Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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61653 HTAFC

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OK. Thanks.
I thought that Island Line could only run with tube trains, not sub-surface ones? Isn't that why they went for the 1938 tube stock?

-Peter
That was long-held to be the case, though more recent discussion and evidence submitted to this forum suggest that vehicle length is the limiting factor rather than height: due to reverse curves within the Ryde tunnel. As the D-Stock vehicles are around 17m they should be fine apparently.
 

Peter C

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That was long-held to be the case, though more recent discussion and evidence submitted to this forum suggest that vehicle length is the limiting factor rather than height: due to reverse curves within the Ryde tunnel. As the D-Stock vehicles are around 17m they should be fine apparently.
OK. It would be interesting to see how these new trains work on the Island Line. I just hope that someone such as the NRM saves one example of the 1938 stock so people can see it for free. Surely someone can work out how to get these units from Ryde to York!

-Peter
 

700007

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OK. Thanks.
I thought that Island Line could only run with tube trains, not sub-surface ones? Isn't that why they went for the 1938 tube stock?

-Peter
The sub-surface dimensions are still slightly smaller than regular mainline stock hence they're able to get away with it. I also believe the tunnel at Ryde was modified slightly (I don't think it was intentional but just happened to be a consequence of doing such works) which allow D-stock dimension types to work the line. To my understanding part of it is also to do with the length of the carriages - anything longer than a LUL type carriage would collide with the tunnel wall.
 

Peter C

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The sub-surface dimensions are still slightly smaller than regular mainline stock hence they're able to get away with it. I also believe the tunnel at Ryde was modified slightly (I don't think it was intentional but just happened to be a consequence of doing such works) which allow D-stock dimension types to work the line. To my understanding part of it is also to do with the length of the carriages - anything longer than a LUL type carriage would collide with the tunnel wall.
OK. Thanks very much for clearing that one up for me.

-Peter
 

Neen Sollars

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Rail Live 2019 is taking place at Long Marston on 19th and 20th June. Vivarail are listed as a contributor company. No details from Vivarail as to what they will be showcasing. It would be good if they could roll out the TfW 3 car 230 DEMU which is due for early delivery to Wrexham. That would stop people trying to have a sneaky look inside the works. More likely they will showcase the latest battery, hydrogen and diesel engine packs they have jointly developed. Do any contributors here visit the event?
 

Chris125

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The tunnel supports that caused that issue have been replaced with thinner ones, so they (and I guess PEP EMUs and similar) do fit.
Alas as the twitter thread below shows it's not that straightforward - D78s fit through the tunnel and may have always done so, but they benefit from being both shorter and lower than typical mainline rolling stock - it's actually a couple of overbridges (smallbrook lane and rink road IIRC) which are tighter.

https://twitter.com/GarethDennis/status/1121055592171356161
 

DarloRich

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still decent reliability. It seems odd that the complainants above have gone silent. Apparently there was a wiring issue with the gen sets that led to them shutting down. Vivarail have fixed that.

There are a couple of issues to highlight:
  • Temperature: we don't have air con on our units ( it can be fitted apparently) and the trains have been very hot and stuffy on really hot days
  • Toilet: the toilet has been out of use far to often. There seems to be an issue with the storage of the wheelchair ramp causing the door to fail and i have seen a couple of fuse issues
  • Doors: the door sequence is far to slow causing people to panic. it can be funny watching this but overall it isnt good!
  • Doors: There have been a few mechanism failures ( but with a spare train the defective train has quickly been swapped out and fixed)
 

Bletchleyite

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  • Doors: the door sequence is far to slow causing people to panic. it can be funny watching this but overall it isnt good!
  • Doors: There have been a few mechanism failures ( but with a spare train the defective train has quickly been swapped out and fixed)
I don't know what the unions would think, but with fixed formation trains with properly placed stop boards they would be able to save minutes off the running time (an improvement for everyone) if they switched to driver release.

They also need to speed the doors back up to the way they worked on LU, they have been slowed down noticeably.
 

Bletchleyite

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it is the delay between the train stopping and the doors buttons going green that causes the problem not the speed of the actual doors.
It's both, really. To improve running times on branch lines with lots of stops like this we really need to get stop times right down - wheels not moving for about 30 seconds should be what is being aimed for, so that means doors released (and possibly directly opened) the second the hand comes off the brake handle. It takes a good 10 seconds to close the door itself!

I agree the other issue is far worse, though.
 

DarloRich

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It's both, really. To improve running times on branch lines with lots of stops like this we really need to get stop times right down - wheels not moving for about 30 seconds should be what is being aimed for. It takes a good 10 seconds to close the door itself!

I agree the other issue is far worse, though.
we still have guards not using the intermediate door controls which doesn't help!
 

krus_aragon

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Thanks for that. TfW route training on a Merseyrail unit, I presume.

I'll freely admit that I didn't know how things operated at the Bidston end, and I'm surprised to learn that a round trip to Birkenhead North is timed at 13 minutes, which is less than a TfW unit spends around shunting Bidston at the moment. It leaves me wondering why the 150s weren't already working to Birkenhead... ;)
 

Neen Sollars

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How many class 230 has been built?
3 x two car units working on the Marston Vale line for London Northwestern region trains
5 x three car units for Wrexham - Bidston line for Transport for Wales currently under construction.
2 x demonstrator units built one a three car and the other a two car.
So five class 230`s built, and five more under construction.
 

Goldfish62

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still decent reliability. It seems odd that the complainants above have gone silent. Apparently there was a wiring issue with the gen sets that led to them shutting down. Vivarail have fixed that.

There are a couple of issues to highlight:
  • Temperature: we don't have air con on our units ( it can be fitted apparently) and the trains have been very hot and stuffy on really hot days
  • Toilet: the toilet has been out of use far to often. There seems to be an issue with the storage of the wheelchair ramp causing the door to fail and i have seen a couple of fuse issues
  • Doors: the door sequence is far to slow causing people to panic. it can be funny watching this but overall it isnt good!
  • Doors: There have been a few mechanism failures ( but with a spare train the defective train has quickly been swapped out and fixed)
I'm not surprised there are ventilation issues. D Stock could be like a furnace in the Summer due to not many opening windows, but this was partly mitigated by the drop windows in the car car end doors. With gangways this is no longer possible.
 

Neen Sollars

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I'm not surprised there are ventilation issues. D Stock could be like a furnace in the Summer due to not many opening windows, but this was partly mitigated by the drop windows in the car car end doors. With gangways this is no longer possible.
Yes, it was quite a low spec order from LNWR, the TfW order is higher spec and has aircon (or similar)
 

Neen Sollars

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In previous years Vivarail had use of the Long Marston test track during the Rail Live event. This year it is Porterbrook showcasing their hydrogen 799 class of trains. See the BBC new item below, there is now a separate thread on these forums. You will note this is a very rudimentary set with all the "gubbins" in the passenger compartments. I would expect when Vivarail unveil their two car hydrogen set at the end of this year it will more or less be in a ready to go format with cells and batteries under the train. There will of course need to be extensive testing, the news feature states two to three years to see the 799 in service, but I think we have heard that before with the 769`s. Vivarail might just be in service first with both battery trains and hydrogen trains.

"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/business-48698044/hydrogen-trains-are-these-the-eco-friendly-trains-of-the-future"
 

sw1ller

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Another rumour I’ve heard. If there’s no air con in the Marston vale units by July 26th, then the drivers won’t be using them.

The TfW ones have to have aircon before they’re accepted. And that’s not a rumour.
 

Bletchleyite

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Another rumour I’ve heard. If there’s no air con in the Marston vale units by July 26th, then the drivers won’t be using them.
Cab aircon, presumably. That doesn't mean it'll be fitted to the saloons (there are EMUs in the SE with it in the cabs only - Southern 455s maybe?). But I did think they had some kind of cooling mechanism?

I can see the issue, no opening windows in the cabs, and presumably they aren't allowed to drive with the doors open unlike on LU.
 

Silverlinky

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Another rumour I’ve heard. If there’s no air con in the Marston vale units by July 26th, then the drivers won’t be using them.

The TfW ones have to have aircon before they’re accepted. And that’s not a rumour.
So if its hot on the 7th July we'll be ok as they'll still be running, but if its cooler on the 27th July we should not expect to see a train?
 
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