Crisis at Bus Eireann

[Robertj21a]

Sympathy striking shouldn't be allowed, you should only be allowed to strike if you have an issue with your employer in my view.

Quite - hence my comment about the laws affecting Union activities. They appear to need rewriting for the 21st century.

 

[F Great Eastern]

School Bus Drivers and Irish Rail ballots show that they have both voted to strike in sympathy along with Dublin Bus.

Now looking at a full Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and School Transport strike sometime towards the end of May or early June using High School Leaving exams as leverage.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Unions have voted FOR the proposals recommended at the Labour Court in full. Therefore this particular dispute is now over and all previous ballots and suspended strike action has finished and a line has been drawn under it.

Now the Bus Eireann Board will present their business plan to staff next Monday which will formally set about showing how they are going to put the revised terms & conditions into practice and also outline changes to practices that do not effect terms and conditions.

Looking ahead the unions are proposing a multi-stakeholder forum where they look certain to argue for regulatory changes to reduce private sector involvement in the industry to one which gives preference to public operators and reduces the allowed limited competition on intercity services.

It is by no means certain that the boards plans and the stake-holder forum will result in the unions sitting up and agreeing to whatever is decided, therefore further industrial unrest cannot be ruled out further down the line, but I can't see there being any threats of strikes for at least 2-3 months.

 

[Mwanesh]

These guys want to have a monopoly and hold the nation to ransom.If they did a good job no private operator would muscle in on them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If they did a good job no private operator would muscle in on them.

Well that's not even remotely true. Private operators will muscle in on any lucrative flow.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Well that's not even remotely true. Private operators will muscle in on any lucrative flow.

Only two licenses are allowed per route to reward innovation and they must be time separated from the competition by 15-30 minutes depending on the type of service being operated, and serve different bus stops to their competitors

BE's problem initially was that when a second operator moved in on their existing route, the new operator had services that started earlier, finished later, more frequent, used higher quality vehicles and had better journey times.

Then when the motorway opening and improvement work started Bus Eireann believed that there would be no demand for non stop services, so decided that they would not pursue direct services, as there was not enough possible demand from passengers, despite the fact that many people believed there was demand.

The private operators applied for direct routes on many corridors and made them a huge success achieving a large modal share shift and have attracted large increases in public transport usage, some of the key corridors have seen passenger numbers increased by over 50%

The problem for BE is by the time that they realised their mistakes, the two licenses for motorway services were already taken by private operators who decided that there was demand and BE have lost a number of passengers to these services and are now left with mostly free travel pass holders and people going to/from the intermediate small towns/villages.

BE refused to offer services the public demanded and the privates started to offer them, whilst the cost base in the organisation has become out of control over the years because of the direct award contracts for 95% of bus services in the state, which has meant the company has not needed to operate efficiently are the two major reasons that we ended up in the position that we did.

The regulatory regime since 2009 operates on a "customer first" basis rather than the "operator and staff first" basis the previous regime did.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The problem for BE is by the time that they realised their mistakes, the two licenses for motorway services were already taken by private operators who decided that there was demand and BE have lost a number of passengers to these services and are now left with mostly free travel pass holders and people going to/from the intermediate small towns/villages.

BE's problem has always been the parochial nature of Irish politics. My understanding and belief is more that BE were caught between a rock and a hard place: they knew that direct services would be popular, but they knew that they couldn't withdraw services from the intermediate towns now bypassed by the motorways, and that there wasn't enough demand to sustain both an express bus and a stopper.

And you know what? There isn't. That's why BE are struggling against the private operators who've cherrypicked the key flows and abandoned the smaller intermediate towns.

Aircoach knock BE out of the water between Dublin and Cork because BE still serve the intermediate towns and Aircoach don't. But BE pulling out of the intermediate towns is politically impossible (and that's mainly why they've gone in with GoBus IIRC).

 

[F Great Eastern]

My understanding and belief is more that BE were caught between a rock and a hard place: they knew that direct services would be popular, but they knew that they couldn't withdraw services from the intermediate towns now bypassed by the motorways, and that there wasn't enough demand to sustain both an express bus and a stopper.

You have it completely wrong, Bus Eireann for years said there was no demand, this is not something that I am making-up, Bus Eireann management themselves have admitted that they felt there was no demand and the staff themselves have admitted on many forums, in the media and in debates that they told their employer that non stop services were needed and the company said that there was no demand at all.

Bus Eireann can withdraw services if they want to just like any other commercial operator or change them, subject to the licensing conditions that everyone has to adhere to. Every single intercity operator in Ireland has had political pressure not to change services at sometime or other, Aircoach had it in the past, JJ Kavanagh have had it, Citylink have had it, this is not something related to just Bus Eireann, everyone has the same rules since 2009.

And you know what? There isn't. That's why BE are struggling against the private operators who've cherrypicked the key flows and abandoned the smaller intermediate towns.

People who call it cherry-picking is laughable because the regulatory regime does not allow cherry-picking and creaming off others investments and regulations that discriminates against one operator over another or if there was all out deregulation I'd agree with you there is cherry-picking and the chance to piggy-back on investment which discourages investment in public transport services, but that is not the case here.

Expressway has been hit by poor commercial management because many of it never had to deal with any kind of commercial environment, powerful unions which have weakened the ability of management to run the company without confrontation and having to run everything by the staff, an out of control cost base and the fact that other companies gave people services BE would not.

BE up until 2009 had a regulatory regime which prioritized them before the greater good of the public, it was almost impossible for a private to get a license, because BE had a legal right to veto any regardless of any impact on the customers, which is why many people called the department of transport before that point as essentially a downtown office of CIE.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Aircoach knock BE out of the water between Dublin and Cork because BE still serve the intermediate towns and Aircoach don't.

Aircoach were always the most pro-active and customer focused operator on that route, even before they started the express services in April 2012 and abandoned the Towns in June 2012, The Bus Eireann route to Cork, like a lot of routes on the Expressway network, it suffered from a lack of service development over many years, way before the motorways were even finished being built, let alone people starting non stop services.

Before any non-stop services started on Dublin to Cork and any pulling out fo Towns:

Bus Eireann:
- Operated six services a day between Dublin City and Cork
- Services from Dublin/Cork at 8am/10am/12pm/2pm/4pm/6pm
- Didn't serve Dublin Airport.
- Didn't offer Wifi
- Had a 40 minute break mid journey
- Took 4hr 20 mins.

Aircoach
- Operated eight services a day between Dublin Airport and Cork
- Services from Dublin at: 7am/9am/11am/1pm/3pm/5pm/7pm/8pm
- Services from Cork at: 1am/7am/9am/11am/1pm/3pm/5pm/7pm
- Served Dublin Airport
- Offered Wifi
- Had a 15 minute break mid journey
- Took 3hr 50 mins

The simple fact is that offering six services a day between the two biggest cities in the country wasn't serving the passengers well, the fact that Bus Eireann simply sat on the same timetable for about 6-7 years without a change is exactly why private operators are badly needed in Ireland, because time and time again it has been shown that the only time they change their commercially run services appears to be when someone else does.

You claim that BE cannot drop any Town's but they have done exactly that, a few weeks after Aircoach launching their express runs they dropped half of the Town's on their route and reducing running time by a huge amount which all the people in the industry knew was not possible. Bus Eireann were forced into climbdown a short while later when they had to recast the timetable by adding 20 minutes to the running time with no change of routing.

Until recently Aircoach were operating 36 services a day on the Dublin to Cork corridor and were still requiring reliefs on a regular basis to the point where last month they increased it to 41 services a day and still are requiring reliefs because they are providing services which people want, which is after all what public transport is all about.

I can tell you that when there were 14 services a day in each direction servicing all of the mostly small towns on average 80% of the traffic was Dublin to Cork and 20% was to or from the small towns. It was only the Dublin to Cork passengers that made that level of service to the mostly small towns viable in the first place. Certainly the small towns still need a service, but when the motorway was finished and the Dublin to Cork passengers were gone, this never was going to be sustainable.

 

[F Great Eastern]

and that's mainly why they've gone in with GoBus IIRC).

Aircoach was issued a license for Dublin to Cork direct in late 2011 and GoBus was issued with one in I think March 2012, meaning that no more express licenses would be issued on Dublin to Cork.

Generally an operator doesn't start properly route planning or getting their service in order until they have the license so there is normally at least around 3 months between an operator getting a license and starting services to get the vehicles and staff in the door to operate them.

The problem that GoBus had was that by the time they got the license Aircoach were just about to start themselves and the best case that GoBus had would maybe they could start maybe two and a half months later after getting a license.

In addition GoBus had neither a Dublin nor a Cork base and had no bus stop infrastructure that it could use at the Cork end, both aspects which would have required substantial investment and would have to build up their service from nothing against two established operators, one of which who was operating the same USP as them.

In the end GoBus decided that they felt that the investment in the service was not viable in light of the above, so looked for partners and those partners ended up being Bus Eireann and Bernard Kavanagh. Bus Eireann provided marketing support and the bus stop infrastructure, whilst Bernard Kavanagh provided the drivers and vehicles from it's bases in Dublin and Cork.

Essentially GoBE is a marriage of convenience for both companies involved in it, Bus Eireann can't have any involvement in the route without GoBus and GoBus can't really operate it successfully without the support of Bus Eireann and it's facilities and marketing reach.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Plans to transform bus services in Ireland released:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/BusConnects_Brochure_Final.pdf

Spoke to a Bus Eireann driver earlier, saying the unions will not allow control to pass from the operators to a TFL style organisation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's the phrase? "Tough ...."?

 

[TUC]

Plans to transform bus services in Ireland released:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/BusConnects_Brochure_Final.pdf

Spoke to a Bus Eireann driver earlier, saying the unions will not allow control to pass from the operators to a TFL style organisation.

Don't see how they can stop it in the end. Unions are not the government.

 

[Robertj21a]

Don't see how they can stop it in the end. Unions are not the government.

Shhhh........ don't tell them that, they don't like anybody reminding them of things they don't like. Certainly not facts.

 

[F Great Eastern]

NBRU has issued the following statement in response to the plan

“the Department of Transport and the NTA are becoming more and more involved in the employer/employee relationship by dent of both the decision making process and the continuous, almost daily interference in industrial relations matters at the three CIÉ Companies.

For our part, the NBRU has absolutely no issue with the policy maker and the regulator becoming involved in the minutiae of the pivotal relationship between employer and employee, once they are at the discussion/negotiating table on a regular basis, otherwise they would do well to butt out and stop interfering.

The NBRU has recently written to Minister Ross in relation to the establishment of the Forum we have long been calling for and which has recently been endorsed by the Labour Court, in order that issues, such as todays Bus Connects announcement can be discussed in an open and transparent manner by all stakeholders.

It is vital that workers, through their representatives have input into the total reconfiguration of Dublin Bus’s routes which is after all, our members’ work place.”

 

[F Great Eastern]

The company has retained the Waterford City services beating 4 other operators in a tender decision announced today. The tender covered 5 routes and 17 vehicles that would be provided by the state.

As an incumbent it was widely expected BE would retain the routes since any new entrant to the Waterford market would have to factor into their costs the building of depot facilities whereas Bus Eireann have a pre-existing depot.

Elsewhere JJ Kavanagh has won a tender for a new route between Blanchardstown and Naas.

 

[radamfi]

As an incumbent it was widely expected BE would retain the routes since any new entrant to the Waterford market would have to factor into their costs the building of depot facilities whereas Bus Eireann have a pre-existing depot.

It would be better if the tendering involved the depot passing to the winning firm. That's what happens in Dutch bus tendering.

 

[DT611]

It would be better if the tendering involved the depot passing to the winning firm. That's what happens in Dutch bus tendering.

the depots are owned outright either by bus eireann or the parent CIE from what i understand so couldn't really be passed on to other operators unless the operators make an agreement with the owner to rent them. Possibly that may have happened if another operator won but who knows.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The unsuccessful bidders have been named as Urbus, Go-Ahead Ireland, Matthews Coach Hire and Transdev Ireland.

Interestingly it has been revealed that at least one operator offered a cheaper price than Bus Eireann despite the fact that said operator would face start-up and depot costs that BE would not.

The tender was 65/35 weighted on cost/technical grounds and the contract runs for 5 years with an optional extension of a further two years if certain criteria that have not been disclosed yet are met.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

It would be better if the tendering involved the depot passing to the winning firm. That's what happens in Dutch bus tendering.

except the depots are the property of the operator not the local authority/ tendering body. if the LA or other body ( e.g. like the UK PTEs) owned the depots and leased them as part of the deal that would work ...

would you also require fleet transfers and TUPE of staff ?

 

[radamfi]

except the depots are the property of the operator not the local authority/ tendering body. if the LA or other body ( e.g. like the UK PTEs) owned the depots and leased them as part of the deal that would work ...

would you also require fleet transfers and TUPE of staff ?

In the examples of Dutch bus tendering and British rail tendering you would generally get staff transferring to the new company. With Dutch bus tendering, sometimes the new company brings in new buses, sometimes existing buses are used.

 

[F Great Eastern]

There was originally a plan for staff to transfer but the unions wouldn't allow it.

The requirement to build an own depot was also inserted due to union demand.

 

[Flying Snail]

There was originally a plan for staff to transfer but the unions wouldn't allow it.

The requirement to build an own depot was also inserted due to union demand.

More uninformed anti-union mud slinging.

The NTA consistently refused to engage at any level with the staff/unions on the issue of TUPE for franchised services. In response to perfectly reasonable requests to clarify the issue and provide basic details to staff as to the way any transfer would be handled they issued a number of dismissive letters stating that as the staff were employed by Bus Eireann/Dublin Bus not NTA it was nothing to do with them.

As it is not within the power of BE/DB to control any aspect of TUPE except releasing employees and as the authority overseeing the franchising would not even recognise their role in the process what other option except refusal to participate did the unions have?

The requirement to source a new depot was nothing to do with union demands and everything to do with all depots being either CIE property or commercially leased never mind them still being required by Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus for operations not being franchised. The Waterford routes offered to tender comprised only 18 buses out of a depot maintaining a fleet of approx 100, transferring the depot to another operator was never on the cards.

Also there was no requirement for franchisees to BUILD a depot only to provide one, off the top of my head I can think of 2 transport operators and one maintenance facility within the Waterford area that have facilities that could feasibly be sub contracted to garage/maintain the fleet without the need to purchase land or build a new depot.

 

[radamfi]

everything to do with all depots being either CIE property or commercially leased never mind them still being required by Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus for operations not being franchised.

But surely if you look at bus tendering in other countries where the winning operator takes over the depot, the depot will previously have been owned by the legacy nationalised operator before tendering began. However, it does sound a bit silly if some operations in the area are to remain outside of the tender process as it means BE have to keep the depot.

 

[DT611]

But surely if you look at bus tendering in other countries where the winning operator takes over the depot, the depot will previously have been owned by the legacy nationalised operator before tendering began. However, it does sound a bit silly if some operations in the area are to remain outside of the tender process as it means BE have to keep the depot.

It's actually not silly at all. Any operations that are outside the tender process are either not part of the 10% or are commercial services.
tendering all subsidized services that operate out of that depot (i believe it's not just waterford local services) wouldn't make a difference as be own the depot and they would be keeping it.
state operator or not it seems in ireland you cannot just take property from them and transfer it to someone else. but maybe someone with a good understanding of the irish legal system will confirm.
I can't really comment on other countries and why they were able to simply transfer depots but i presume the abolishing of the legacy operator helped. As far as i know there are no plans yet to abolish the state operators in ireland.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's actually not silly at all. Any operations that are outside the tender process are either not part of the 10% or are commercial services.
tendering all subsidized services that operate out of that depot (i believe it's not just waterford local services) wouldn't make a difference as be own the depot and they would be keeping it.
state operator or not it seems in ireland you cannot just take property from them and transfer it to someone else. but maybe someone with a good understanding of the irish legal system will confirm.
I can't really comment on other countries and why they were able to simply transfer depots but i presume the abolishing of the legacy operator helped. As far as i know there are no plans yet to abolish the state operators in ireland.

There are several issues here that are probably a bit alien to most of us in the UK.

Firstly, there is the power and strength of the unions in the Republic. I worked there at various times and it is unlike anything that UK people would recognise. I was working there and we had a wildcat strike - the staff fell out, not with us (our firm), but the main customer. Not only that, we weren't allowed to walk across to their welfare facilities to ask what the issue actually was. Another time, the Garda had an unofficial strike except that they weren't - it was an organised sickday (aka the blue flu). Perhaps a innate rebellious, independent streak amongst some the most obliging people??

It's tough enough in commercial firms but I assume it's trickier in government owned entities so it's a gradual process in bringing in third party firms? That may well influence the speed and scope of changes though I bow down to those local posters who know better.

Secondly, there are some fundamental differences involving TUPE. Now TUPE is European legislation so you'd think it was consistent across 27 countries. You'd be wrong as I discovered!

I was thoroughly charmed, enthused and frustrated when working in Ireland... The stories I could tell Be interesting to see how this develops!

 

[F Great Eastern]

Following the conclusion of the Irish Rail Industrial Dispute, Bus Eireann Unions have put the company on notice that they expect their staff to get a pay rise in early 2018 in line with what Irish Rail have just secured.

This is in addition to the agreement in April 2017 that followed almost a month of a strike and I would say it is likely to head down that road again.

 

[Robertj21a]

Following the conclusion of the Irish Rail Industrial Dispute, Bus Eireann Unions have put the company on notice that they expect their staff to get a pay rise in early 2018 in line with what Irish Rail have just secured.

This is in addition to the agreement in April 2017 that followed almost a month of a strike and I would say it is likely to head down that road again.

Are they getting training from the French ..........?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Are they getting training from the French ..........?

There was a three week all-out strike that started in March 2017 and continued into April 2017 when a new deal was offered following mediation in the Labour Court that was passed by a Ballot in the second half of May 2017. The deal included a new composite pay rate in exchange for adapting cost saving proposals and more efficient working practices and rosters that would involve drivers spending more of their working day driving.

However there was a further dispute in the summer (no strike) in relation to how the cost saving proposals and rosters were going to be implemented so many had to be put back. In the end it wasn't until November that these issues were worked out and they only started to be implemented at the start of this month.

It is hard to see how BE can afford any pay rise, based on the fact that many proposals balloted for in May 2017 which were crucial to the companies finances, could only be implemented in December 2017 which is likely to have severely hampered the companies finances which were already in a serious state.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Here's what the GS of the NBRU said:
http://nbru.ie/index.php/nbru-membe...commendation-on-pay-at-iarnrod-eireann-by-64/

Our members have made a mature and pragmatic decision in accepting this pay award after ten years of pay stagnation; they have done so in the face of a management team who, led by the CEO, set it’s face against recognising the fact that staff that have contributed greatly to making Iarnród Éireann a successful modern railway service, with record revenue and the highest ever recorded passenger numbers, superior to the much vaunted, but in reality the shambolic overpriced privately run railway system in the UK.

The third party industrial relations institutions of the State, both the WRC and the Labour Court have demonstrated that their independence is fundamental in disputes of this nature. The NBRU will now concentrate on ensuring that our members in Bus Éireann, will soon be in a similar position to colleagues in Iarnród Éireann and Dublin Bus, by achieving a long overdue and well-deserved pay award.

We will also be holding Minister Ross to account, on his commitment to establishing a Public Transport Forum, where we will be insisting that the issue of a stable industrial relations climate (endorsed by the Labour Court) in the public transport sector will be discussed.