Cross country 2 car 170s and seat reservations

[Severn40]

Over the past few months, been on several 2 car 170s between Cardiff Central to Nottingham, only to find that there are hardly any or no unreserved seats. This has resulted in disquiet particularly from passengers that need more flexibility in their travel arrangements (and arguably paying a higher premium just to stand up for the best part of two hours).

Surely, XC should be capping the number of seat reservations on the 170s, regardless whether they are two or three car?

 

[Ih8earlies]

Why do you assume that all reserved seats are for people who have paid less than you?

Not all seat reservations will be for Advance ticket holders. Many will be for people who have flexible tickets like you who have planned ahead.

But yes. There should be a set percentage of unreserved seats on every train, I agree.

 

[chubs]

It's a pain when they're on the Stansted service too, for the same reason.

Really they aren't suitable for the routes they run on. Even the 3 cars struggle.

 

[Edders23]

It's a pain when they're on the Stansted service too, for the same reason.

Really they aren't suitable for the routes they run on. Even the 3 cars struggle.

yes I regularly here of the woes of these units on the Stansted route from my customers but a lot of travellers that I take to the local station are not regular commuters but travelling to visit friends or go on holiday and they invariably have reserved seats although from my local station to the main interchange at Peterborough is only 12 minutes which is not too bad for standing we do as many trips direct to Peterborough as we do to Stamford as people don't want to struggle and most know that empty seats are very rare on those trains.

At one time there was a proposal and I believe a provisional timetable published to increase the frequency from every 60 minutes to every 40 minutes followed suddenly by a huge upsurge in driver training runs by Freightliner and GBRF who were worried at losing their freight slots although I somehow doubt there would have been sufficient stock

 

[TheBigD]

At one time there was a proposal and I believe a provisional timetable published to increase the frequency from every 60 minutes to every 40 minutes followed suddenly by a huge upsurge in driver training runs by Freightliner and GBRF who were worried at losing their freight slots although I somehow doubt there would have been sufficient stock

The proposal was for December 2008 and made it in to the published timetable but was never implemented due to the financial crash.
I've posted the original plan a number of times but basically it was:

Mondays to Saturdays.
0652, 0852, 1052, 1252 & 1852 ex Birmingham extended through to Cambridge.
0818, 1018, 1218, 1418, 1618, 1818 & 2228(so) ex Leicester starting from Cambridge.
The resourcing plan was for the current double unit on the Notts-Cardiff to be split and the unit for the 1739 Birmingham-Derby to be in service all day long.
Cambridge depot would have seen an extra 6 Guards and 9 drivers.

 

[6Gman]

Trouble is that restricting seat reservations doesn't create any extra seats. It just means a bigger scrum. And calls of "why couldn't I reserve seats for my elderly parents".

 

[jopsuk]

Restricting seat reservations does also mean less Advance tickets made available per train, which is an effective rise in the average ticket price.

 

[PeterY]

I've done Birmingham to Stansted on a two car 170 on a Saturday..............................NEVER AGAIN !

 

[Midnight Sun]

It's pot luck if I can even get on to the first train heading to Cambridge (80) from March 7.32am in the Winter months. Normaly a three car unit when a two unit car turns up. You never get on. You may say catch the next one. But this is the only one that arrives in Cambridge before nine. Yet heading towards Peterborough the first one is at 5.50am and is a three car unit.

 

[chubs]

When (*if?) the GA Norwich - Stansted direct services take off it might take a bit of pressure off, but that will mostly be the end of the route from Ely towards Stansted.

It will probably be years before the XC 170 mess is sorted, what with a proper franchise needing to be let and then train orders and acceptance etc.

 

[Ianno87]

The proposal was for December 2008 and made it in to the published timetable but was never implemented due to the financial crash.
I've posted the original plan a number of times but basically it was:

Mondays to Saturdays.
0652, 0852, 1052, 1252 & 1852 ex Birmingham extended through to Cambridge.
0818, 1018, 1218, 1418, 1618, 1818 & 2228(so) ex Leicester starting from Cambridge.
The resourcing plan was for the current double unit on the Notts-Cardiff to be split and the unit for the 1739 Birmingham-Derby to be in service all day long.
Cambridge depot would have seen an extra 6 Guards and 9 drivers.

More recently, XC proposed for May 18 (since postponed) an extra return trip from/to Cambridge. Would have been the 0617 ex-Cambridge (0815ish ex-Leicester starting back), and the 1752 New St-Leicester extending to Cambridge.

It's pot luck if I can even get on to the first train heading to Cambridge (80) from March 7.32am in the Winter months. Normaly a three car unit when a two unit car turns up. You never get on. You may say catch the next one. But this is the only one that arrives in Cambridge before nine. Yet heading towards Peterborough the first one is at 5.50am and is a three car unit.

Trouble us the first eastbound has to work through from New St, hence why it is so late. Meanwhile trains are starting from Cambridge (ex-Coldham Lane) towards Stansted as late as 0735 - always thought there might be an opportunity to at least start that one back from Peterborough, ECS from Cambridge.

The three cars do seem to be diagrammed to hit the Birmingham peak. Suits me for doing Cambridge-Brum and back business day trips once or twice a week (and you do notice whrn a 2 car ends up on a 3 car diagram!)

 

[satisnek]

Yes it really grinds my gears! All I require is a local service between Birmingham and Derby - something that XC is simply not set up for.

 

[Midnight Sun]

More recently, XC proposed for May 18 (since postponed) an extra return trip from/to Cambridge. Would have been the 0617 ex-Cambridge (0815ish ex-Leicester starting back), and the 1752 New St-Leicester extending to Cambridge.

Trouble us the first eastbound has to work through from New St, hence why it is so late. Meanwhile trains are starting from Cambridge (ex-Coldham Lane) towards Stansted as late as 0735 - always thought there might be an opportunity to at least start that one back from Peterborough, ECS from Cambridge.

The three cars do seem to be diagrammed to hit the Birmingham peak. Suits me for doing Cambridge-Brum and back business day trips once or twice a week (and you do notice whrn a 2 car ends up on a 3 car diagram!)

Does not even need to be a ECS just couple it to the 5.18am from Cambridge and spit at Peterborough and run back to Cambridge. It's only 30 miniutes downtime for the crew.

 

[53703]

I've done Birmingham to Stansted on a two car 170 on a Saturday..............................NEVER AGAIN !

Ideal routes for HST GTIs? Will never happen but got to be better than 170s for long distance work

 

[59CosG95]

There are a lot of 170s coming off-lease from WMR soon...

 

[Parallel]

Not 170s but I can certainly empathise as I used a XC 220 on Saturday with a computer fault so no reservations were listed and the guard was ENFORCING that people sat in their reserved seats. It caused numerous arguments and squabbles and was totally unnecessary. IMO if there’s no reservations put out then it should be a case of sit where there’s an available seat (or stand) - A woman moved three times on this particular train and then refused to move a fourth which then led to an argument between passengers.

 

[185]

Why do you assume that all reserved seats are for people who have paid less than you?

I wouldn't actually disagree with the original statement, seen many a train where it is filled with people holding seven quid AP tickets, with under 5% of seats unreserved and the rest of the punters were stood. I do think there should be a set maximum of 50% Advances per train, then sell standard fare only - the whole point of Advances is to fill up quieter trains - not leave turn up & go passengers stood. Obv the trains could be bigger, that is a long term issue but in the short term, the amount of reservations could be better considered than the current situation.

 

[dk1]

When (*if?) the GA Norwich - Stansted direct services take off it might take a bit of pressure off, but that will mostly be the end of the route from Ely towards Stanste.

It won't really make that much difference to loadings from Cambridge heading to Stansted as those services already operate. Only Ely & Cambridge North will benefit & in the meantime the airport (& trains serving it) sees passenger numbers continue to climb.

 

[Stampy]

I've done Birmingham to Stansted on a two car 170 on a Saturday..............................NEVER AGAIN !

Same here, many times....

It's either choc-a-block from Peterborough or Stamford and empties at Leicester, only for it to fill back up again to Birmingham. Good luck getting a seat!

Coming back, it's normally a scrum to get seats when the unit "opens" at Birmingham, choc-a-block again to Leicester, where a few get off, and then full again back to Stamford/Peterborough. Normally with people taking seats up with shopping, bags, and feet - because they can't be bothered to stick stuff in the overhead rack!!!

Might be easier if they were, say, a 4-car unit!!!

 

[whhistle]

There are a lot of 170s coming off-lease from WMR soon...

And are formed of how many coaches? :P
It's not really about the amount of services, but the length of the trains.

While not a great upgrade, the 3-coach 175s from TfW could be transferred to XC (16 175s to replace 13 2-coach 170s, giving three extra units to play with) so there's no reason why all the Stansted trains couldn't always be 3-coaches.
Then, send the ex-XC 2-coach 170s to EMT, and together with the all 170s from WMT, they could replace the whole 153/156 fleet over there as the numbers of units match exactly.

Really, the Stanstead to Birmingham, Leicester to Birmingham, Birmingham to Cardiff needs brand new stock that's properly thought out with lengths.
While there's been issues mooted with the Voyagers and Stansted platforms, the 4-cars trains could be ideal for this route (albeit overkill on some services though). However that means upgrading the "Senior Conductors" to "Train Managers" (= more wages for them!). Would only happen if the Meridians were transferred to supplement the loss of the 4-coach trains though, I guess.
Too many problems from the get go.

 

[Ianno87]

And are formed of how many coaches? :P
It's not really about the amount of services, but the length of the trains.

While not a great upgrade, the 3-coach 175s from TfW could be transferred to XC (16 175s to replace 13 2-coach 170s, giving three extra units to play with) so there's no reason why all the Stansted trains couldn't always be 3-coaches.
Then, send the ex-XC 2-coach 170s to EMT, and together with the all 170s from WMT, they could replace the whole 153/156 fleet over there as the numbers of units match exactly.

Really, the Stanstead to Birmingham, Leicester to Birmingham, Birmingham to Cardiff needs brand new stock that's properly thought out with lengths.
While there's been issues mooted with the Voyagers and Stansted platforms, the 4-cars trains could be ideal for this route (albeit overkill on some services though). However that means upgrading the "Senior Conductors" to "Train Managers" (= more wages for them!). Would only happen if the Meridians were transferred to supplement the loss of the 4-coach trains though, I guess.
Too many problems from the get go.

I thought Voyagers/Meridians were quite speed-restricted across the Fens, due to their weight?

 

[chubs]

It won't really make that much difference to loadings from Cambridge heading to Stansted as those services already operate. Only Ely & Cambridge North will benefit & in the meantime the airport (& trains serving it) sees passenger numbers continue to climb.

Isn't the new service half hourly or did I get mixed up? So would be 2 GA and 1 XC service from Cambridge to Stansted an hour instead of just 1 GA and 1 XC.

I always change at Ely on the way there, I've often thought that people would be left behind at Cambridge en route to Stansted as there's always loads of people waiting on the platform. Add in all the suitcases too.

 

[43074]

Isn't the new service half hourly or did I get mixed up? So would be 2 GA and 1 XC service from Cambridge to Stansted an hour instead of just 1 GA and 1 XC.

I always change at Ely on the way there, I've often thought that people would be left behind at Cambridge en route to Stansted as there's always loads of people waiting on the platform. Add in all the suitcases too.

The GA Cambridge to Stansted service will be merged with the Norwich to Cambridge service so you'll have 1 XC and 1 GA service between Ely and Stansted Airport.

 

[gordonthemoron]

two coach XC services between Birmingham and Cardiff are really not on, especially as far as Cheltenham. Still it's better than when some services were formed of a single 153

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Normally [full] with people taking seats up with (...) feet - because they can't be bothered to stick stuff in the overhead rack!!!

Now if they could be bothered to put their feet in the luggage rack then I would quite like to see it...

On the substantive point, there really is something wrong when XC are allowed to sell the overwhelming majority of seats as Advance fares, then leaving passengers on more expensive walk-up fares to stand - and not just stand in small numbers, but so that the corridor is solidly full. We all know why XC do it - it's about maximising profit, and that's what private companies are meant to do - but it seems to me that franchise agreements should require franchisees to do everything they can to avoid overcrowding. A vague ambition, I know (what do we mean by 'overcrowding'? What about 'everything they can'? Won't it mean fewer, more expensive tickets?) but this is what specifying contracts is about.

 

[bunnahabhain]

It's pot luck if I can even get on to the first train heading to Cambridge (80) from March 7.32am in the Winter months. Normaly a three car unit when a two unit car turns up. You never get on. You may say catch the next one. But this is the only one that arrives in Cambridge before nine. Yet heading towards Peterborough the first one is at 5.50am and is a three car unit.

You could catch the 0643 and 0754 East Midlands Trains services as far as Ely and change there for one of the regular trains to Cambridge, the latter would get you in at 0835, or 0851 if you missed the earlier train.

 

[LowLevel]

And are formed of how many coaches? :P
It's not really about the amount of services, but the length of the trains.

While not a great upgrade, the 3-coach 175s from TfW could be transferred to XC (16 175s to replace 13 2-coach 170s, giving three extra units to play with) so there's no reason why all the Stansted trains couldn't always be 3-coaches.
Then, send the ex-XC 2-coach 170s to EMT, and together with the all 170s from WMT, they could replace the whole 153/156 fleet over there as the numbers of units match exactly.

Really, the Stanstead to Birmingham, Leicester to Birmingham, Birmingham to Cardiff needs brand new stock that's properly thought out with lengths.
While there's been issues mooted with the Voyagers and Stansted platforms, the 4-cars trains could be ideal for this route (albeit overkill on some services though). However that means upgrading the "Senior Conductors" to "Train Managers" (= more wages for them!). Would only happen if the Meridians were transferred to supplement the loss of the 4-coach trains though, I guess.
Too many problems from the get go.

Senior Conductor to Train Manager is far from an upgrade especially on XC - the train managers would die for the senior conductor's conditions and taking Sundays into account the wages aren't too different!

 

[diffident]

two coach XC services between Birmingham and Cardiff are really not on, especially as far as Cheltenham. Still it's better than when some services were formed of a single 153

I couldn't agree more, regularly stand between Birmingham and Gloucester (and reverse). Capacity is woefully lacking on the route - its similarly as bad between Birmingham and Burton-on-Trent.

 

[dk1]

I always change at Ely on the way there, I've often thought that people would be left behind at Cambridge en route to Stansted as there's always loads of people waiting on the platform. Add in all the suitcases too.

Changing at Ely is often a fatal mistake many people make. Should something happen to the XC service it's always best to get to Cambridge where you'll benefit from the direct GA service or double back via Stortford. Get as close as you can to your destination is always my motto.

 

[Ianno87]

Changing at Ely is often a fatal mistake many people make. Should something happen to the XC service it's always best to get to Cambridge where you'll benefit from the direct GA service or double back via Stortford. Get as close as you can to your destination is always my motto.

Trains start there empty all day now, at least 1tph (2tph in the peak), so it's not a daft idea at all for getting to Cambridge from March etc. by changing at Ely.

But changing onto the XC service (if you're Stansted-bound) is better at Cambridge. They can be well-loaded, but not packed south of Cambridge by any stretch of the imagination.