Cross Country's Class 221 to 220 - Technical Differences?

Inthewest

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Apart from the tilting mechanism, are there any other technical differences?

As and when Avanti give up their 221s, there is a strong possibility they'll go to Cross Country. At a guess, they'll isolate the tilt mechanically by removing certain parts like they did with the last 221s (as far as I'm aware).

What stops them being 220/2's or some other sub class of the 220 family, as that's what they've sort of become?
 
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pdeaves

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One difference is the bogies. Whether that counts under 'tilt mechanism' in the original post I don't know (they are certainly related) but hey, I've said it in case Inthewest wasn't aware.
 

swt_passenger

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Apart from the tilting mechanism, are there any other technical differences?

As and when Avanti give up their 221s, there is a strong possibility they'll go to Cross Country. At a guess, they'll isolate the tilt mechanically by removing certain parts like they did with the last 221s (as far as I'm aware).

What stops them being 220/2's or some other sub class of the 220 family, as that's what they've become?
XC 221s were never renumbered, so there’s your main evidence that ex-Avanti wouldn’t be either.
 
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jopsuk

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the tilt-disabled class 221s are still, for one thing, much heavier than the Class 220s. Much of that ~10tonnes per vehicle is in having tilt-suitable outside frame bogies, rather than the light B5000 series bogies on class 220 and 222.. And as O L Leigh, says, don't go looking for logic in TOPS! It has the appearance of logical system, but it is not.
 
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Wyrleybart

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XC 221s were never renumbered, so there’s your main evidence that ex-Avanti wouldn’t be either.
There was some Ops company talk of renumbering the XC 4 car 221/1s into 221/0s to differentiate. IIRC there are four four car 221s - something like 221130 221136 221141 and 221144.

Nothing ever came of it.
 

Efini92

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220s have an inbuilt hot axle box detector due to their lightweight bogies.
The bogies are lighter but the reason for the built in hot axle box detectors is because the axle boxes are on the inside of the wheels and the lineside hot axle box detectors are on the outside of the rail.
 

D365

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the tilt-disabled class 221s are still, for one thing, much heavier than the Class 220s. Much of that ~tonnes per vehicle is in having tilt-suitable outside frame bogies, rather than the light B5000 series bogies on class 220 and 222.. And as O L Leigh, says, don't go looking for logic in TOPS! It has the appearance of logical system, but it is not.
That’s exactly the reason why 221s are not 220s - perfect logic there…
 

Wyrleybart

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And as O L Leigh, says, don't go looking for logic in TOPS! It has the appearance of logical system, but it is not.
Nowt wrong with the logic of TOPS if people use it properly, instead of trying to reinvent all other kinds of wheels. Started in TOPS in 1980 when we still had punchcards, but the fact is that the system can record down to the kilo how much of whose goods is in what wagon. Shame the sectorisation / privatisation "machine" couldn't accept that.
 
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Efini92

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The only other difference I can think of is the parking brakes are different wheels.
class 220 are on axles 2,4,6,8 on each vehicle
Class 221 are on axles 2 and 6 on each vehicle
 

43096

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The only other difference I can think of is the parking brakes are different wheels.
class 220 are on axles 2,4,6,8 on each vehicle
Class 221 are on axles 2 and 6 on each vehicle
As far as I can see, each 22x vehicle only has 4 axles?
 
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Another difference, although a consequence of the various design differences is the ‘run’ sound of the wheels made by both units. Passing by at Speed, the lightweight bogies on the 220s make a jingling sound, whereas the 221s sound similar to other wheels of trains that were invisaged to tilt (390s & Mk4s).
 

tiptoptaff

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The only other difference I can think of is the parking brakes are different wheels.
class 220 are on axles 2,4,6,8 on each vehicle
Class 221 are on axles 2 and 6 on each vehicle
Wheels, not axles, surely?
 

jopsuk

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Thanks everyone.

In theory, could the 221's have the 220 bogie fitted?
probably, it would probably cost a lot and not be economically worthwhile. But I would be unsurprised if it was technically possible to strip a 221 down and refit it as a 220.
 

Efini92

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Thanks everyone.

In theory, could the 221's have the 220 bogie fitted?
I would imagine so but I’m no engineer. I got told that the original bogies would have to be refitted at the end of the leasing period which makes it less financially viable.
 

D365

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Would make absolutely no [economic] sense to alter the 221s below the solebar.
 

greatvoyager

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There was some Ops company talk of renumbering the XC 4 car 221/1s into 221/0s to differentiate. IIRC there are four four car 221s - something like 221130 221136 221141 and 221144.

Nothing ever came of it.
True, and when first built the 4-car 221s were numbered in the 22114x series, which probably would’ve been enough.
 

greatvoyager

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That is just how the numbers worked out though - coincidence rather than design.
I’m aware of that, was trying to say they probably wouldn’t need to be renumbered, rather than specifically being allocated said numbers.
 

Wyrleybart

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True, and when first built the 4-car 221s were numbered in the 22114x series, which probably would’ve been enough.
I think you are missing the point. If 221/1 are five car voyagers then the proposal was for the four 4 car 221s to be renumbered as 221/0s so that 221/0 would be known as 4 car voyagers. Simply because few staff would remember the diverse numbers of the four 4 cars now, whereas as, as you say 221141-221144 were easy to remember.
 

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