Cross London transfer but no "Maltese Cross" on ticket ?

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General Zod

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I've purchased a pair of Advance singles from Red Spotted Hanky for a return trip between High Wycombe and Glasgow. I assumed the tickets would be valid for use on London Underground between Marylebone and London Euston ( or Baker St to Euston Square). In this case the ticket is missing the 'Maltese Cross' sign and in its place is an asterisk. Just need to confirm if this ticket can be used on LUL or will I have to pay for the tube transfer as an extra ?

Thanks.
 
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LexyBoy

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I've purchased a pair of Advance singles from Red Spotted Hanky for a return trip between High Wycombe and Glasgow. I assumed the tickets would be valid for use on London Underground between Marylebone and London Euston ( or Baker St to Euston Square). In this case the ticket is missing the 'Maltese Cross' sign and in its place is an asterisk. Just need to confirm if this ticket can be used on LUL or will I have to pay for the tube transfer as an extra ?

Thanks.
It is valid if on a Permitted Route, you may find that Underground staff disagree however.

 

hairyhandedfool

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I think the official answer is no it is not valid on LUL services in this case, however I'm not sure LUL staff would actually know that and may let you through.
 

Zoe

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About 20 years ago I was on a cross-London transfer between Liverpool Street and Paddington. At Liverpool Street the barriers said "seek assistance" but we were allowed through. At Paddington the barriers said the same but it was then discovered that there was no Maltese Cross so we were sent to the excess window. No-one appeared at this window for some time and it was getting close to the departure time for the Cornish Riviera so in the end they let us through. For the return journey the tickets were endorsed so there was no issue.
 

Bungle73

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I'm pretty sure I've had cross-London tickets without the cross in the past and they worked the Tube barriers fine.
 

Zoe

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I'm pretty sure I've had cross-London tickets without the cross in the past and they worked the Tube barriers fine.
Not sure why this should have changed if without the Maltese Cross the ticket is not valid for use on the London Underground.
 

Zoe

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In most cases it is fine, but this is a perculiar example.
Why should it be fine if it's not valid? I wouldn't want anyone to get into the same situation we were in where the London Underground staff were refusing to let us out of the station and we were risking missing the Cornish Riviera.
 

transportphoto

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How much did you pay for your ticket? Have you got a railcard discount on them? What two stations appear on the tickets?

I have had a look for High Wycombe to Glasgow Cen/Qst and can't see any tickets other than those routed Banbury Preston that don't include a maltese cross... all advance purchase ones do.

This may be a printing error.

TP
 

hairyhandedfool

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Why should it be fine if it's not valid? I wouldn't want anyone to get into the same situation we were in where the London Underground staff were refusing to let us out of the station and we were risking missing the Cornish Riviera.
What I mean is, most journeys involving a cross London trip, use of the Underground is fine. In the case of going from High Wycombe, unless the ticket has a Maltese Cross on it, I can't see a way that it is valid for use on LUL services.
 

General Zod

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The ticket is marked VWC & Connections. I've checked the booking details for the journey on RSH and it states changing at London Marylebone for London Underground to London Euston.
See below :

 

transportphoto

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Ahh.... So you haven't actually got the tickets as yet? I wouldn't panic :smile: Unless the tickets print with out the maltese cross there is nothing to worry about. I don't think RSH show the Maltese cross online travel summaries.

TP
 

Clip

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But did the tickets you booked say the same? As above poster has said are you sure your journey that you selected was not via Banbury ??
 

Zoe

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What I mean is, most journeys involving a cross London trip, use of the Underground is fine. In the case of going from High Wycombe, unless the ticket has a Maltese Cross on it, I can't see a way that it is valid for use on LUL services.
Same goes for Gidea Park to Redruth though, this route would clearly involve the London Underground but the staff still refused to accept the ticket as it didn't have a Maltese Cross.
 

General Zod

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I already have the tickets. They were collected from a TVM last week. They do not show a Maltese Cross and the accompanying booking reservation ticket/coupon is for a London Euston - Glasgow Central train. The screencap is the 'journey detail' of the booking. You can view details of your recent bookings on RSH.

Walking to Euston from Marylebone does not actually bother me as I do it almost everyday, but on this occasion I will have luggage and if my train into Marylebone is slightly delayed then I may have to resort to transport.
 

Brucey

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VWC & CONNECTNS shows a maltese cross in the fares manual. Not sure why it hasn't been printed?!

The asterisk is because the destination station is shorter than a specified number of characters.
 

bb21

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The ticket is marked VWC & Connections. I've checked the booking details for the journey on RSH and it states changing at London Marylebone for London Underground to London Euston.
See below :

Ahh.... So you haven't actually got the tickets as yet? I wouldn't panic :smile: Unless the tickets print with out the maltese cross there is nothing to worry about. I don't think RSH show the Maltese cross online travel summaries.

TP
My understanding from what he wrote is that he has already obtained the paper tickets, which do not have the Maltese Cross, so he went back to check his online booking details.

Edit: Too late. See two posts above.

@OP. It is valid for a cross-London transfer, however I would certainly bring a copy of the itinerary with me if I were you, as LU staff are not very well versed on such matter sometimes.
 

Zoe

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Gidea Park-Redruth (along with many other journeys from Gidea Park) is valid for LUL services to cross London.
I don't doubt that it is but wouldn't there still need to be a Maltese Cross? In this case the London Underground staff refused to accept the ticket was valid as it didn't have a Maltese Cross. For the return journey as I say, the ticket was endorsed and if the lack of a Maltese Cross didn't change validity then why would they have needed to endorse the ticket? Not sure if the rules were different 20 years ago though.
 

General Zod

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I blanked out the trains times and seat reservations on the screencap which led to some confusion. Sorry about that.
BB21 : I will take a print out just in case.
 

hairyhandedfool

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I don't doubt that it is but wouldn't there still need to be a Maltese Cross? In this case the London Underground staff refused to accept the ticket was valid as it didn't have a Maltese Cross. For the return journey as I say, the ticket was endorsed and if the lack of a Maltese Cross didn't change validity then why would they have needed to endorse the ticket? Not sure if the rules were different 20 years ago though.
Well, yes, there should be a Maltese Cross, but even without it, the ticket is valid because of the Routeing Guide (introduced in 1996), that is not the case with High Wycombe.
 

Zoe

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Well, yes, there should be a Maltese Cross, but even without it, the ticket is valid because of the Routeing Guide (introduced in 1996), that is not the case with High Wycombe.
It's a valid route yes but don't the London Underground need to see the Maltese Cross to accept validity? As I said, in my example they were quite insistent that it was not valid even though the route clearly involved using the London Underground.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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The National Routeing Guide (which I doubt LUL staff are briefed on) clearly states that routeing code is 'London', cross London travel by LUL and DLR is included in the price (Routeing Guide Instructions, step 6). This is the case with Gidea Park-Plymouth, but not with High Wycombe-Glasgow.

So, it should really have the '+' symbol, but LUL staff should still accept it without the '+' symbol
 

island

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It is unlikely that the ticket will be accepted by LUL. That doesn't mean it isn't valid, but I suspect you may want to save yourself the bother and spend the £2 Oyster fare.
 

Deerfold

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It is unlikely that the ticket will be accepted by LUL. That doesn't mean it isn't valid, but I suspect you may want to save yourself the bother and spend the £2 Oyster fare.
Or less on the 205 bus with no change required (also possible with a walk to Baker Street...) and no steps.
 

transmanche

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The National Routeing Guide (which I doubt LUL staff are briefed on) clearly states that routeing code is 'London', cross London travel by LUL and DLR is included in the price (Routeing Guide Instructions, step 6). This is the case with Gidea Park-Plymouth, but not with High Wycombe-Glasgow.

So, it should really have the '+' symbol, but LUL staff should still accept it without the '+' symbol
We had a similar thread recently.

LU staff are not trained on the National Routeing Guide (indeed why should they be?). The information that LU give to their staff is simple and straightforward - if it's got a maltese cross, then it's ok; if not, then passengers have to buy a separate ticket. (Although in practice, you might find that LU staff just wave you through.)

It's up to the ATOC members (and specifically TOC setting the fare to make) sure that the + appears on appropriate tickets.
 

yorkie

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It's a valid route yes but don't the London Underground need to see the Maltese Cross to accept validity? As I said, in my example they were quite insistent that it was not valid even though the route clearly involved using the London Underground.
Routeing Guide said:
If the routeing code is "LONDON", journeys include the cost of cross-London
transfer either by London Underground or Thameslink services. In all cases
the transfer points should be along the correct line of route given by the
‘permitted route’ map combinations.
The via London, Maltese Cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket
may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket
specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to
use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the
Routeing Guide.
In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the
Manual will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese
cross symbol
. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via
London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel
via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted
.
Okay that refers to Any Permitted tickets, however the principle is that tickets do not have to have the maltese cross symbol to be valid via London. They should have it, but mistakes do occur.

My understanding is that LU get a lump sum for all cross-London journeys rather than be allocated money from any individual sale anyway, but I am not entirely certain about that (not that revenue allocation ever determines validity!)

Paddington is unlikely to be an issue, as the the H&C line platforms are beyond the same gatelines used by FGW services (and if interchanging from high numbered platforms to LU trains on the H&C platforms you do not pass through a barrier).

Euston Square may be an issue though, but that's only one place to argue your case rather than two.

I've done battle at King's Cross before, to get to Paddington (obviously no issue at Paddington), I won by bringing a copy of the relevant documentation such as the page of the Routeing Guide, itinerary & reservations showing travel via LU. One person wasn't co-operative but his colleague told him "he's right, let them through" after a while ;)
 
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