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Crisis at Bus Eireann

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F Great Eastern

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http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/...to-intervene-in-bus-eireann-talks-778103.html

It is quite clear at this stage that a resolution to the Expressway crisis can only be found if the Government, in the guise of the Department of Transport and the NTA provide the necessary support to ensure that the Bus Éireann issue does not drift into a catastrophic transport dispute with the very real potential of spreading across vast swathes of the CIÉ Group resulting in national gridlock

As the talks near an end, as expected the unions are now calling for the regulator to resolve the issue by investing extra amounts of cash so everything can plough on as it has for the last however number of years without any changes, basically throwing money at a problem to avoid dealing with the underlying problems.

This appears to be an ask for illegal state aid to Expressway financially and also an ask for licenses to be granted for corridors which they missed the boat because other people got in there before them. which would be a total travesty for the public of Ireland as it would essentially result in the benefits of the company/staff being put before the benefit of public transport as a whole.

Just to remind people, on commercial routes in Dublin, two licenses are handed out per corridor and routes, first two apply get the license, Multi-Stop and Express services are considered different routes. After the first two licenses are handed out nobody else can apply until one is freed up. In many cases Bus Eireann were not the first two to apply on these corridors so they were not able to get licenses for said routes.

Essentially what the unions are calling for is for a third license to be added to those corridors to allow Bus Eireann to run, with the aid of taxpayers money, to push out the competition on the other routes with state aid to become the dominant operator on the route. However it appears to be stating that no further licenses should be permitted on routes where Bus Eireann is already one of the two operators - essentially wanting to change the dynamics of the industry so it's in favour of the company, rather than the bigger picture.

The side effects of this would be catastrophic and will discourage any company from offering innovative or ground-breaking services in the knowledge that any niche proven successful, can have a taxpayer funded operator come in and piggy back on their investment and act like birds of prey and predators on their services. This means that no commercials will take the industry forward, which will lead to poorer services overall for the public.

This cannot be allowed to happen.

It is simply not good enough that the Minister for Transport, as he recently suggested, would tell the people of rural Ireland that their future services will be less frequent and less comfortable than that which they currently enjoy.

The continued tactic of scaring rural communities with totally off the wall claims with no basis on reality and using them as a tool to beat the company with and to try and push a government over the edge is getting increasingly tiresome and as I wrote out earlier, by the week the regulators patience with these claims is getting ever more thin. If it carries on in this vein for much longer I wouldn't be surprised if it decided to take some hard action against the people who keep repeating them.

The only routes which have been talked about being changed or cut back are routes which are commercial routes connecting major towns and cities. Over the past few years there has been year on year growth on subsdised and rural routes as the regulator has invested large amounts of money on modern fleets, full network redesigns and has seen large passenger growth. These services have not been and never will be at threat and the only people who claim they are, are the unions who are attempting to weaponize people in rural communities.

The routes that are at threat are commercial routes and these are 99% not serving rural areas. Where commercial routes have been withdrawn in the past and they lead to a reduction of services to people in some areas, new PSO services to connect those towns and villages to the commercial network have been fully funded by way of further investment in the public transport network, this happened when Bus Eireann withdrew a route in the past and I'm sure it will happen again.

"IF the company persists with these negative interventions - and by that I mean stuff about a race to the bottom, trying to become a low wage operator to compete with the rogue employers out there - then obviously if they maintain that position we're heading for an inevitable strike,"

The more and more I read on this the more I believe it's impossible to resolve, the unions are attempting to use more and more people as bargaining chips, repeating statements over and over again that have no basis on reality, the regulator is getting fed up with such statements being made and is actively challenging such statements to the point where the CEO is now writing to media outlets for essentially believing what the unions tell them without even checking their facts, whilst at the same time the unions are claiming that the only solution is for more money and to carry on as is.
 
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F Great Eastern

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Talks have collapsed, all out strike from Monday:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-management-and-unions-collapse-35469877.html

Union has called again for government to intervene and claims that they could also cause disruption through Irish Rail since some facilities are shared between Bus Eireann and Irish Rail.

Government has made no comment other than confirming that for each day the strike goes on the company will not be paid their subsidy for that day due to not providing contracted services.

Company appears to also be increasing the pressure by stating that following breakdown of talks they will axe three commercial routes and appear to not be ruling out redundancies as a result.

Unless there is a change it looks like it could be pay or jobs sooner or later.
 
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F Great Eastern

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Strike from midnight tonight until further notice.

Obviously it's going to cause a major issue to rural services in Ireland and also in all Towns and cities in Ireland outside Dublin will have very very limited services. and some none at all.

Intercity wise passengers will be less affected as most of the routes but not all have competition, but that is dangerous for BE since some passengers, like with the last strike, may try the competition and never go back to using them.

Also doesn't bold well for the Belfast route especially with the massive bus war going on that route right now starting today, it was the worst time things could happen for that route.
 

robertclark125

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The strike caused some disruption to Irish Rail services. This was due to the fact that in some locations, such as Sligo, Limerick, and Tralee, Bus Eireann staff share facilities with Irish Rail staff. The upshot was, this morning, some Irish Rail staff didn't cross picket lines. In Limerick, unions representing rail workers spoke to Irish Rail staff, and after a meeting, they decided to resume working.

Dublin Bus was operating as normal. Neither Dublin Bus or Irish Rail are accepting Bus Eireann tickets on their services.
 

F Great Eastern

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The strike caused some disruption to Irish Rail services. This was due to the fact that in some locations, such as Sligo, Limerick, and Tralee, Bus Eireann staff share facilities with Irish Rail staff. The upshot was, this morning, some Irish Rail staff didn't cross picket lines. In Limerick, unions representing rail workers spoke to Irish Rail staff, and after a meeting, they decided to resume working.

There was also reports of secondary picketing at train stations in Cork in areas where facilities were not shared that disrupted services there.
 

robertclark125

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There was also reports of secondary picketing at train stations in Cork in areas where facilities were not shared that disrupted services there.

I had heard there was disruption at another location, ut wasn't sure where.

For those not sure why there was disruption at Limerick ,where facilities are shared, the sharing of facilities, which have been upgraded, goes back to when CIE was the actual operator, as opposed to the situation since February 1987, where it's the parent company of the operating subsidiaries. Before 1987, CIE was the direct operator of trains and buses in Limerick. Nowadays, IE run the trains, Bus Eireann the buses.
 

F Great Eastern

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I had heard there was disruption at another location, ut wasn't sure where.

For those not sure why there was disruption at Limerick ,where facilities are shared, the sharing of facilities, which have been upgraded, goes back to when CIE was the actual operator, as opposed to the situation since February 1987, where it's the parent company of the operating subsidiaries. Before 1987, CIE was the direct operator of trains and buses in Limerick. Nowadays, IE run the trains, Bus Eireann the buses.

A lot of stuff is going down, GoBe, a joint venture between Bus Eireann and Galway based GoBus who staff the buses, was prevented from leaving Cork and they were forced to cancel all services between Cork and Dublin and are only operated in the other direction

According to their facebook
https://www.facebook.com/pg/GoBeCork

We had intended to run services as scheduled however when our first service at 06:30am this morning was due to depart, the driver and passengers was met by NBRU members who had left their picket and threatened our driver and passengers. On health and safety grounds a decision was made to suspend all services from Cork. The safety of our passengers and staff is our priority at all times.
 

robertclark125

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I don't know what the legislation in the Republic of Ireland is with regards to secondary picketing, but it appears to be rather different to the UK. If it's true that NBRU members left their picket and threatened a driver and passengers, it may not bode well for public opinion on the strike.

However, this appears to be an isolated incident, but nevertheless totally unwelcome if that is what happened.
 

F Great Eastern

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This happened in 2013 as well with the same service.
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/05/13/meanwhile-in-cork-29/

Just to explain, GoBe is a joint operation between GoBus and Bus Eireann in a somewhat complicated arrangement. It was formed after GoBus got a license for Dublin to Cork non stop and Bus Eireann went into partnership with them.

Gobus hold the route license and are the legal operator of the service and it's run under their certificate and passenger transport license and manage the service day to day and manager customer care and are responsible for all online ticket sales.

Bus Eireann provide the service with bus stop facilities and access to bus station and provide marketing for the service and sell tickets at their bus stations and ticket offices and own the name of the brand.

Since Gobus do not have a depot in Cork, they contract out the staffing and vehicle procurement to Eirebus for duties based out of Dublin, and Barry's Coaches for duties based out of Cork. Both Eirebus and Barry's are part of the Bernard Kavanagh Group.
 

Bletchleyite

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I don't know what the legislation in the Republic of Ireland is with regards to secondary picketing, but it appears to be rather different to the UK. If it's true that NBRU members left their picket and threatened a driver and passengers, it may not bode well for public opinion on the strike.

However, this appears to be an isolated incident, but nevertheless totally unwelcome if that is what happened.

It's the alleged threats that would be a concern, and I hope they are prosecuted criminally if the allegations are true.

Picketing is one thing, threats are quite another.
 

Mwanesh

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Is this not a public owned company .I dont know about the Irish market.Surely if they are trying to bring in tendering dont you think it will weaken the company further.The unions demand for protection on some routes is surely a monopoly.The unions should be careful what they wish for.The country is being held to ransom .If it carries on the unions are going to loose public goodwill and once passengers go thats it.
 

GaryMcEwan

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Is this not a public owned company .I dont know about the Irish market.Surely if they are trying to bring in tendering dont you think it will weaken the company further.The unions demand for protection on some routes is surely a monopoly.The unions should be careful what they wish for.The country is being held to ransom .If it carries on the unions are going to loose public goodwill and once passengers go thats it.

Going by what is in the Irish News and what RTE News have been playing out, the government and specifically the NTA are refusing to get involved and have told this to Bus Eireann on numerous occasions.
 

F Great Eastern

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Going by what is in the Irish News and what RTE News have been playing out, the government and specifically the NTA are refusing to get involved and have told this to Bus Eireann on numerous occasions.

Essentially the whole thing is about restructuring the company to make the company more efficient. Core and basic pay is not being touched at all but overtime will be cut back by improving schedules and getting better value out of assets etc.

The company said in a full costed report there are 1,378 drivers who work overtime each day, costing the same as 1,636 drivers and if the rotas were made to be modern there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers with the same services so they are paying for the equivalent 650 more staff members than the company feels it needs and the average pay is €45,000 at the driver grade with a significant number earning over €60k which basically means the company has found €25m of inefficiencies in rotas.

In 2016 the average driver paid hours were 9.4 and the average revenue generating driving time was 5.5 hours per day and the company want to bring this up to make sure that drivers spend more time driving and less time being idle, whilst also making sure they have more than the legally required breaks. The report says that in many cases, the senior, higher earning drivers have an easier schedule with less weekend work, and less actual revenue generating driving time than the people so essentially they appear to be doing less work when it comes to driving but at the same time getting paid more money.,

This has led some people to suspect that the people at the top of the chain are calling the shots as new entrants are doing the donkey work with more weekend work, harder schedules, less overtime and more driving hours whilst the people at the top of the tree are driving less, earning more, claiming more over-time, working on the nicer routes with the better schedules.

The Unions are trying to deflect all debate away from working practices and say that it is an attack on the public transport system as a whole and that it has been about flooding the marketplace with too many licenses, despite the fact the licensing system and the rules that govern it haven't changed in the last decade and Bus Eireann's Commercial arm has the same rights as any other commercial arm.

The problem is that Bus Eireann Management were slow to spot the potential of some routes/services and the private sector did spot them and by the time BE realised it had made a mistake, it was too late.
 
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TUC

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The strike is a perfrect example of why monopoly operators are always a bad thing.
 

Bletchleyite

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The strike is a perfrect example of why monopoly operators are always a bad thing.

I wouldn't say so. It's a perfect example of why adversarial ("them and us") employee relations belong in the 1970s and not the modern day.

Bus operations in most medium to small towns are near enough monopolies and that does not cause this kind of thing.
 

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A lot of stuff is going down, GoBe, a joint venture between Bus Eireann and Galway based GoBus who staff the buses, was prevented from leaving Cork and they were forced to cancel all services between Cork and Dublin and are only operated in the other direction

According to their facebook
https://www.facebook.com/pg/GoBeCork

If I was a passenger I would have pushed past the pickets and called theit bluff.
 

Tetchytyke

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The strike is a perfrect example of why monopoly operators are always a bad thing.

Not really, in a lot of rural Ireland there isn't the footfall to support two competitive services. Which is a big part of the reason why things are so bad at BE.
 

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Not really, in a lot of rural Ireland there isn't the footfall to support two competitive services. Which is a big part of the reason why things are so bad at BE.

But even the potential for competition can have beneficial effects. From the details above of BE's cost base, it does not sound like a company that has had the rigorous control of costs that operate in more competitive environments
 

robertclark125

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I think this dispute also brings into question, once again, the whole future of CIE. There have been plans in the past to abolish CIE, which owns Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, and Irish Rail. The idea behind this is it would make the firms more competitive. Certainly, there could be some aspects at CIE which could be done at the operating subsidiaries, which may be what the government thinks.

Now, I don't know what those aspects are, but you do wonder, once again, if CIE's future is at stake here.
 

DT611

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Sympathy strike? It sounds like Irish labour laws are still in the 1970s.


Irish labour laws are fine thanks.

But even the potential for competition can have beneficial effects. From the details above of BE's cost base, it does not sound like a company that has had the rigorous control of costs that operate in more competitive environments

The public service obligation routes can only support 1 operator. competition isn't financially viable and as a tax payer i don't actually want to pay for "competition" . Competition can be left to the routes that can support it where it is working well currently.
 

F Great Eastern

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I read today that the staff refuse to turn on telemetry and fuel saving systems on their vehicles as they see it as nannying and will not be told how to drive their bus.

You have to question though how management allowed things to get like this in first place. For too long staff have been used to huge amounts of overtime in addition to their core hours which was always going to cause problems someday.

The problem with pso routes is every city bus route in the country is deemed as being nonviable and to date automatically given to cie. The open market has not been cable to even attempt running in commercially or tender for it they just automatically get renewed every few years which obviously doesn't promote a lean cost structure.
 

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The public service obligation routes can only support 1 operator. competition isn't financially viable and as a tax payer i don't actually want to pay for "competition" . Competition can be left to the routes that can support it where it is working well currently.

You can have competition at the point of tendering, of course, doesn't have to be at the point of use.
 

DT611

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You can have competition at the point of tendering, of course, doesn't have to be at the point of use.

I don't recognise tendering as competition as i believe it ultimately to be a ploy to drive down terms and conditions where used in terms of public services. the only competition i see as such is competition i actually can benefit directly from such as having a choice of operator, however unfortunately i understand that a lot of bus routes and the railway of which i am a user aren't going to have multiple operators and i guess that is just how it is due to their nature.
 

F Great Eastern

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The unions view on tendering is it will increase the subsidy needed as operators will take a big chunk of profit so would increase costs because it cannot be done for lower because the services are nonviable.

They appear to believe that cost Base has little to do with tender prices and if a route is viable or not whilst at the same time dead against tendering even though if their claim is true they will win every tender anyway.
 

F Great Eastern

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I don't recognise tendering as competition as i believe it ultimately to be a ploy to drive down terms and conditions where used in terms of public services.

You mean the taxpayer funded bus service might actually start to be run in a cost effective way for the taxpayer rather than one that allows staff to spend little more than half their working day driving then claim overtime and then come out with 60 grand at the end of the year?

The unions would have a lot better point if they made some effort to help the company but refusing to use fuel saving technology and other systems. I also just read that if a driver is scheduled for overtime and he is sick he still gets paid overtime!!! Thet is crazy stuff.

There's also stuff about inspectors acting up for a day getting paid the higher rate for a whole week and bus drivers refusing to fuel buses and not taking them out if nobody else is around to fuel then because they claim it's not their job or do any quick walk through cleans between buses and they are refusing to do first use checks without extra money saying it's also not their job.
 

DT611

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You mean the taxpayer funded bus service might actually start to be run in a cost effective way for the taxpayer rather than one that allows staff to spend little more than half their working day driving then claim overtime and then come out with 60 grand at the end of the year?

The unions would have a lot better point if they made some effort to help the company but refusing to use fuel saving technology and other systems. I also just read that if a driver is scheduled for overtime and he is sick he still gets paid overtime!!! Thet is crazy stuff.

There's also stuff about inspectors acting up for a day getting paid the higher rate for a whole week and bus drivers refusing to fuel buses and not taking them out if nobody else is around to fuel then because they claim it's not their job or do any quick walk through cleans between buses and they are refusing to do first use checks without extra money saying it's also not their job.


These are only claims from the company, i haven't read any independantly verified evidence to prove they are or aren't true. what i will say is it is the driver's job to drive the bus. If that is all that is in their job description then doing anything else isn't their job. If it is and they are refusing to do it then that is up to management to discipline them for not doing their job.
 

F Great Eastern

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These are only claims from the company, i haven't read any independantly verified evidence to prove they are or aren't true. what i will say is it is the driver's job to drive the bus. If that is all that is in their job description then doing anything else isn't their job. If it is and they are refusing to do it then that is up to management to discipline them for not doing their job.

it's called modern working practices.That's what makes me laugh about the driver's. Moan left right and center and point fingers at everyone else but refuse to help in any way to assist the company bring costs down by being more efficient.

Why would the company write a list of 50 working practices that need to change if they already were in place? What you say makes no sense. As someone said earlier in the thread it's a real them and us situation and a totally dysfunctional situation.
 
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