on the drawing board.

How much of this railway connectivity do you think persuades banks to lend money? The backers of this project obviously felt the business case and sales opportunities were adequate for them to lend money. I happen to agree that the existence of these trains is due to a poorly organised programme of procurement and Vivarail have exploited that.

On a couple of detail points, I’m not convinced that the need for units to return to Tyseley on a periodic basis is such a big deal. No doubt this is something that Vivarail pushed as a benefit to LNWR, but cycling units back through a remote maintenance depot as part of the normal diagramming has been going on for many years and is the method of working employed by many other TOCs also. However, given the branding split I can see that having WMR branded trains turning up on the Marston Vale line is less than ideal in terms of brand image. But then, would it have been too much to have had a dedicated pool of units carrying LNWR branding?

Of course it is "a big thing"! Every Sunday 4 diesel units traveled empty between Blethcley and Birmingham and vice versa. That is a complete waste of resource and money. It also means that if a unit fails a replacement has to come from Birmingham. If no replacement is available then the service was cancelled for entire days. Not having to run to and form Birmingham once a week is massive improvement for us as passengers. Having locally based trains means we have a more resilient service.

Do you honestly think any passngers gives a hoot about branding? They want a train to get them to and from work! It can be painted pink and purple for all normal people care!
 

supervc-10

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A quick look on Google Maps suggests, to me at least, that those platforms could relatively easily be extended. Of course that would require a fair bit of money being invested on the line.

I presume that the reason why Pacers and 153s weren't replaced by something like the single-car railcars used on the continent is the cost of buying them, but I'm sure there are enough 150s across the country to operate these small lines, and if enough 172s and now 195s had been ordered, the whole 153 and Pacer fleets could have been replaced with ease.
 

DarloRich

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A quick look on Google Maps suggests, to me at least, that those platforms could relatively easily be extended. Of course that would require a fair bit of money being invested on the line.

there is more to do than just extend platforms. The signalling will need moving at most stations. At Fenny Stratford, for instance, where we have one of the longer platforms the signal posts are right on the end of the platform. That is fairly common along the line. In any event no one is going to authorise spending the required sum on a quiet branch line when it isnt needed and only recently ( in signalling terms) had a massive upgrade.

I presume that the reason why Pacers and 153s weren't replaced by something like the single-car railcars used on the continent is the cost of buying them, but I'm sure there are enough 150s across the country to operate these small lines, and if enough 172s and now 195s had been ordered, the whole 153 and Pacer fleets could have been replaced with ease.

All 150's are spoken for even after Northern get new trains.
 

Class172

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A quick look on Google Maps suggests, to me at least, that those platforms could relatively easily be extended. Of course that would require a fair bit of money being invested on the line.
If I recall it is the signal placing that provides the constraint on platform extensions in many cases.
 

supervc-10

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Ahhh OK. That makes sense.

Re the 150s- I was more thinking of if enough new diesel units had been ordered back when the 172s were being ordered, or if more 195s had been ordered, then more 150s could have been cascaded. I appreciate that they probably wouldn't have been sorted right now, but there aren't many routes where the short length of a 2-car 150 is as much of a benefit as it is on the Marston Vale line are there?
 

DarloRich

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Ahhh OK. That makes sense.

Re the 150s- I was more thinking of if enough new diesel units had been ordered back when the 172s were being ordered, or if more 195s had been ordered, then more 150s could have been cascaded. I appreciate that they probably wouldn't have been sorted right now, but there aren't many routes where the short length of a 2-car 150 is as much of a benefit as it is on the Marston Vale line are there?

I agree entirely with the point that a proper strategy for rolling stock procurement would mean there was no need for the class 230 trains.
 

DarloRich

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Meanwhile, as well as the WCML being in bits, the Bedford service this evening looked rather like a (brand new, very posh, tri-axle[1]) road coach due to "a fault on the train".

[1] Why do they persist in wasting a fortune on this when a couple of taxis would do at this time of night?

the 1551 from Blethcley was cancelled due to crew being unable to get to Beltchley due to the incident at MKC.

the 1732 was delayed about 30 minutes due to a door fault. Several fitters and LNWR chaps eventually fixed it. I suspect it was a fault that had not materialised before as they had to try several fixes.
 

Bletchleyite

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the 1551 from Blethcley was cancelled due to crew being unable to get to Beltchley due to the incident at MKC.

the 1732 was delayed about 30 minutes due to a door fault. Several fitters and LNWR chaps eventually fixed it. I suspect it was a fault that had not materialised before as they had to try several fixes.

This was the 21xx, the inbound from which RTT has down as "This service was cancelled throughout due to a problem with the traction equipment (MD)."

which seems (from https://wiki.openraildata.com/index.php/Delay_Attribution_Guide) to be:
MD Other technical failures below the solebar BELOW SBAR
 

O L Leigh

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How much of this railway connectivity do you think persuades banks to lend money? The backers of this project obviously felt the business case and sales opportunities were adequate for them to lend money. I happen to agree that the existence of these trains is due to a poorly organised programme of procurement and Vivarail have exploited that.

Quite a lot, I suspect. It's not so much persuading the banks themselves as persuading (and getting commitments from) the railway industry that helps to secure funding. It's this that Adrian is incredibly well placed to exploit. Lets not forget that the D-Train concept had been kicking around for quite a while before he even bought his first train. Heck, it was even discussed here some years ago. That you might not have heard of the man before does not mean that he doesn't have a profile within the industry that gives him leverage.

Of course it is "a big thing"! Every Sunday 4 diesel units traveled empty between Blethcley and Birmingham and vice versa. That is a complete waste of resource and money. It also means that if a unit fails a replacement has to come from Birmingham. If no replacement is available then the service was cancelled for entire days. Not having to run to and form Birmingham once a week is massive improvement for us as passengers. Having locally based trains means we have a more resilient service.

It works well enough for GA on the Sudbury branch, and elsewhere in the country I'm sure. Units travelling to and from remote maintenance facilities is a daily occurrence, the cost of which is factored into the service. In any case, it's likely to still be more financially sensible to do this compared to the cost of outsourced maintenance.

However, this does actually illustrate my main point quite nicely. Reliance on a small fleet of a specific type of train affects service resilience and proper rolling stock procurement could have dealt with the issue. There is no reason why there couldn't have been a spare DMU at Bletchley, but if it had to be a specific type of which the TOC only has a small number then it becomes operationally marginal.

Does the Marston Vale service really require four units to cover the necessary diagrams? That sounds like a lot and has me wondering about the TOC's use of it's resources.

Do you honestly think any passngers gives a hoot about branding? They want a train to get them to and from work! It can be painted pink and purple for all normal people care!

Passengers? No. Abellio, perhaps.

Oh, and it's purple and orange. ;)
 

O L Leigh

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Indeed. I think had 172s been workable they would have been used already, as they're also at Tyseley and a lot more reliable than 150s and 153s.

My contention is simply that the numbers of Cl172s built means that the fleet is entirely committed. There just isn't the number to even consider using them on the Marston Vale line rather than them being inherently unsuitable.
 

Bletchleyite

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My contention is simply that the numbers of Cl172s built means that the fleet is entirely committed. There just isn't the number to even consider using them on the Marston Vale line rather than them being inherently unsuitable.

There's a couple of answers to that - one of them is that if 172s were suitable for the Vale they would have perhaps ordered two more 2-car sets, and the other is that the 150 and 153 could have been used nearer base due to their unreliability and a cascade released the 2 172s from the existing fleet.

Logic would otherwise be to order two 20m DMUs (brand-new there'd be less need for the spare) but nobody makes them other than Stadler (2-car plus power car FLIRT), and those have only been even an option for a very short time.
 

O L Leigh

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My contention is that the D-Train exists solely because the chaotic and haphazard rolling stock procurement strategy created a gap into which it could fit, which your post nicely underlines. There's a lot of could have, would have, should have, but the DfT couldn't, wouldn't and didn't, and so Vivarail stepped into the breach to plug the gap which allowed the Cl150s and Cl153s to be cascaded elsewhere. Kudos to them. The question of the suitability of Cl172s for the Marston Vale has never come up because the fleet that LM were allocated by the DfT (lets not forget that the TOC has almost no control over procurement) did not make the likelihood even worthy of consideration. Had there even been the merest possibility of them ever working this service, I'm sure the infrastructure could have been looked at with a view to compatibility.
 

Bletchleyite

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I suppose you could argue that you could just as easily have ordered three more 2-car Class 195s for Northern, cascaded three 150s to Bletchley, and done a heavy rebuild on them (PRM work, new interiors, new engine and transmission). But that would probably have cost a lot more.
 
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