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Crewe to Alsager single line section

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railnerd

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Hi.
What have i started? :(

Actually, this is the response i wanted. To see who believes in redoubling and who doesnt.

I believe the cost cutting side of it all, just like Kings Lynn to Ely, albeit with the 'giant loops' at the stations.
 
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thenorthern

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Hi.
What have i started? :(

Actually, this is the response i wanted. To see who believes in redoubling and who doesnt.

I believe the cost cutting side of it all, just like Kings Lynn to Ely, albeit with the 'giant loops' at the stations.

I would like to see a re-doubling as I think it is useful for diversions and freight trains that use the line although I think it made sense to single it as a cost cutting exercise at the time.
 

QueensCurve

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Hi.
Random question: Why is the first few miles of track to the east of Crewe towards Alsager singled?
Was it just a cost cutting excercise back in the day?

I know i should know the answer but i dont! :D

1st time I have looked at this thread - apologies for any duplication.

The section was singled in 1985 during the 7 week blockade in June and July for the Crewe Remodelling.

No doubt just "rationalisation" of a line that was not then electrified and had few services.

The line was electrified in, I think, 2003 so it could be used as a diversionary route between Crewe and Stafford during the ill-fated WCRM. I seem to recall there was some talk of redoubling it at that time, but it didn't happen.

There is now a more intensive service on the route since it has the hourly Euston to Crewe service. It is also used more often as a diversionary route now that it is electrified.

Interestingly a new road is being built crossing the route just outside Crewe. A new rail over road bridge has been built. This is obviously designed for 2 tracks and not just one.

Does this imply that the line is to be redoubled or is it just "passive provision"?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Skegness, for a time at least.

So bracing. But your point exactly?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Wasn't this another of the 1980s schemes that was reduced beyond the point of common sense in order to bring down costs to a level where authorisation would be given (like Leicester MAS, etc)?

I certainly understood that the original plans were for a significantly faster Manchester junction amongst other things. (It could never be fast, of course, but I heard that 40/45 could have been got rather than the present 20 which is actually significantly more restrictive than the former layout.)

Incidentally, does anyone know if anything has been done to improve the run in from the down fast to platform 6, for which the 1980s scheme provided some nicely restrictive approach control?

Also, wasn't it intended that the speed on the up and down fast lines through the station should be 100, but then someone discovered that the pillars supporting the roofs were too close to the tracks to allow that?

I believe the 1985 proposal was downgraded somewhat. It always grates with me that the Down Slow to Down Fast turnout at the North Junction is 20mph - very restrictive and very energy-consuming for the pendolini. Similarly the 20mph 5 to Up Fast turnout seems unduly restrictive and could easily be changed.

As I understand it, although the Up and Down Through lines have a limit of 80mph, the pendolini can use an EPS of 100mph.

More information about the approach control on the 50mph turnout from the Down Fast to P6 would be interesting.
 
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The Planner

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Passive provision, pretty much written into all remits now. Much like the rebuilding of the A45 bridge at Birmingham International, room for 4 tracks but very unlikely to happen.
 

QueensCurve

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I don't remember anyone reporting that redoubling would involve much expense. Would it?
Also the redoubling of the Reddish line, mentioned earlier. I see on Street View that crossing the M60 is no big deal, but are there other problems with that one?

Maybe a typo, but it is the M6 that goes over the route. This bridge was put in when the line was double so it should be no problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What would the redoubling be for? If we can't deal with 4tph over a short bit of single track then we might as well all go home now.

On occasions like this weekend when it is used as a diversionary route more capacity is surely needed?

In Switzerland intensive services are run on single lines (eg4tph+ betwixt Zermatt and Taesch) but they can keep the trains running on time.:D

It might help efficiency and capacity if down trains could have a linespeed turnout into the single line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Passive provision, pretty much written into all remits now. Much like the rebuilding of the A45 bridge at Birmingham International, room for 4 tracks but very unlikely to happen.

I did wonder if there might be scope for an increase in the speed limit close in to crewe and a faster single/double line junction slightly further out from Crewe.
 
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The Planner

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On occasions like this weekend when it is used as a diversionary route more capacity is surely needed?

Don't fall into the "just in case" trap, how often does this level of diversion happen? Not often and never enough to justify the expense. Posters could come up with a 500 page list of nice to haves and "if we had that then this event wouldn't have happened" etc. Like I posted earlier, if the line suddenly required 7 or 8tph all day every day then yes you could have a case, otherwise no.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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As I understand it, although the Up and Down Through lines have a limit of 80mph, the pendolini can use an EPS of 100mph.

There's no EPS between Basford Hall Jn and Crewe Coal Yard, according to the SA.
I don't use the non-stop trains through Crewe, but I presume they are the only ones which do not suffer approach control?
Access to the Stoke line is very slow, quite apart from the single line.
Stoke-bound trains always seem to go out "wrong line" and pass an incoming train stopped on the loop.
At the very least you would expect a fast route Stafford-Warrington via P6/P11, and the reverse via P5/P1.
The way the Down Slow runs into the Up Slow before the station also seems very restrictive.
Trains often go southbound in parallel on Fast/Slow to Basford Hall, but very rarely northbound.
 
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Ash Bridge

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Maybe a typo, but it is the M6 that goes over the route. This bridge was put in when the line was double so it should be no problem.

No, HowardGWR was correct, it is indeed the M60 that passes under the Heaton Norris - Guide Bridge line.
 

Class 170101

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I believe the cost cutting side of it all, just like Kings Lynn to Ely, albeit with the 'giant loops' at the stations.

I understood Ely to Kings Lynn was because the masts kept disappearing into the Fens so BR used the track bed as it was solid - apparently.
 

Senex

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At the very least you would expect a fast route Stafford-Warrington via P6/P11, and the reverse via P5/P1.
The way the Down Slow runs into the Up Slow before the station also seems very restrictive.

In the up direction you've got flashing double yellows on CY102, flashing yellow on CY25, before a steady yellow on CE144 for the 60mph turnout up fast to up slow (=platform 6 line). So that's always been very good. However, as has been pointed out, getting back on to the up fast at the south end of the station is quite a different matter, with its 20mph connection which always was far too slow for the acceleration of electric trains and is a total nonsense with the high-acceleration Pendolinos. But you'd need to sacrifice some platform length to do anything about it.

Down is a quite different matter. There are flashing double yellows on BH11, flashing yellow on CE103, then steady yellow on CE107 -- but that's for the 60mph turnout down fast to up fast, not for the 50mph turnout down fast to platform 6 which gets the real old-fashioned treatment! (I may be talking through the top of my head here, but my understanding was that flashing yellows couldn't be used for platform 6 too because of that 10mph speed-differential in the turnouts.)

Curiously, there are also flashing double yellows on CE103, flashing single yellow on CE107, then steady yellow on CE153 for the turnout from the down fast to the down slow north of the station, which means in turn full old-fashioned approach control for the 20mph turnout from the down fast towards Manchester also protected by CE153.
 

thenorthern

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If I remember correctly the London Midland trains that run via Alsager were introduced in December 2008 so that Stone could receive a regular service again and otherwise its unlikely that the the London Midland service would have been routed via Stoke-on-Trent.

When the Alsager line was electrified in 2003 the only purpose of the electrification was so it could be used as a diversionary route and there were no plans for the Trent Valley London Midland service. Had Network Rail known at the time that this service was going to be introduced then they would have probably doubled the single track section.
 

QueensCurve

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No, HowardGWR was correct, it is indeed the M60 that passes under the Heaton Norris - Guide Bridge line.

I thought the question regarded Crewe to Alsager.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In the up direction you've got flashing double yellows on CY102, flashing yellow on CY25, before a steady yellow on CE144 for the 60mph turnout up fast to up slow (=platform 6 line). So that's always been very good. However, as has been pointed out, getting back on to the up fast at the south end of the station is quite a different matter, with its 20mph connection which always was far too slow for the acceleration of electric trains and is a total nonsense with the high-acceleration Pendolinos. But you'd need to sacrifice some platform length to do anything about it.

Down is a quite different matter. There are flashing double yellows on BH11, flashing yellow on CE103, then steady yellow on CE107 -- but that's for the 60mph turnout down fast to up fast, not for the 50mph turnout down fast to platform 6 which gets the real old-fashioned treatment! (I may be talking through the top of my head here, but my understanding was that flashing yellows couldn't be used for platform 6 too because of that 10mph speed-differential in the turnouts.)

Curiously, there are also flashing double yellows on CE103, flashing single yellow on CE107, then steady yellow on CE153 for the turnout from the down fast to the down slow north of the station, which means in turn full old-fashioned approach control for the 20mph turnout from the down fast towards Manchester also protected by CE153.

Thank you for that. I have wondered if the 1985 remodelling provided 60mph routes between the slow lines north and south of the station via the through with a view at the time to potential closure of the independent lines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The way the Down Slow runs into the Up Slow before the station also seems very restrictive.
Trains often go southbound in parallel on Fast/Slow to Basford Hall, but very rarely northbound.

There is in effect a bottleneck at Crewe South Junction where the main line is only 3 tracks.

The Down Slow running into the Up Slow before the station may have been appropriate when it was designed, but it seems possible that more passenger trains will be routed on the Slow lines between Stafford and Crewe with the 100mph upgrade and the advent of the Norton Bridge Flyover. In which case would some change to allow parallel movements on the Up and Down Slow be appropriate?
 

The Planner

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Down is a quite different matter. There are flashing double yellows on BH11, flashing yellow on CE103, then steady yellow on CE107 -- but that's for the 60mph turnout down fast to up fast, not for the 50mph turnout down fast to platform 6 which gets the real old-fashioned treatment! (I may be talking through the top of my head here, but my understanding was that flashing yellows couldn't be used for platform 6 too because of that 10mph speed-differential in the turnouts.)

I've no doubt a signalling expert will be along to correct but I was under the impression you can't have two routes with flashing aspects from the same starting signal, it is either one or the other. The 10mph differential is for approach control in general, not just flashers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is in effect a bottleneck at Crewe South Junction where the main line is only 3 tracks.

The Down Slow running into the Up Slow before the station may have been appropriate when it was designed, but it seems possible that more passenger trains will be routed on the Slow lines between Stafford and Crewe with the 100mph upgrade and the advent of the Norton Bridge Flyover. In which case would some change to allow parallel movements on the Up and Down Slow be appropriate?

Doubt it, and as said before, nothing will get done to Crewe until the Hs2 layout is decided on.
 

6Gman

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Don't fall into the "just in case" trap, how often does this level of diversion happen? Not often and never enough to justify the expense. Posters could come up with a 500 page list of nice to haves and "if we had that then this event wouldn't have happened" etc. Like I posted earlier, if the line suddenly required 7 or 8tph all day every day then yes you could have a case, otherwise no.

Once again our Planner friend gets it spot on.

It would be useful if this 3 miles could be redoubled, especially during Stafford blockages - but for (maximum) 6-7 days per annum?

I think not.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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In the up direction you've got flashing double yellows on CY102, flashing yellow on CY25, before a steady yellow on CE144 for the 60mph turnout up fast to up slow (=platform 6 line). So that's always been very good. However, as has been pointed out, getting back on to the up fast at the south end of the station is quite a different matter, with its 20mph connection which always was far too slow for the acceleration of electric trains and is a total nonsense with the high-acceleration Pendolinos. But you'd need to sacrifice some platform length to do anything about it.

Down is a quite different matter. There are flashing double yellows on BH11, flashing yellow on CE103, then steady yellow on CE107 -- but that's for the 60mph turnout down fast to up fast, not for the 50mph turnout down fast to platform 6 which gets the real old-fashioned treatment! (I may be talking through the top of my head here, but my understanding was that flashing yellows couldn't be used for platform 6 too because of that 10mph speed-differential in the turnouts.)

Curiously, there are also flashing double yellows on CE103, flashing single yellow on CE107, then steady yellow on CE153 for the turnout from the down fast to the down slow north of the station, which means in turn full old-fashioned approach control for the 20mph turnout from the down fast towards Manchester also protected by CE153.

That's very informative about the signalling.
All I know is that southbound, I can't recall a clear run on the Up Fast into P5, with a gradually reducing speed.
You always get severely checked a long way out (on the far outskirts of Crewe), and then recover somewhat before Crewe North.
Northbound into P6 it can be a bit better, but is still not a smooth process.
Given these are the principal routes through Crewe, and don't involve any of the branches, you'd think they would have a more efficient setup.
I appreciate nothing much is going to change this side of HS2.
 

Railsigns

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I've no doubt a signalling expert will be along to correct but I was under the impression you can't have two routes with flashing aspects from the same starting signal, it is either one or the other.

You can, subject to certain criteria being met, one of which is a speed differential of no more than 10 mph between the diverging routes.

The 10mph differential is for approach control in general, not just flashers.

That's a slightly different matter. You can have a free aspect on a diverging route provided the speed of the divergence is no lower than 10 mph than that of the straight route.
 

thenorthern

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Looking at old timetables I know Arriva Trains Wales used to operate 1 trains per day along the line and so did Virgin Trains just after the west coast upgrade was completed in 2003.

Before the line was electrified Central Trains ran their last two trains each day from Liverpool to Birmingham via Alsager which I stopped in 2002.

Currently other than the regular booked passenger services two CrossCountry services are booked use the line each day for route retaining purposes as well as empty stock movements by Northern Rail and Arriva Trains Wales. There is also some locomotive moves from Derby to Crewe and several coal trains from Liverpool Bulk Terminal to Radcliffe on Sour Power Station.
 

The Planner

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You can, subject to certain criteria being met, one of which is a speed differential of no more than 10 mph between the diverging routes.

How does that work then? If you have a flashing sequence for two routes with the double yellow at the same place, how does the driver know what route he is getting?
 

Railsigns

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How does that work then? If you have a flashing sequence for two routes with the double yellow at the same place, how does the driver know what route he is getting?

He doesn't (at least, not until he sees the route indicator on the junction signal), but the point is it doesn't matter. If it did matter, the criteria for having a flashing sequence for both routes wouldn't be satisfied and an alternative arrangement would have to be adopted.
 
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Senex

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You can, subject to certain criteria being met, one of which is a speed differential of no more than 10 mph between the diverging routes.

So presumably in the Crewe case, given that it's 60 to the up fast and 50 to the down slow (pl.6) which fits the "no more than 10" (rather than a "10 or more"), one of the other "certain criteria" must be the problem. Do you have any idea what it might be?
 

Railsigns

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So presumably in the Crewe case, given that it's 60 to the up fast and 50 to the down slow (pl.6) which fits the "no more than 10" (rather than a "10 or more"), one of the other "certain criteria" must be the problem. Do you have any idea what it might be?

I can't see any obvious reason why the situation at Crewe doesn't meet the criteria outlined in the current standards. However, different standards applied when Crewe was resignalled in 1985, and at that time a flashing yellow sequence could only apply to more than one route from the same signal if they were of equal speed.
 

driver_m

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THis 10mph differential thats mentioned. Is that not for being able to give a route indicator AND run on steady greens? ie at Nuneation up slow to up fast at attleborough doing 75 and then going through a 65 crossover and at Rugby getting route indicator at pl5 75 going through 70 crossover. (sorry if i've come up with something completely different and the original point mentioned is actually right!) It seems strange that flashing yellows couldn't be used to put you in pl6 at Crewe off the Down Fast. But strange decisions will always happen, like not using flashing yellows to access pl1 at Rugby, instead using the flashing sequence for Hillmorton which must be a rare move.
 

Senex

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I can't see any obvious reason why the situation at Crewe doesn't meet the criteria outlined in the current standards. However, different standards applied when Crewe was resignalled in 1985, and at that time a flashing yellow sequence could only apply to more than one route from the same signal if they were of equal speed.

Thanks. I wondered if that might be the case but couldn't recall any mention of a change of the speed differentials regulation.
 

Whistler40145

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IIRC during the Crewe remodelling, there was a curve from the Stoke line to the WCML and this was removed.

If more trains were to run via Stoke, then the line could be doubled from Bartholmley Junction to Crewe South Junction, otherwise I can't see it happening.
 

kevconnor

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Looking at old timetables I know Arriva Trains Wales used to operate 1 trains per day along the line and so did Virgin Trains just after the west coast upgrade was completed in 2003.

Before the line was electrified Central Trains ran their last two trains each day from Liverpool to Birmingham via Alsager which I stopped in 2002.

Currently other than the regular booked passenger services two CrossCountry services are booked use the line each day for route retaining purposes as well as empty stock movements by Northern Rail and Arriva Trains Wales. There is also some locomotive moves from Derby to Crewe and several coal trains from Liverpool Bulk Terminal to Radcliffe on Sour Power Station.

Would the principle purpose of Northern and ATW routing ECS via Alsager also be for route knowledge. I have previously noted TPE routing a regular ECS via Rochdale and could only come to the conclusion it was for this purpose.
 
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