Crewe-Chester electrification

[YorkshireBear]

Says in june 2011 of modern railways that the dft is expected to announce electrification of crewe, and give WCML bidders chance to come up with stratergies to replace voyagers.

 

[OxtedL]

This sounds too good to be true.

VERY, VERY LATE EDIT: Very interested to hear more.

 

[The Planner]

As certain as Barca winning the Champions League this is.

 

[OxtedL]

Errr.... that's already happened... so not an ironic comment???? (Sorry, still catching up )

I'm blown away! Are they going to order in some mini-pendos then do you think?

 

[Nym]

Whatever they order, it will need to be able to run at EPS speeds.

If it's more 390s and better locomotives with witch to pull them onwards from Chester (god knows they could make them compatable to be able to control the loco from the far end)
Fingers cross they make the rest of the 390s 11 car too

 

[OxtedL]

Now I know this is far too radical (and stupid) to ever be used in practice, but could they invent some kind of specialist "pilot" loco that supplies power to the train to drive itself?

Obviously a bit advanced, but done properly it could solve all the Bi-mode woes at a stroke as well...

Sorry, silly suggestion I know.

Some 6-car Pendos would be good (possibly still this the capability to be doubled up), they could be used on Brum-Scots, possibly Manchester-Scots and maybe even Trent Valley locals...

Pushing my luck with that post...

 

[tbtc]

Would be excellent if it happens.

There's twenty five car Voyagers that (plus a couple of "spare" cabs) that could effectively be spared for the sake of a few miles of electrification (plus the cost of a 57 or two for Holyhead hauls).

Bring it on.

 

[Nym]

Now I know this is far too radical (and stupid) to ever be used in practice, but could they invent some kind of specialist "pilot" loco that supplies power to the train to drive itself?

This is gonna sound a lot more horrible than intended...

You wanna send nearly 10MW through a Dellner coupler???

Look at the size of the sets of three cables that run between the carriages on 22x units. Double the cross sectional area of that, and then you're close to what would be needed.

Next think of the fact you'd need four powerhaul engines to produce this much power.

Pendos currently use HV transmission across the roof and multiple transformers, where voyages don't use HV transmission, but 1000V 3 phase IIRC.

Yes it's possible, but it's a pain in the arse and wouldn't yeild that much benifit, the problem isn't distributing power along the unit, it can use 1 phase HV. It's getting it from loco to MU.

If the locos to pull it where say, 100 or 110mph tri axle bogie (same type as the 66 to allow it to work restricted lines), with all axles powered, and DVT'able with a 390 / 391, maybe even have the 391 able to join two together aswell, 6 car long, maybe even connectable (evenutally, with some alterations, to the 390s) So that services could split at Crewe..?

Euston - Chester & Liverpool 1tph
Euston - Liverpool & Preston 1tph
Euston - Liverpool & Manchester 1tph

3 times as many services to Liverpool and no extra paths taken up out of Euston

7 car units, 2F & 5S?

 

[tbtc]

Euston - Chester & Liverpool 1tph

Hmm, there's now the potential for dual voltage EMUs to run direct services from the Wirral peninsula to Birmingham/ London.

Plus there's one ATW DMU freed up by this (the hourly Crewe - Chester shuttle), which means they can introduce "Gerald 3" now

 

[OxtedL]

You wanna send nearly 10MW through a Dellner coupler???

Look at the size of the sets of three cables that run between the carriages on 22x units. Double the cross sectional area of that, and then you're close to what would be needed.

Next think of the fact you'd need four powerhaul engines to produce this much power.

Pendos currently use HV transmission across the roof and multiple transformers, where voyages don't use HV transmission, but 1000V 3 phase IIRC.

Yes it's possible, but it's a pain in the arse and wouldn't yeild that much benifit, the problem isn't distributing power along the unit, it can use 1 phase HV. It's getting it from loco to MU.

I was aware it's a little silly! However, I was quietly reasoning (hoping?) that since it's possible to generate enough power to drag the sodding thing anyway, it would be possible to get the thing to power itself. Entirely out there though, I realise.
Under the OxtedL Fantasy "pilot" locomotive(Registered Trademark ) scheme, you wouldn't be using the Dellner cable, but would have an extra batch of cables that could be isolated/stowed somewhere.

Anyhoo, mini-pendos definitely looks best on paper, although they would be expensive...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm, there's now the potential for dual voltage EMUs to run direct services from the Wirral peninsula to Birmingham/ London.

Plus there's one ATW DMU freed up by this (the hourly Crewe - Chester shuttle), which means they can introduce "Gerald 3" now

Well, given the whole Voyager panto car thingy (with a shoe for south of Basingstoke), that looks like a walk in the park ...

 

[Nym]

What alternative is there to more pendos or mini-pendos, you can't run stock on the WCML without EPS...

Or electrodieselifying(Now trademarked by me) the whole 221 fleet..

The only alternative I can think of is to put LHCS on more brum runs...

EDIT: I know you can run anything on the WCML, but you can't really run LDPE passenger services without EPS stock, or slowing everything down, there'd be a bloddy big que behind an IEP.

And now is the time to excersise options, while the production line is open in Italy...

 

[TheBigD]

...There's twenty five car Voyagers that (plus a couple of "spare" cabs)...

Virgin West Coast currently lease 21 x 221's. 18 x 5 car & 3 x 4 car currently formed of 20 x 5 car with 2 driving cars spare.

 

[lancastrian]

Says in june 2011 of modern railways that the dft is expected to announce electrification of crewe, and give WCML bidders chance to come up with stratergies to replace voyagers.

I read this as well. There were some comments about that as the wires might end at Chester, that Holyhead would be removed from the West Coast francise. Yet again this seems to be on the serfice a good idea, but badly thought out. Any extension of electrification is to be appauded, but they always seem to be doing it half hearted.

If the wires are extended to Chester, then they should be extended to both Llandudno & Holyhead, along with the wires being extended from Chester to warrington Bank Quay. This will enable Manchester to North Wales services to be electric.

 

[Holly]

... Euston - Chester & Liverpool 1tph

Hmm, there's now the potential for dual voltage EMUs to run direct services from the Wirral peninsula to Birmingham/ London. ...

Or from Birmingham/London via Chester and Rock Ferry to the presently unused 130metre Platform 2 at Liverpool James Street.

I'm not sure how else you could get an electric train from London to Liverpool via Chester.

 

[OxtedL]

Or from Birmingham/London via Chester and Rock Ferry to the presently unused 130metre Platform 2 at Liverpool James Street.

I'm not sure how else you could get an electric train from London to Liverpool via Chester.

Split at Crewe? (being in a semi-context of mini-Pendos)

 

[swt_passenger]

What alternative is there to more pendos or mini-pendos, you can't run stock on the WCML without EPS...

Yes you can. You are just limited to 110 mph. That's why the original IEP programme included some trains to run the Northampton fasts vice 350s. At 110 mph they use up comparatively less paths than the 350s.

 

[Nym]

Yes you can. You are just limited to 110 mph. That's why the original IEP programme included some trains to run the Northampton fasts vice 350s. At 110 mph they use up comparatively less paths than the 350s.

I knew that was coming, but I did say LDPE passenger services on the WCML without backing everything up...

Northampton Fasts aren't LDPE Passenger services...

If there where mini-pendos being ordered, I'd sudgest ordering some for the Semi Fasts up the WCML...

eg....

Northampton Fasts
Euston - Crewe via TV

Would displace the 350s, and speed up Northampton and the TV 'Slows'

So that would be a load of new 6, and longer units. 6 car for the LM routes, and 8, 9 or 10 for ICWC.

It would displace a fair number of 350s from LM for TPE (although I'd have the Manc - Scotland in the hands of ICWC using 'short' pendos, depending on what calling pattern they have)

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Says in june 2011 of modern railways that the dft is expected to announce electrification of crewe, and give WCML bidders chance to come up with stratergies to replace voyagers.

I'd be surprised if the DfT just came out with a commitment to electrify Crewe-Chester in advance of the WCML bids. Much more likely they will leave it to the bidders to include it (and the cost) in their bids, as it will have to be linked to new/converted rolling stock anyway.

Also would mean the ATW Crewe-Chester shuttle could be an EMU.
If dual-voltage it could also run up the Wirral (could turn at Hooton or Birkenhead Central or Liverpool James St). It could be run as part of the Merseyrail setup (if they could be persuaded to run trains over 60mph).
A couple of cascaded 319s would be ideal.

Technically it looks easy - already wired to Crewe Steel Works and simple 2-track beyond. They've already done clearance work for Pendolinos.
Wiring the whole layout at Chester would be expensive though.

 

[sburnley]

If Crewe Chester were to be electrified, what impact would that have on the possible electrification of Shrewsbury. If Wolverhampton - Shrewsbury were electrified there could be through services to London from Shrewsbury. If Shrewsbury - Crewe were electrified as well that could form a significant electric diversionary route from Rugby to Crewe. If Shrewsbury Chester were also electrified then there could be electric trains running both ways through Chester via Shrewsbury and Crewe to and from London.

 

[tbtc]

The cynic in me wonders whether this is designed to put pressure on the WAG to stump up the money for electrification to Holyhead if they want to maintain a decent level of service from London to North Wales?

The WAG want responsibility for infrastructure... the line as far as the Welsh border is going to be electrified... its therefore a WAG decision over whether to find the money for Holyhead electrification or not... is it just me?

 

[OxtedL]

There is clearly a lot of this kind of pressure tactics being employed at the moment... I personally think that the DfT is quietly hoping WAG will take the bill for Swansea, for instance.

Given that the service along the North Wales line is better than hourly, I would have hoped some business case could be found for electrifying it. But electrification would be little long term use here without electrifying the Marches, and you get into a whole chain of reasons why the current approach to electrification won't work for most of the country.

 

[The Planner]

Holyhead won't get wired, the next logical step as Ive mooted before is Chester to Warrington and round into Runcorn, gives you a nice diversionary route aswell. Can't see Shrewsbury getting done for a long while.

 

[Polarbear]

If this were to go ahead, I would envisage a service pattern like this;

Crewe - Chester: Hourly shuttle using a class 350 unit. This could be the present Euston - Crewe service which currently has a long layover at Crewe.

Euston - Chester: Pendolinio - Every two hours

Euston - North Wales: Voyager - Every two hours (with possible upgrade of voyager to electo-diesel mode).

The London - Chester service has been one of the major success stories of the current Virgin franchise & loadings have gone up considerably during the last few years.

As for wiring Chester, I expect that only one of the through platforms would be wired. If the plan is to just wire from Crewe, I can't see the need to wire the whole station layout. Merseyrail only have 1 platform electrified at Chester and operate a 15 minute frequency service from that.

 

[sprinterguy]

I'm not signed up to the idea of mini-Pendolinos. Virgin would have three different lengths of Pendolino, bringing the same complications of stock rostering as they have with having a fleet of 221s on specific routes, and why order new trains that have the existing poor capacity of the ones they replace when those services are already overcrowded?

There's better economies of scale to be had from having fewer different lengths of Pendolinos: Order up to 390073 as eleven carriage Pendos as well as adding the extra carriages into 390001-390031, giving 51 eleven carriage Pendolinos covering all the current Pendolino operated routes and 21 nine carriage Pendolinos to replace a similar number of VT 221s on Birmingham-Scotland and London-Chester/Holyhead. The main West Coast services are all in need of lengthening above their current nine carriage capacity, and the Voyager operated services definitely need to be longer than they currently are.

Failing that, then adding a pair of pantograph cars into the existing 221s, to make seven carriage trains, would be a step in the right direction, but I'm keen to see the 221s go to Crosscountry.

I agree with others who feel that there is currently a lot of pressure from the DfT for the WAG to provide the capital for electrification into Wales: If they want to be devolved, then they can pay for infrastructure improvements themselves!

 

[YorkshireBear]

I'm not signed up to the idea of mini-Pendolinos. Virgin would have three different lengths of Pendolino, bringing the same complications of stock rostering as they have with having a fleet of 221s on specific routes, and why order new trains that have the existing poor capacity of the ones they replace when those services are already overcrowded?

There's better economies of scale to be had from having fewer different lengths of Pendolinos: Order up to 390073 as eleven carriage Pendos as well as adding the extra carriages into 390001-390031, giving 51 eleven carriage Pendolinos covering all the current Pendolino operated routes and 21 nine carriage Pendolinos to replace a similar number of VT 221s on Birmingham-Scotland and London-Chester/Holyhead. The main West Coast services are all in need of lengthening above their current nine carriage capacity, and the Voyager operated services definitely need to be longer than they currently are.

Failing that, then adding a pair of pantograph cars into the existing 221s, to make seven carriage trains, would be a step in the right direction, but I'm keen to see the 221s go to Crosscountry.

I agree with others who feel that there is currently a lot of pressure from the DfT for the WAG to provide the capital for electrification into Wales: If they want to be devolved, then they can pay for infrastructure improvements themselves!

Completely agree, the voyagers i want to go to XC desperately. Even if they then get rid HSTs it is a very big net gain in my eyes. The would see all pendilino services extended by 2 cars and all the voyager services extended by cars. that is big and definitely worth while.

 

[anthony263]

I hope this does come off, hopefully ATW will be able to get a EMU to work the crewe - Chester shuttle, freing up a DMU to provide extra capacity in south wales

 

[lm321412]

IMO, the Chester - Crewe shuttle should be moved over to Northern upon electrification (to be worked by Class 323s or possibly Class 319s). Would save ATW operating a rogue EMU which would be extremely non-standard and I don't really see a point of it being a dual voltage service that would just to somewhere such as Birkenhead and having ATW running over Merseyrail track


Although, when the new Merseyrail EMUs arrive we could possibly have some dual volatage ones which would operate a direct Liverpool Central - Chester - Crewe service?

But no, I don't want Arriva operating a single EMU, simply because operationally it does not work out.

 

[Nym]

If northern where working it they'll be flush with 4 carrage dual voltage EMUs soon that would be able to work the route. And continue to Birkinhead, if so desired. An increase in frequency to half hourly may be on the cards for the shuttle too, but it should be operated by either LM or Northern, proberbly Northern, as there is little point in ATW having a single EMU diagram.

 

[lm321412]

If northern where working it they'll be flush with 4 carrage dual voltage EMUs soon that would be able to work the route. And continue to Birkinhead, if so desired. An increase in frequency to half hourly may be on the cards for the shuttle too, but it should be operated by either LM or Northern, proberbly Northern, as there is little point in ATW having a single EMU diagram.

Another idea is to extend the London Euston - Crewe stopping service to Chester and terminating it there, meaning Chester would now get an half hourly service to London. Would save Northern stretching their EMU fleet and save ATW running a lone unit.

 

[bluenoxid]

There is nothing wrong with Arriva operating one or two EMU's. Driver training would be a pain but if Northern has not got a driver base at Chester or Crewe??? then, it seems a very expensive solution for them to provide drivers for that service. One idea would be for Northern/Manchester-Scotland/Virgin Trains/Arriva Crewe/Longsight/London Midland to provide the maintenance of a unit allocation and Arriva to operate it. Northern would be best placed for this.

Extending London - Crewe sticks out to me as a reasonably logical solution as long as the competition issues (yes I know it runs out at the end of this franchise but it is still an issue) and timetabling can be sorted out.

There is no need to electrify the full station. Two platforms should be enough.

Personally, I can see WAG being told that upon completion of Chester electrification, they will be provided with several diesel units and it is up to them to decide how they wish to maintain the connection with London. I bet the result is an increased frequency on the route between Holyhead and Chester with trains going to Birmingham. Possibly one train remains as an OAO to London.

I fail to see why Holyhead should retain its links and it is one of a number of routes that needs a close rule run over it as it is going to sit as an awful diesel island.