Cross-London travel on PRT (Paper Roll Tickets that have a barcode)

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Sprinter153

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Hi all,

Just purchased an SVR (Off Peak Return) from South Hampstead to Bury St Edmunds routed +Any Permitted from the ticket office at Tamworth. It came on paper roll stock.

I haven’t travelled to London for over a year - is it still the case that TfL (Transport for London) won’t accept PRT (Paper Roll Tickets) barcode tickets for travel on the Underground?

The clerk and LNR (London Northwestern Railway) Twitter are adamant that LU (London Underground) gateline staff will manually open the gates but I know they were strongly opposed to these tickets the last time I travelled.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!
 
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Watershed

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If you've been issued it, it's valid (although I think the policy is normally that Maltese Cross tickets shouldn't be issued on loo roll).

If LUL staff refuse to let you through, pay normally and then raise a complaint asking for a refund.
 

cactustwirly

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Hi all,

Just purchased an SVR (Off Peak Return) from South Hampstead to Bury St Edmunds routed +Any Permitted from the ticket office at Tamworth. It came on paper roll stock.

I haven’t travelled to London for over a year - is it still the case that TfL won’t accept PRT barcode tickets for travel on the Underground?

The clerk and LNR Twitter are adamant that LUL gateline staff will manually open the gates but I know they were strongly opposed to these tickets the last time I travelled.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated!

The LU gates don't have barcodes, so you won't be able to use your ticket for the Underground legs.
LNR should have sold you a normal magnetic strip ticket
 

357

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Just because the ticket does not open the gates does not mean you can not use it. The ticket IS valid, however you will need to find staff to open the gate for you.

Ticket validity does not base itself on the ticket stock the ticket is printed on working in the gates. If this was the case, then about 80% of season tickets printed on magnetic strip would be invalid as they don't open the gates!
 

Haywain

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LNR should have sold you a normal magnetic strip ticket
There's not much LNR can do about it - the permitted fulfilment methods are set by the fare setting TOC (Greater Anglia), and used by the ticket issuing system to determine how the ticket is issued. The ticketing system will not provide the operator with a choice of how to print the ticket.
 

Watershed

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The ticketing system will not provide the operator with a choice of how to print the ticket.
Perhaps that is true for some systems, but I am aware of at least one TIS which give the option to override the default fulfilment method (to be CCST instead of PRT, for example).
 

Bletchleyite

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There's not much LNR can do about it - the permitted fulfilment methods are set by the fare setting TOC (Greater Anglia), and used by the ticket issuing system to determine how the ticket is issued. The ticketing system will not provide the operator with a choice of how to print the ticket.

Well, a skilled and proactive member of booking office staff would realise it was wrong and would cause issues for the passenger, so would non-issue it and suggest they go and purchase one from the TVM instead (as the WMT TVMs only issue on CCST) and come back for any reservations desired, then report the issue for resolution.
 

Haywain

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Well, a skilled and proactive member of booking office staff would realise it was wrong and would cause issues for the passenger, so would non-issue it and suggest they go and purchase one from the TVM instead (as the WMT TVMs only issue on CCST) and come back for any reservations desired, then report the issue for resolution.
I can't argue with that. Unfortunately you've listed two qualities which not all booking office staff possess.
 

Sprinter153

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Thanks everyone.

Unfortunately this was a privilege rate ticket so needed to be purchased at a ticket office. The clerk was quite intemperate when asked for clarification.

Underground staff at Euston Square would not accept the tickets so there was the further cost of contactless payments.
 

Bletchleyite

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Unfortunately this was a privilege rate ticket so needed to be purchased at a ticket office. The clerk was quite intemperate when asked for clarification.

One of the many ticket office staff (at smallish stations where most vulnerable) trying to put themselves out of a job, I see :(

Underground staff at Euston Square would not accept the tickets so there was the further cost of contactless payments.

Make sure to complain to LNR as the ticket seller (that it's GA's fault in the data is not your problem) and reclaim the cost, also mention the unhelpful staff in your letter.
 

DJ_K666

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If you had to use Contactless then surely a charge back is the way, telling your bank it's for non-acceptance of a valid ticket and payment extracted by duress. Let's see what TFL say to the gate line staff. Certainly ask for clarification from a supervisor at Euston though as the staff might not know/might not have encountered that ticket before/might be new.
 

Paul Kelly

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the permitted fulfilment methods are set by the fare setting TOC (Greater Anglia), and used by the ticket issuing system to determine how the ticket is issued.
Are you sure this fare is enabled for issue on paper roll tickets? It doesn't look like it to me but I can't be fully sure.
 

Watershed

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If you had to use Contactless then surely a charge back is the way, telling your bank it's for non-acceptance of a valid ticket and payment extracted by duress. Let's see what TFL say to the gate line staff. Certainly ask for clarification from a supervisor at Euston though as the staff might not know/might not have encountered that ticket before/might be new.
Unfortunately a chargeback is not going to get you anywhere except having your card blocked by TfL.

OP needs to raise a complaint with TfL, for refusing a valid ticket, and WMT, for selling a ticket in a format which caused them problems.
 

Haywain

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Are you sure this fare is enabled for issue on paper roll tickets? It doesn't look like it to me but I can't be fully sure.
I've just checked on the TIS I have and this is not (now?) set for PRT fulfilment.
 

Journeyman

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Perhaps that is true for some systems, but I am aware of at least one TIS which give the option to override the default fulfilment method (to be CCST instead of PRT, for example).
Likewise, although of course it depends what printers are available.
 

Haywain

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Perhaps that is true for some systems, but I am aware of at least one TIS which give the option to override the default fulfilment method (to be CCST instead of PRT, for example).
Which TIS is that, as a matter of interest?
 

swt_passenger

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Unfortunately a chargeback is not going to get you anywhere except having your card blocked by TfL.

OP needs to raise a complaint with TfL, for refusing a valid ticket, and WMT, for selling a ticket in a format which caused them problems.
Does the agreement between TfL and RDG allow for paper roll tickets? I thought it had previously been found it didn’t, so TfL are not required to accept them yet, (and probably never will because they’ll slow down gateline operation)...
 

Watershed

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Does the agreement between TfL and RDG allow for paper roll tickets? I thought it had previously been found it didn’t, so TfL are not required to accept them yet, (and probably never will because they’ll slow down gateline operation)...
The agreement between TfL and RDG is no more the passenger's concern than the Track Access Agreement their chosen TOC has with Network Rail, or the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement between the retailer and RSP (and indirectly the TOC).

If a ticket contains a Maltese Cross and/or states that it is valid to use the Underground to cross London, the requisite 'apparent authority' to bind TfL is clearly there. It's not as if the retailer is a random ticket tout. It is a matter for TfL to take up with the issuing retailer if they are annoyed that the retailer sold a ticket in a medium which TfL does not like.

There is a constrast to be drawn with e-tickets, as when buying those (online), you will be given a link to additional conditions applying to the use of e-tickets. One of these is that e-tickets can't be used on the Underground. It is unlikely that any such condition is pointed out when PRT is used in a ticket office sale.
 
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Haywain

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The agreement between TfL and RDG is no more the passenger's concern than the Track Access Agreement their chosen TOC has with Network Rail, or the Ticketing and Settlement Agreement between the retailer and RSP (and indirectly the TOC).

If a ticket contains a Maltese Cross and/or states that it is valid to use the Underground to cross London, the requisite 'apparent authority' to bind TfL is clearly there. It's not as if the retailer is a random ticket tout. It is a matter for TfL to take up with the issuing retailer if they are annoyed that the retailer sold a ticket in a medium which TfL does not like.
As the OP has already indicated, it's all very well knowing that but getting TfL staff to accept it is an entirely different matter.
 

Watershed

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Likewise, although of course it depends what printers are available.
True, however any ticket office that doesn't have a CCST printer will be unable to sell a fair number of tickets.

Which TIS is that, as a matter of interest?
Avocet (TTK).

As the OP has already indicated, it's all very well knowing that but getting TfL staff to accept it is an entirely different matter.
It's quite simple, you complain to TfL and continue doing so each time it happens until the situation is solved - either through cross-London fulfilment on PRT being properly prevented, and/or through retraining staff.
 

RPI

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On avocet if you attempt to fulfil to PRT then you get a warning message telling you that the journey involves TfL, I would have thought the Booking clerk could have issued to ToD so you could collect from one of the TVM's if they didn't have CCST and it was a ticket not available from the TVM?
 

Haywain

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It's quite simple, you complain to TfL and continue doing so each time it happens until the situation is solved - either through cross-London fulfilment on PRT being properly prevented, and/or through retraining staff.
And TfL will simply say that it's the fault of the company that sold the ticket, who will be fully aware that TfL do not accept PRT.
 

Watershed

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And TfL will simply say that it's the fault of the company that sold the ticket, who will be fully aware that TfL do not accept PRT.
TfL might want to think again if that is their stance. They could otherwise be committing the offence of engaging in aggressive trading practices. The Boundary Zone fare class action indicates the kind of consequences there might be.

I don't doubt that it is easiest to avoid the whole situation, by objecting to the issuance of a ticket on PRT, if intending to use it on the Tube. But it would be wrong to think that one has no recourse if the ticket is then wrongly rejected.
 

matt_world2004

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I know tfl had a problem with Chiltern railways accidentally issuing some tickets valid on tfl services on barcode ticket format the advice in the ticketing and revenue guide was to continue to accept them until Chiltern updated their system
 
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