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Crewe-Shrewsbury line rolling stock before 158s/Sprinters

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Philip

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I was just wondering which traction used to work both the stopping services and the longer distance services towards South Wales along this route, before the 158s started. If Sprinters worked the route for a few years, what was used immediately before the Sprinters?

Also just a couple of questions about the line; when was it upgraded to 90mph running for most of the way and does anyone know what the top speed was beforehand?
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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The longer-distance services were generally class 33 plus Mk1 coaches before Sprinters started (then generally terminating at Crewe).
Not sure about the local DMUs. There were some ancient cross-country (= slow, but comfortable) DMUs around then.
After 1963, Crewe-Marsh Farm (between Church Stretton and Craven Arms) was London Midland Region, Western south of there.
Broadly, the LMR section was the classic 75mph, while the WR section was, as now, pretty much 90mph until the Pontypool area.
The "ex-LMR" sections were upgraded to 90mph for the 158s at some point, early 90s I think, but are still 75mph for other trains.
There are still some lower restrictions on the winding sections through the Stretton hills.
The heavier 175s also take the MU speeds, but I think there was some doubt initially whether they would.
Even Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury-Chester used to be a 90mph WR line until the LMR downgraded it to 70mph (which was all that the old DMUs needed).
Shrewsbury-Gobowen, and a short section of the newly redoubled line at Rossett, was restored back to 90mph for DMUs last year.
Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury, despite carrying a lot more traffic, is still stuck at 70mph.
 
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47802

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I seem to recall that the last long distance Loco Hauled on the route were generally 37's, and they were initially replaced by 155's before the 158's arrived, a few Loco Hauled 37's were then reintroduced for a short period as a result of Door issues with the 155's
 
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PHILIPE

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Following steam, the local services were heritage DMUs and through trains used to run from Manchester and West of England and Loco Hauled, usually by 47s, but these ceased to run in 1970, the through service running between Crewe and Cardiff with, apart from a couple (part Postals/Mails at night) was a 4 train a day service worked by Class 25 locos and 4 coaches. This was maintained until there was a spell worked by Cross Country DMUs. During the mid-80s the service was worked by Class 33 and 4 carriages. There was just one Class 37 used on Cardiff to Liverpool services doing 2 trips a day. The Class 33s were replaced by the new build Class 155s and subsequently by 158s and then 175s, with a couple of 158s still left on the route, DMUs ran the local until their demise being followed by 150s and subsequently 153s.
 

Ash Bridge

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As well as 155s I can recall Class 150 & 156s being used certainly during 1989 as I photographed and travelled on a 156 during July of that year. Was this at the time of the temporary 155 withdrawals? Regarding local Crewe-Shrewsbury workings I'm sure this was in the hands of class 108 Derby Lightweight DMUs (Heart of Wales Line units) just before the Sprinters took over.
 

PHILIPE

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As well as 155s I can recall Class 150 & 156s being used certainly during 1989 as I photographed and travelled on a 156 during July of that year. Was this at the time of the temporary 155 withdrawals? Regarding local Crewe-Shrewsbury workings I'm sure this was in the hands of class 108 Derby Lightweight DMUs (Heart of Wales Line units) just before the Sprinters took over.

Yes, 156s were used for a short time while the 155s were grounded. 150s can be seen even now either substituting or, as on a Sunday, booked work.
 

Gareth Marston

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Until Sectorisation and Sprinters (1986) the Shrewsbury to Crewe locals northbound were often extensions of Cambrian services they connected with Euston trains at Shrewsbury and than ran on to Crewe. All DMU's on the weekday services at the time were Chester allocated - the 0720 ish Aberystwyth to Crewe was usually a Swindon Cross County Class 120 DMU. Everybody piled off at Shrewsbury and I usually got the front seat with the blinds up on the secondman side on my spotting trips.

The Summer Saturday North West to South West trains were still running via the Marches in 1982- there's 3 in my timetable. Would have been Class 47's.
 

Ash Bridge

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Until Sectorisation and Sprinters (1986) the Shrewsbury to Crewe locals northbound were often extensions of Cambrian services they connected with Euston trains at Shrewsbury and than ran on to Crewe. All DMU's on the weekday services at the time were Chester allocated - the 0720 ish Aberystwyth to Crewe was usually a Swindon Cross County Class 120 DMU. Everybody piled off at Shrewsbury and I usually got the front seat with the blinds up on the secondman side on my spotting trips.

The Summer Saturday North West to South West trains were still running via the Marches in 1982- there's 3 in my timetable. Would have been Class 47's.

Sounds like a bit of a downgrade when the 108s replaced the 120s on the Shrewsbury-Crewe leg then, although I would imagine the 120s were getting a little run down by then? I never realised any Cambrian Line services ever extended to Crewe, York-Aberystwyth-York TPO excepted of course. I remember travelling in June 1979 on a Saturday holiday service from Newquay back to Stockport, class 50 to Plymouth then a 47 onwards and as you say routed via the Marches Line.
 

Philip

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Thanks for the replies. One interesting thing I can remember seeing was a 142 bouncing over the canal bridge just south of Nantwich and it was mid-90s. Were these a common occurrence around this time?
 

daikilo

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I think I am right in saying that when the North-west/South-west intercity trains were moved to run via Birmingham most if not all Liverpool and Manchester services via the Marches ceased, and in particular the Bristols (and beyond). I don't know when they were reinstated but I would suggest after 1977 as I think the few loco-hauled services were Crewe terminators at the time.
 

Gareth Marston

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I think I am right in saying that when the North-west/South-west intercity trains were moved to run via Birmingham most if not all Liverpool and Manchester services via the Marches ceased, and in particular the Bristols (and beyond). I don't know when they were reinstated but I would suggest after 1977 as I think the few loco-hauled services were Crewe terminators at the time.

The InterCity reroute for all weekday and year round services via Birmingham was about 1970, however a handful of Summer Saturday diagrams remained until the early 1980's.
 

30907

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Summer 1982 record: cl 33 on Crewe-Cardiff, cl 101 on Cambrian (so probably also on Crewe stoppers).
Summer 1977: cl 25 on Crewe-Cardiff.
I didn't visit between those two, so can't comment on the Dmmu interlude.
 

randyrippley

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It wasn't unknown for 33's to haul Portsmouth-Cardiff sets on the line.....on one occasion in the late 1980's I changed at Newport from a Portsmouth line train, only to get on the same set heading north to Crewe an hour or so later....different locomotive though
 

Merthyr Imp

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From my records I travelled on:

1.7.78 - 1509 from Cardiff to Shrewsbury was double-headed by 25132 & 25063 as far as Hereford where one or both of them failed and was replaced by an unidentified Class 47.

2.8.82 - 1001 Cardiff service from Crewe - 33007 - as far as Shrewsbury.

8.11.86 - 1840 from Hereford to Crewe - 47611.

6.9.88 - A Liverpool to Cardiff service (37427) from Crewe at 1000 as far as Shrewsbury.

18.9.89 - 1610 Manchester Piccadilly service (47468) from Cardiff as far as Crewe.

9.9.92 - 1443 Manchester Piccadilly service from Cardiff (158842) as far as Shrewsbury.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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The Marches Line did go through rather a lot of changes of traction. After BR withdrew the 25s we had the 33s, available due to new build 56s and 58s releasing 47s for Southern freight workings. Of course the 33s also had ETH (from new) so helped with the long term BR goal of eliminating steam heat. The diagramming of the 33s was complex as they had to be programmed to return to Eastleigh depot at regular intervals so 3 and 4 day diagrams existed covering Portsmouth-Bristol-Cardiff, Cardiff-Crewe and Cardiff-West Wales services.

Next development was extending services beyond Crewe, either by linking to existing Crewe-North Wales services or simple extensions to Manchester. Seeing 33s at Piccadilly or Holyhead was incredibly novel at the time! However these extensions stretched the fleet a little too far and substitutions by 47s were common. There were also novel meetings with 45s which were reaching the North Wales coast on trans-Pennine services but were occasionally borrowed for the diesel-powered leg of Euston services on the route so could turn up at Crewe.

Replacement by 155s was relatively short lived thanks to the door problems with the units so 156s came next, backed up by 150s. However by now (late 1980s) passenger numbers nationally were rising and BR found that the Sprinter fleet wasn't big enough and a mini revival of loco haulage ensued. On the Marches Line this led to a small number of 37/4 powered workings to both Manchester and a newer service development to Liverpool. In due course 158s became the standard traction before 175s eventually took over.
 

Bevan Price

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The Rail Archive (formerly Timewarp) site may interest you:

http://railgenarchive.co.uk/sc/dry.php

From the 1960s onwards, those trains not loco-hauled were often worked by Class 120 dmus. By the mid-1970s, these were getting a bit unreliable and you got occasional loco-hauled replacements - typically a class 25, but occasionally a 37. Class 25 became increasingly common in the late 1970s. Class 33 first appeared in about 1981 and lasted until about 1986. Classes 47 & 37 then took over until the Sprinter era began, For many years, there were only 5 trains each way between Crewe & Cardiff in the "main part" of daytime, plus a late evening northbound service and a very early morning southbound service. .

May 1975 timetable:
Crewe to Cardiff dep. 01:47, 06:03, 10:00, 12:15, 16:00, 19:14(SX)
Cardiff to Crewe dep. 05:32, 07:50, 11:35, 15:10, 17:10, 20:00(SX)

Plus a handful of locals / short workings at each end. From memory, Chester depot provided 2 car dmus for the Crewe - Shrewsbury locals (4 southbound, 5 northbound, one semi-fast extra each way on FSO evenings)
 

Shaw S Hunter

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One minor detail I have remembered: when the extensions beyond Crewe first happened the 1815 Cardiff-Manchester swapped from a 33 to a random electric at Crewe. I suspect that sending the 33 through to Manchester to work back the next morning may have been pushing the fuel limit on the diagram.
 

Philip

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The Rail Archive (formerly Timewarp) site may interest you:

http://railgenarchive.co.uk/sc/dry.php

From the 1960s onwards, those trains not loco-hauled were often worked by Class 120 dmus. By the mid-1970s, these were getting a bit unreliable and you got occasional loco-hauled replacements - typically a class 25, but occasionally a 37. Class 25 became increasingly common in the late 1970s. Class 33 first appeared in about 1981 and lasted until about 1986. Classes 47 & 37 then took over until the Sprinter era began, For many years, there were only 5 trains each way between Crewe & Cardiff in the "main part" of daytime, plus a late evening northbound service and a very early morning southbound service. .

May 1975 timetable:
Crewe to Cardiff dep. 01:47, 06:03, 10:00, 12:15, 16:00, 19:14(SX)
Cardiff to Crewe dep. 05:32, 07:50, 11:35, 15:10, 17:10, 20:00(SX)

Plus a handful of locals / short workings at each end. From memory, Chester depot provided 2 car dmus for the Crewe - Shrewsbury locals (4 southbound, 5 northbound, one semi-fast extra each way on FSO evenings)

Thank you, that's a great source! I had in mind that the long distance workings to South Wales were still running at a two-hourly frequency even up to 2001 (ie. the end of the Wales and West franchise). Was it around this time that it went to hourly?

On a separate point, has the Crewe and Shrewsbury always had rather loud track noise? There's a section of the line at Wrenbury which has been producing the 'roar' over at least the last 20 years. I know through my trips on the canal which is nearby at this point, you can hear the sound of the wheels on the rails screaming across the countryside there!
 

daodao

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I travelled on this route once as teenager in 1968 on a Motorail service from Newton (le Willows) to Newton (Abbot) & back.

I then used the route regularly between 1984 and 2005 when I lived in Cardiff. The re-introduction of through trains from M/c in 1984 was very useful, although there were at most only 2/day until the class 155 sprinters were introduced in the late 1980s, and at one point they were suspended. I recall complaining to Regional Railways about this withdrawal - through trains are very useful for those who are more infirm. My late mother had her first angina attack when crossing the footbridge at Crewe station to change trains, on returning from visiting me in Cardiff. The introduction of the sprinters, with more frequent services mostly extended to M/c, was a welcome improvement.

In 1984 the semi-fast trains were class 33 hauled, with electric class 86 locos provided between M/c and Crewe. Later, class 37s were used, and on one occasion a class 40 (that service was very late).
 

Hornet

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A couple of shots from the 30th April 1983

Nantwich:- 08:00 Cardiff Central to Crewe.

Nantwich-M.jpg

Prees:- 09:20 Crewe to Shrewsbury

Prees-M.jpg
 

Taunton

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We used the line regularly in the 1960s-70s, from Liverpool to (inevitably) Taunton. I realise I haven't actually been on it since. The Swindon-built 120 dmus monopolised the Newport-Shrewsbury workings which were not long distance expresses from when they were built, about 1959, right until the Sprinters came along, that included the Central Wales line, for which a few were fitted with special headlights. By the 1980s some of these were turned over to loco haulage, as described above, but not all. The locals on to Crewe were run initially by 108s, there being a longstanding divide at Shrewsbury which only the couple of loco hauled services a day crossed. Very slowly after the LMR 1963 transfer this division was broken down, but it lasted a long time. The Cambrian lines dieselised quite late on, after the LMR takeover, and used various spare dmus, mostly Met-Cam, which however were generally integrated with Wolverhampton services from Shrewsbury, rather than Crewe.

Very first trip was actually with a Castle, the longest loco run on the WR, on the Plymouth-Liverpool day train, a lodging turn for, strangely, a Newton Abbot loco and crew, who took over from a Plymouth loco and worked through to Shrewsbury, where it was loco change to an LMR Black 5 to Crewe, and then another change to an electric for the last lap to Liverpool. Old boundaries died hard. Warship diesels took over and ran for a few years, all the way from Plymouth to Crewe. This was a bit too far for their tank capacity, especially in the winter with the train heating boiler in use, and next trip the Warship failed in the open country between Shrewsbury and Whitchurch, having run out of fuel, so we were eventually propelled forward and then taken on to Crewe by a Shrewsbury Black 5 anyway! After a couple of years Class 47s took over from Bristol TM to Crewe (crews west of Bristol only signed hydraulics for many years), and were long associated with the route for the major expresses, and most of the freight, although the expresses were notably reduced after about 1970, passengers being rerouted via Birmingham.

I travelled on this route once as teenager in 1968 on a Motorail service from Newton (le Willows) to Newton (Abbot) & back.
Us too, we took the car in 1966. Class 47 all the way from Earlestown West Curve to Newton Abbot. What hauled us the first two miles from Newton-le-Willows to the reversal at Earlestown, though? A Warrington Black 5, sent up to get the train marshalled the right way round. Anyone else had the family car steam hauled?
 

muddythefish

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The North West route was fantastic in the 1960s, very busy with WR to the north expresses hauled by Castles, Halls, Jubilees, Black 5s and early Brush Type 4s and Warships. Great days.
 

6Gman

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Summer 1982 record: cl 33 on Crewe-Cardiff, cl 101 on Cambrian (so probably also on Crewe stoppers).
Summer 1977: cl 25 on Crewe-Cardiff.
I didn't visit between those two, so can't comment on the Dmmu interlude.

I think DMUs preceded the 25 workings. When I went to Uni in 1976 25s dominated the route; in my schooldays (say 1970-75) the C rewe - Cardiff were usually 2 x 3car Cross Country units with (usually) a Bubble Car attached for additional power (locked out of use to passengers).

I do recall that failed units were occasionally replaced by 37s and on one very memorable occasion by a Hymek!
 

MatthewRead

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I heard on the 158 history thread that the first welsh 158 arrived at Cardiff Canton on 31st October 1990 and the Cambrian Coast line was the first line in Wales to get them so how long was it before they started on the Marches line through Shrewsbury?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Of course, the principal services over the North and West used to be from the NW to Bristol and beyond, with just a few to Cardiff/Swansea.
It carried the Manchester-Plymouth sleeper, and portions from Glasgow as well as Manchester/Liverpool.
After these trains were diverted via Birmingham (except the Cardiffs), Motorail traffic continued from Newton-le-Willows or Crewe to Newton Abbot or St Austell.
The York-Swansea mail train (via Central Wales) was another fixture, later running over the Cambrian to Aberystwyth.
Very gradually, the attractions of this route are coming back, if only to avoid the black hole of Birmingham New St.
Some through trains via Bristol would be the icing on the cake.
I think we are very lucky for this line not to have been physically downgraded by BR, mainly thanks to the steel traffic to Dee Marsh.
Unfortunately the recent coal traffic revival from the Bristol Channel ports looks to be dead.

My most memorable run was a nominally non-stop Motorail from Newton le Willows to St Austell in, I think 1972.
Restaurant car all the way serving breakfast from Warrington, lunch from Bristol and tea from Plymouth!
Class 47 all the way, crew changes at Crewe and Bristol.

Another curiosity was that the long-distance trains on the route were always LMR stock, despite often having WR locos.
None of your 4-a-side no-armrest WR compartments thanks.
Why did WR/SR mainline stock never have armrests, while the other regions did?
 

muddythefish

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My most memorable run was a nominally non-stop Motorail from Newton le Willows to St Austell in, I think 1972.
Restaurant car all the way serving breakfast from Warrington, lunch from Bristol and tea from Plymouth!
Class 47 all the way, crew changes at Crewe and Bristol.
?

Fantastic ! Proper trains with proper locomotives and proper carriages and a restaurant car.... from the days when the railways were a proper "service" instead of driven by accountants and profits. People who think the modern railway is better with its toytown rolling stock and dismal facilities are deluded.

Didn't realise the regional differences in Mark One coaches. I know they were all warm and comfy even on non-Commonwealth bogies.
 

Ash Bridge

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I heard on the 158 history thread that the first welsh 158 arrived at Cardiff Canton on 31st October 1990 and the Cambrian Coast line was the first line in Wales to get them so how long was it before they started on the Marches line through Shrewsbury?

This slide is dated June 1991 and I would guess it was shot roughly a month or so previously. This was a Manchester Piccadilly- Cardiff Central service at Hereford which I had travelled on from Shrewsbury, from memory the 158s had only just started on these workings at that point and I recall this particular set was like brand new internally with the aircon doing a grand job on what was a rather warm day. Note it was paired up with a 155 Super Sprinter.
 

muddythefish

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This slide is dated June 1991 and I would guess it was shot roughly a month or so previously. This was a Manchester Piccadilly- Cardiff Central service at Hereford which I had travelled on from Shrewsbury, from memory the 158s had only just started on these workings at that point and I recall this particular set was like brand new internally with the aircon doing a grand job on what was a rather warm day. Note it was paired up with a 155 Super Sprinter.


Lovely photo but you can't help think that a 3-car dmu instead of what would likely have been at least 10 compartment coaches including a restaurant car previously hauled by a fine locomotive (steam or diesel), rail travel is not what it used to be.
 
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