Crosscountry fine

[User4675]

On the 8th March I travelled from Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Airport Parkway and had booked my return ticket through trainline. I have a 16-25 saver railcard but had selected 16-17 when booking the ticket. I didn't realise this until one of the revenue protection team members on the train checked my ticket and pointed it out. She said I got lucky that it was her checking it and not the train manager as she will only charge me the difference in ticket price (around £25) instead of charging me the full ticket price again. She stated that I would receive a letter through the post explaining how to pay for the ticket and took some details off me to get it all sorted. She printed me out a new valid ticket and said to use that instead of the Trainline one.

I received a letter from IRCAS yesterday and the fine is a bit more than £25. As far as I can tell they want a £100 settlement fee and a £526.50 fee to avoid legal proceedings.

I tried to call IRCAS to ask why the fee was so high and not the £25 amount I was told on the train but I'm unable to call a premium line. I tried calling CrossCountry but they just referred me to the IRCAS number every time.

I know I messed up when buying the ticket but is a £626.50 fine right when I was told I would only have to pay the difference in ticket price on the train?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Knoodlepot]

On the 8th March I travelled from Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Airport Parkway and had booked my return ticket through trainline. I have a 16-25 saver railcard but had selected 16-17 when booking the ticket. I didn't realise this until one of the revenue protection team members on the train checked my ticket and pointed it out. She said I got lucky that it was her checking it and not the train manager as she will only charge me the difference in ticket price (around £25) instead of charging me the full ticket price again. She stated that I would receive a letter through the post explaining how to pay for the ticket and took some details off me to get it all sorted. She printed me out a new valid ticket and said to use that instead of the Trainline one.

I received a letter from IRCAS yesterday and the fine is a bit more than £25. As far as I can tell they want a £100 settlement fee and a £526.50 fee to avoid legal proceedings.

I tried to call IRCAS to ask why the fee was so high and not the £25 amount I was told on the train but I'm unable to call a premium line. I tried calling CrossCountry but they just referred me to the IRCAS number every time.

I know I messed up when buying the ticket but is a £626.50 fine right when I was told I would only have to pay the difference in ticket price on the train?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Have you bought other 16-17 saver tickets before?

 

[User4675]

Have you bought other 16-17 saver tickets before?

When I was 17 I had the 16-17 railcard yes but when I turned 18 I bought the 16-25 railcard.

 

[AlterEgo]

When I was 17 I had the 16-17 railcard yes but when I turned 18 I bought the 16-25 railcard.

You should respond with an apology, asking the basis of the fare amount, as they have not explained why it is so high. It doesn’t seem to be based on just one journey and may be an error.

 

[User4675]

You should respond with an apology, asking the basis of the fare amount, as they have not explained why it is so high. It doesn’t seem to be based on just one journey and may be an error.

Respond to IRCAS? If so is it best to respond on their form or by post?
Thanks

 

[jumble]

On the 8th March I travelled from Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Airport Parkway and had booked my return ticket through trainline. I have a 16-25 saver railcard but had selected 16-17 when booking the ticket. I didn't realise this until one of the revenue protection team members on the train checked my ticket and pointed it out. She said I got lucky that it was her checking it and not the train manager as she will only charge me the difference in ticket price (around £25) instead of charging me the full ticket price again. She stated that I would receive a letter through the post explaining how to pay for the ticket and took some details off me to get it all sorted. She printed me out a new valid ticket and said to use that instead of the Trainline one.

I received a letter from IRCAS yesterday and the fine is a bit more than £25. As far as I can tell they want a £100 settlement fee and a £526.50 fee to avoid legal proceedings.

I tried to call IRCAS to ask why the fee was so high and not the £25 amount I was told on the train but I'm unable to call a premium line. I tried calling CrossCountry but they just referred me to the IRCAS number every time.

I know I messed up when buying the ticket but is a £626.50 fine right when I was told I would only have to pay the difference in ticket price on the train?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

It looks to me like a typo as it refers to fare avoided ( maybe 26.50)
I would email them and ask for clarification as well as following Hadders usual advice on mitigation
I am a bit doubtful that IRCAS would produce a random figure accounting for previous misdemeanours without some type of qualification

 

[User4675]

It looks to me like a typo as it refers to fare avoided ( maybe 26.50)
I would email them and ask for clarification as well as following Hadders usual advice on mitigation
I am a bit doubtful that IRCAS would produce a random figure accounting for previous misdemeanours without some type of qualification

Let's hope so. Do you know what their email is I've only seen the paid phone number and the post address.

What is Hadders advice?

Thanks

 

[Fawkes Cat]

On the 8th March I travelled from Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Airport Parkway and had booked my return ticket through trainline. I have a 16-25 saver railcard but had selected 16-17 when booking the ticket. I didn't realise this until one of the revenue protection team members on the train checked my ticket and pointed it out. She said I got lucky that it was her checking it and not the train manager as she will only charge me the difference in ticket price (around £25) instead of charging me the full ticket price again. She stated that I would receive a letter through the post explaining how to pay for the ticket and took some details off me to get it all sorted. She printed me out a new valid ticket and said to use that instead of the Trainline one.

I received a letter from IRCAS yesterday and the fine is a bit more than £25. As far as I can tell they want a £100 settlement fee and a £526.50 fee to avoid legal proceedings.

I tried to call IRCAS to ask why the fee was so high and not the £25 amount I was told on the train but I'm unable to call a premium line. I tried calling CrossCountry but they just referred me to the IRCAS number every time.

I know I messed up when buying the ticket but is a £626.50 fine right when I was told I would only have to pay the difference in ticket price on the train?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

There's two issues here

- what you were told on the train: it's something we hear quite a lot, that what was said is less frightening than what actually happened. This seems to be down to traincrew not wanting a fight, and we don't have a good answer to it.
- the amount being demanded. This does seem to be excessive in that what is normally asked for is the full, undiscounted train fare plus an admin fee. Looking at https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=MIA&dest=SOA&period=20250102 (which isn't official but uses official railway data) I don't see any standard fare as high as £526.50.

My view is that you should contact IRCAS (as I now see others have also advised) but be aware that this may still leave you paying a fare of £242.10, plus the £100 admin fee.

 

[User4675]

Thanks. I'm obviously not a mind reader but I was one of the only people in the carriage and the woman seemed to be quite nice and calm about everything but I suppose it's an unfortunate possibility.

Is this admin fee quite typical then for IRCAS?

Thanks

 

[furlong]

So you agreed at the time to settle the matter for the difference in fare, a figure of precisely how much?
Why didn't you pay it on the spot?
What does the paperwork you were given at the time say on it? Does this state the amount and corroborate your claim? Or does it state that an additional £100 will be added if paid later?

Precisely what ticket did you hold and how much had you paid for it? It should be possible to reproduce the calculation to arrive at the exact same figure.

It's your word against theirs but they should not go back on whatever was agreed.

 

[Haywain]

Respond to IRCAS? If so is it best to respond on their form or by post?

No, to the address on the top of the letter, or the email address in the underlined section of the letter. The only involvement that IRCAS have with this is to handle the payment.

 

[reb0118]

Generally, payment of the difference in fare would have to be paid there and then.

 

[AlterEgo]

Generally, payment of the difference in fare would have to be paid there and then.

Yes. And if it goes to the back office like this, they demand the Anytime fare. Regardless, the amount seems too high.

 

[WesternLancer]

On the 8th March I travelled from Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Airport Parkway and had booked my return ticket through trainline. I have a 16-25 saver railcard but had selected 16-17 when booking the ticket. I didn't realise this until one of the revenue protection team members on the train checked my ticket and pointed it out. She said I got lucky that it was her checking it and not the train manager as she will only charge me the difference in ticket price (around £25) instead of charging me the full ticket price again. She stated that I would receive a letter through the post explaining how to pay for the ticket and took some details off me to get it all sorted. She printed me out a new valid ticket and said to use that instead of the Trainline one.

I received a letter from IRCAS yesterday and the fine is a bit more than £25. As far as I can tell they want a £100 settlement fee and a £526.50 fee to avoid legal proceedings.

I tried to call IRCAS to ask why the fee was so high and not the £25 amount I was told on the train but I'm unable to call a premium line. I tried calling CrossCountry but they just referred me to the IRCAS number every time.

I know I messed up when buying the ticket but is a £626.50 fine right when I was told I would only have to pay the difference in ticket price on the train?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

You have my sympathy

The problem with these conversations on the train is often that they seem to be deigned to prevent undue escalation or not to create worry for the passenger.

Is it possible they took your details and said (or lead you to believe which is not exactly the same as actually saying it) that you would get charged the difference in ticket price from the process they would enact when passing on your details to the back office. I suspect in some cases staff genuinely believe this is what the outcome of the process might actually be - when I suspect that such an outcome is in fact very rare indeed. And you would be very unlikely to have any proof of what was said unless you had asked them to give you something in writing or you had recorded them, in which case I suspect they would suddenly become much more cautious in what they might have said to you.

 

[AlterEgo]

You have my sympathy

The problem with these conversations on the train is often that they seem to be deigned to prevent undue escalation or not to create worry for the passenger.

Is it possible they took your details and said (or lead you to believe which is not exactly the same as actually saying it) that you would get charged the difference in ticket price from the process they would enact when passing on your details to the back office. I suspect in some cases staff genuinely believe this is what the outcome of the process might actually be - when I suspect that such an outcome is in fact very rare indeed. And you would be very unlikely to have any proof of what was said unless you had asked them to give you something in writing or you had recorded them, in which case I suspect they would suddenly become much more cautious in what they might have said to you.

What was said on the train is also immaterial anyway. The OP committed an offence and whether the person who caught them spoke softly in their ear or not doesn’t change the facts of the matter, unfortunately.

 

[WesternLancer]

What was said on the train is also immaterial anyway. The OP committed an offence and whether the person who caught them spoke softly in their ear or not doesn’t change the facts of the matter, unfortunately.

Indeed. But I doubt many passengers would see it that way.... they would see it as a trick to extract much more money out of them.

Not unlike the other recent thread involving cross country where the passenger said if they had understood what was happening properly after speaking to staff they would have got off the train at the next station call and bought a new correct ticket.

 

[methecooldude]

When I was 17 I had the 16-17 railcard yes but when I turned 18 I bought the 16-25 railcard.

With respect, that was not the question that was asked. When you turned 18 until today, and had the 16-25 railcard, have you purchased any other tickets discounted with a 16-17 saver (accidently or otherwise)

 

[User4675]

So you agreed at the time to settle the matter for the difference in fare, a figure of precisely how much?
Why didn't you pay it on the spot?
What does the paperwork you were given at the time say on it? Does this state the amount and corroborate your claim? Or does it state that an additional £100 will be added if paid later?

Precisely what ticket did you hold and how much had you paid for it? It should be possible to reproduce the calculation to arrive at the exact same figure.

It's your word against theirs but they should not go back on whatever was agreed.

Yes I agreed to pay the difference. She didn't say how much that would be but I believe it is around £25. I wasn't provided the opportunity to pay on the spot I was told I had to pay via this letter which I would receive. I wasn't given any paperwork I just filled in a revenue protection sheet with my information and received a new ticket printed out with the revenue officer's name written on the back.

I held a return ticket from Piccadilly to Southampton Airport Parkway with a 16-17 railcard applied. I paid £77.75 for the ticket + £7.08 for the booking fee and travel insurance through trainline.

No, to the address on the top of the letter, or the email address in the underlined section of the letter. The only involvement that IRCAS have with this is to handle the payment.

I see ok. Thanks

Generally, payment of the difference in fare would have to be paid there and then.

As I mentioned in a reply just then I wasn't asked to pay on the spot the revenue officer specifically said I was to pay when I receive a letter through the post.

You have my sympathy

The problem with these conversations on the train is often that they seem to be deigned to prevent undue escalation or not to create worry for the passenger.

Is it possible they took your details and said (or lead you to believe which is not exactly the same as actually saying it) that you would get charged the difference in ticket price from the process they would enact when passing on your details to the back office. I suspect in some cases staff genuinely believe this is what the outcome of the process might actually be - when I suspect that such an outcome is in fact very rare indeed. And you would be very unlikely to have any proof of what was said unless you had asked them to give you something in writing or you had recorded them, in which case I suspect they would suddenly become much more cautious in what they might have said to you.

Whether the staff member was aware or not she made herself very clear that I would only be charged the difference in ticket price as she compared it to if I had been caught by the train manager stating he would have charged me for a full new ticket. If she said this honestly or to mislead me you'd have to ask her.

With respect, that was not the question that was asked. When you turned 18 until today, and had the 16-25 railcard, have you purchased any other tickets discounted with a 16-17 saver (accidently or otherwise)

No I have not purchased any tickets with an expired railcard besides this return ticket to Southampton.

 

[WesternLancer]

Whether the staff member was aware or not she made herself very clear that I would only be charged the difference in ticket price as she compared it to if I had been caught by the train manager stating he would have charged me for a full new ticket. If she said this honestly or to mislead me you'd have to ask her.

The problem is its the court that would be asking you (if it got that far, which has to be avoided in my view), and you can't prove what was said. And this is the big problem with these situations.

£7.08 for the booking fee and travel insurance through trainline.

That's money almost certainly wasted I fear.

I think you need to prepare a letter to them asking if they can outline how they have arrived at the sum being requested. Post the draft of your letter here before you send it for checking.

 

[User4675]

The problem is its the court that would be asking you (if it got that far, which has to be avoided in my view), and you can't prove what was said. And this is the big problem with these situations.


That's money almost certainly wasted I fear.

I think you need to prepare a letter to them asking if they can outline how they have arrived at the sum being requested. Post the draft of your letter here before you send it for checking.

Are there any sort of templates for the letter I have never had to do anything like this before?
Thanks

 

[island]

Whether the staff member was aware or not she made herself very clear that I would only be charged the difference in ticket price as she compared it to if I had been caught by the train manager stating he would have charged me for a full new ticket. If she said this honestly or to mislead me you'd have to ask her.

Even if:

1. The staff member did say this
2. The staff member was authorised to say this
3. You can prove the above

the promise is still not binding on CrossCountry in law, because you did not give any consideration in return for it. So, frustrating as this might seem, you need to put all that to one side and focus on trying to avoid going to court.

As others mention, I am not able to see any justification for the fare of £526.50. This should be, at most, £156.70 for an anytime single ticket from Manchester P to Southampton AP (Route Not Via London). I would suggest politely contacting the given address or email asking if they could give more details of how they have come up with the sum and suggesting £156.70 as an alternative.

 

[User4675]

Even if:

1. The staff member did say this
2. The staff member was authorised to say this
3. You can prove the above

the promise is still not binding on CrossCountry in law, because you did not give any consideration in return for it. So, frustrating as this might seem, you need to put all that to one side and focus on trying to avoid going to court.

As others mention, I am not able to see any justification for the fare of £526.50. This should be, at most, £156.70 for an anytime single ticket from Manchester P to Southampton AP (Route Not Via London). I would suggest politely contacting the given address or email asking if they could give more details of how they have come up with the sum and suggesting £156.70 as an alternative.

Thanks I will do.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks I will do.

But do post your draft up here for checking before sending. It’s really important the language is correct and you don’t say something that might work against you. Though island’s advice is the guidance you need.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

As others mention, I am not able to see any justification for the fare of £526.50. This should be, at most, £156.70 for an anytime single ticket from Manchester P to Southampton AP (Route Not Via London). I would suggest politely contacting the given address or email asking if they could give more details of how they have come up with the sum and suggesting £156.70 as an alternative.

Is the £156.70 you mention correct? I have the Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Airport Parkway Anytime Day Single (route Not via London) fare as £163.90 if the travel was on Saturday 08 March 2025. Fares went up the previous Sunday.

 

[island]

Is the £156.70 you mention correct? I have the Manchester Piccadilly to Southampton Airport Parkway Anytime Day Single (route Not via London) fare as £163.90 if the travel was on Saturday 08 March 2025. Fares went up the previous Sunday.

You are quite right. The dropdown on BRFares confused me.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks I will do.

Hi - not sure if you have prepared / sent your reply yet but in terms of content I would suggest including (and keep each bit as brief as you can)

assuming all the below is true and accurate

- start with an apology for being on the train with an incorrect ticket
- make it clear this was a genuine error when you purchased it on line and the wrong Railcard was selected by mistake
- make it clear you had no intention to travel without paying the correct fare
- make it clear that in conversation with train staff you understood clearly that you would be contacted and asked to pay the difference in fare (state the time and date of the concerned - ie the xx.xx departure from Manchester Piccadilly to Y destination on zz date. And that you expected that to be in the region of £xx as advised by the member staff on the train
- mention that you offered to make that payment on board
- say that you are now surprised to be being asked for a much greater sum of £xxx, and that this sum seems considerably higher than even the Anytime Single fare for the journey concerned
- ask them if they can break down how they have arrived at the sum they are asking for
- ask them if they can kindly consider allowing you to pay the difference in fare / the Off peak fare with your 16-25 Railcard (enclose a copy of your Railcard so you can prove that you have one)
- end by saying something like this "please be assured I am keen to resolve this matter amicably and co-operate with you over this, but I would be gratful if you could explain how you have arrived at the sum requested in your letter of xxxx"


@Fawkes Cat posted this on another thread and it's good advice ref the tone and approach to adopt

remember, you are asking the railway to be nice to you by not exercising their right to prosecute you for a crime. So you are not in a position to demand anything - instead you basically have to grovel.

I hope this is of help.

Post your draft up here if you want it checking before sending

I don't think you have posted a copy of the letter / communication you have received for them for us to read exactly what they are asking - which would be helpful if you can do so (but remember to blank out your personal details and ref number on anything you upload)

However
If you have been buying tickets with a 16-17 Railcard Discount of 50% applied to them when you do not have that Railcard, either by mistake or deliberately - you are in a totally different situation. You should check you on line purchase record to be 100% sure of that. Because if you have then my advice above would be different - either to simply pay the sum demanded now before it escalates to court prosecution, or do nothing more than ask for a breakdown from them so you can check if the sum demanded is correct in terms of reflecting the amount of fares you have not correctly paid. It is common for them to make no allowance for the money you did pay if they think you have been repeatedly doing this, and almost certain that they would do it if they think you have done it deliberately as pre meditated fare evasion.