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CrossCountry Voyagers: No interior decor change in 12 years and counting

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sprinterguy

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Is the guard also able to open just their local door if required?
Not sure on the protocol there, the driver usually releases the doors.
Would that be enough to cover all xc diagrams inc Cardiff and stansted?
Getting well into speculative territory, but yes if you dedicated all the 220s and 221s to XC inter-city services, for example, then the 222 fleet in addition to that is pretty much spot on to replace the 170 fleet, even if it was done indirectly (Through a small cascade of 220s onto 170 routes, for example).

Obviously you'd have to do some jiggery pokery with the 222 fleet and diagrams, such as reforming the 222s purely as 7 and 4-car units, and using 4-car units (220 or 222) only on Stansted services (Can Stansted handle a maximum of 4x23m carriage diesel units? I forget).
 
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Bletchleyite

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I think, but may be wrong, that putting the key on on a Voyager enables the passenger door buttons at that door for local door purposes.

At the very least it defeats closure, as the guard door remains open after the driver has pressed close.
 

pro4600

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Thanks sprinter guy for clearing that up. One more question sorry.
What is the compatibility issue with the 222 and 220/221 units?
 

sprinterguy

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Thanks sprinter guy for clearing that up. One more question sorry.
What is the compatibility issue with the 222 and 220/221 units?
Not a problem, they've got different Train Management Systems, as the 220/221s use a management system designed to be compatible with Pendolinos. Voyagers and Meridians can couple mechanically, but they won't 'talk' to each other electronically.
 

greatvoyager

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Not sure on the protocol there, the driver usually releases the doors.

Getting well into speculative territory, but yes if you dedicated all the 220s and 221s to XC inter-city services, for example, then the 222 fleet in addition to that is pretty much spot on to replace the 170 fleet, even if it was done indirectly (Through a small cascade of 220s onto 170 routes, for example).

Obviously you'd have to do some jiggery pokery with the 222 fleet and diagrams, such as reforming the 222s purely as 7 and 4-car units, and using 4-car units (220 or 222) only on Stansted services (Can Stansted handle a maximum of 4x23m carriage diesel units? I forget).
Could they put the 222s back into original formation of 9-car and 4-cars and refurbish them (or at least give them a deep clean)?
 

sprinterguy

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Could they put the 222s back into original formation of 9-car and 4-cars and refurbish them (or at least give them a deep clean)?
It'd certainly be possible if there was the will to do so. If using 220s or 222s to replace 170s something fairly drastic would need to be done to increase seating though, as at present a 4-car 220 has no more standard class seats than a 3-car 170, a 4-car 222 even less so with its composite vehicle. It'd be an increase in leasing, track access and fuel (and probably maintenance - 143 vehicles on the books as opposed to the current 74 class 170 vehicles has to make a difference) costs for little to no increase in capacity.

The additional costs could be offset to some extent if the 9 x 9-car units replaced Crosscountry's 48 HST vehicles though as well as providing an uplift in capacity on Scotland - South West services.
 

greatvoyager

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It'd certainly be possible if there was the will to do so. If using 220s or 222s to replace 170s something fairly drastic would need to be done to increase seating though, as at present a 4-car 220 has no more standard class seats than a 3-car 170, a 4-car 222 even less so with its composite vehicle. It'd be an increase in leasing, track access and fuel (and probably maintenance - 143 vehicles on the books as opposed to the current 74 class 170 vehicles has to make a difference) costs for little to no increase in capacity.

The additional costs could be offset to some extent if the 9 x 9-car units replaced Crosscountry's 48 HST vehicles though as well as providing an uplift in capacity on Scotland - South West services.
Could the change that by making the DMF into a composite coach for the Cardiff-Nottingham route?
 

33117

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Whatever they do firstly the crosscountry voyagers need a bloody long & extensive deep clean. At the moment they're absolutely minging!

12yrs without an interior refresh is stretching it a bit now plus the bodywork on them looks pretty scruffy too now.
 

greatvoyager

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Whatever they do firstly the crosscountry voyagers need a bloody long & extensive deep clean. At the moment they're absolutely minging!

12yrs without an interior refresh is stretching it a bit now plus the bodywork on them looks pretty scruffy too now.
They did get a refresh in 2014 with the existing fabric, and new fabric in 1st class, but they could do with a more substantial refurbishment. As you say though, a deep clean would be a great start...
 

O L Leigh

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Since this seems to have become the official Voyager speculation thread and has already drifted off-topic, perhaps now is a good time to correct a few misapprehensions.

10 car Voyagers have issues at short platforms at Chesterfield, Burton (217m) and Totnes (178m Up/193m Down). Based on current diagrams, with Avanti's twenty 221s it's possible for the majority of Scotland - South West services to be operated by 8 car pairs of 220s and everything else to be formed of 5 car 221s, possibly without having to retain the HSTs at all.

It's not just locations with short platforms, but locations where there is platform sharing. Lengthening Voyager services will be restrictive at New Street, for example, where these services currently occupy only one half of the platform. Extending them such that they need to occupy the entire platform would constrain the number of movements made through the station as well as making them too long to fit platforms currently used by XC services (e.g. Reading P3). Really the maximum length that could be considered without affecting pathing and platforming at New Street should be 6 cars, as the majority of half platforms can accommodate a train of this length.

As far as I am aware, 220s and 221s are not fitted with Selective Door Operation (Unlike the newer 222s).

EDIT: After some further research it turns out it is fitted but isn't currently in use.

Ah. A double Voyager could still only open the doors in one unit though right? Then passengers for Chesterfield etc could be told to board the front or rear five coaches?

Voyagers are not fitted with SDO. There are no SDO controls in the cab nor at the door positions and nothing on the TMS to suggest automatic operation. It's all or nothing. Whenever a Voyager formation is required to stop at a platform that is too short to accommodate it the rear car(s) must be physically locked out of use.

There are diagrams for double Voyagers where, due to insufficient staff, only one set is in use. This can also happen short term in response to disruption to aid service recovery. Where this happens, one entire unit (sometimes the front one) will be locked out of use.

Is the guard also able to open just their local door if required?

No, this is not possible. The guard's key simply overrides the door closing sequence at that specific door.

If using 220s or 222s to replace 170s something fairly drastic would need to be done to increase seating though, as at present a 4-car 220 has no more standard class seats than a 3-car 170, a 4-car 222 even less so with its composite vehicle.

There may be fewer seats but it is still a bigger train with much better luggage accommodation and toilet facilities. However, a number of stations served by Cl170s are 3 car maximum (Manea is 2), so this means that you immediately lose a coach due to the lack of SDO. Also, Cl22Xs are not permitted to run at SP differential speeds which will severely limit their effectiveness.

My own view is that Voyagers need to continue to be concentrated on the routes they currently serve and the Cl170 capacity dealt with as a separate issue. Given the extent to which these units are currently being cascaded there really ought to be some heading XC's way. The current talk is that the centre cars from the WMT fleet will be coming XC's way, but that's only six vehicles which isn't really enough.
 

virgintrain1

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Voyagers are not fitted with SDO. There are no SDO controls in the cab nor at the door positions and nothing on the TMS to suggest automatic operation. It's all or nothing.
Voyagers were built with SDO. It was built into the TMS. There was a trial on on a double set to Penzance when the Voyagers were being tested. However although it worked successfully it was touch screen based on the TMS and ASLEF did not approve so it was never used and hidden/disabled. However one day it might be possible to look at it again. But of course now it will be considered quite a old fashioned method compared to IETs.​
 

O L Leigh

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Then I stand corrected on that point. Given the number of TMS updates there have been down the years, do you imagine that the system still exists in the system?
 

sprinterguy

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It's not just locations with short platforms, but locations where there is platform sharing. Lengthening Voyager services will be restrictive at New Street, for example, where these services currently occupy only one half of the platform. Extending them such that they need to occupy the entire platform would constrain the number of movements made through the station as well as making them too long to fit platforms currently used by XC services (e.g. Reading P3). Really the maximum length that could be considered without affecting pathing and platforming at New Street should be 6 cars, as the majority of half platforms can accommodate a train of this length.
I've said it before, particularly in regard to Crosscountry services, that operational convenience should not outweigh providing trains of appropriate length to suit passenger demand. Dwell times at peak times often end up extended at New Street at present, resulting in late departures, as a result of standard class passengers who could once have dispersed themselves along the length of six carriages having to cram into three.

Granted I've no idea how it'd work but if platform utilisation had to be rejigged at New Street to accommodate one Crosscountry train an hour each way using the whole platform face (The Scotland - South West service) then so be it. I didn't think those services generally shared a platform anyway.
There may be fewer seats but it is still a bigger train with much better luggage accommodation and toilet facilities. However, a number of stations served by Cl170s are 3 car maximum (Manea is 2), so this means that you immediately lose a coach due to the lack of SDO. Also, Cl22Xs are not permitted to run at SP differential speeds which will severely limit their effectiveness.
I think that has to be the first time that I've seen Voyagers commended for their luggage space and toilets! But compared to 2 or 3-car Turbostars I guess that you're right. Personally I agree that Voyagers or Meridians would be an inappropriate solution for Crosscountry's regional routes - Sort of sledgehammer to crack a nut, with a lot of limitations - and they're better kept focused on inter-city services.

Thanks for confirming that there are intermediate stations on the Stansted route with platform length limitations, had a feeling there were but couldn't recall any specifics.
My own view is that Voyagers need to continue to be concentrated on the routes they currently serve and the Cl170 capacity dealt with as a separate issue. Given the extent to which these units are currently being cascaded there really ought to be some heading XC's way. The current talk is that the centre cars from the WMT fleet will be coming XC's way, but that's only six vehicles which isn't really enough.
All of the spare 170s are spoken for. Pity XC weren't in a position to shout up when there were so many up for grabs. In fact EMR seem to have been desperately scrabbling to get hold of sufficient units to meet their requirement for a homogenous regional fleet from any available source. Agreed also that the additional six carriages from WMT is a paltry consolation on routes crying out for more capacity.
Voyagers were built with SDO. It was built into the TMS. There was a trial on on a double set to Penzance when the Voyagers were being tested. However although it worked successfully it was touch screen based on the TMS and ASLEF did not approve so it was never used and hidden/disabled. However one day it might be possible to look at it again. But of course now it will be considered quite a old fashioned method compared to IETs.​
Thanks for that, that was the understanding I reached after I did a bit more hunting for info yesterday.
 
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O L Leigh

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I've said it before, particularly in regard to Crosscountry services, that operational convenience should not outweigh providing trains of appropriate length to suit passenger demand. Dwell times at peak times often end up extended at New Street at present, resulting in late departures, as a result of standard class passengers who could once have dispersed themselves along the length of six carriages having to cram into three.

Late departures from New Street are not solely due to passenger loading but because of the sheer effort of trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot. Yes there are issues with passengers congregating at the bottom of the stairs and only using the door immediately in front of them, but that also happens with 11 car Pendolinos so perhaps train length is a red herring. The major cause of delays at New Street is down to the large number of services arriving and departing, the number of conflicting movements in the station throat (and beyond) and only having two lines in and out at each end.

But you cannot divorce train capacity from infrastructure capacity. It's not a question of operational convenience but about making sure that you maximise the capacity you have available. The capacity at New Street is constrained by the number of platforms available and the access to them. If you're suddenly losing a half platform because one service is suddenly longer and needs the entire platform length, then you have potentially one service waiting outside for it to depart when it would have previously pulled up behind. Clearly you can see how this would have an impact on all the other service operating around it that also require access to New Street. If you lengthen services so that they are no longer able to share platforms then someone somewhere is going to suffer.

Granted I've no idea how it'd work but if platform utilisation had to be rejigged at New Street to accommodate one Crosscountry train an hour each way using the whole platform face (The Scotland - South West service) then so be it. I didn't think those services generally shared a platform anyway.

It happens perhaps more than you imagine. Plus if you're only going to strengthen one train per hour when there are eight arrivals and departures per hour (two each to and from Manchester, the North-East/Scotland, the South-West and the South Coast every hour) then you're hardly addressing the capacity issue.

Thanks for confirming that there are intermediate stations on the Stansted route with platform length limitations, had a feeling there were but couldn't recall any specifics.

There are short platforms also on the Nottingham route, but with the exception of Willington they can all accommodate 4 cars.

All of the spare 170s are spoken for. Pity XC weren't in a position to shout up when there were so many up for grabs. In fact EMR seem to have been desperately scrabbling to get hold of sufficient units to meet their requirement for a homogenous regional fleet from any available source. Agreed also that the additional six carriages from WMT is a paltry consolation on routes crying out for more capacity.

I don't think that's how it works. Rolling stock cascades are in any case controlled by the DfT who seem to be linking them solely to newly let franchises. I don't imagine for one moment that they are unaware of the overcrowding situation on XC, but they are not prepared to do much of anything about it at the moment.
 

sprinterguy

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Late departures from New Street are not solely due to passenger loading but because of the sheer effort of trying to squeeze a quart into a pint pot. Yes there are issues with passengers congregating at the bottom of the stairs and only using the door immediately in front of them, but that also happens with 11 car Pendolinos so perhaps train length is a red herring.

The major cause of delays at New Street is down to the large number of services arriving and departing, the number of conflicting movements in the station throat (and beyond) and only having two lines in and out at each end.
I don't believe that train length is a red herring. Yes there is an issue with passengers congregating around the bottom of the stairs at New Street, as at many stations, but daily personal experience demonstrates that passengers do spread themselves along the length of the imminent Crosscountry train, but a 4 car 220 only offers 69 metres of platform for perhaps 200 standard class passengers to spread themselves along. In normal service I often notice a cumulative delay at consecutive stations on services formed 4 car vice the booked 5, and the opposite effect when a 5 car deputises for a 4.

Number of services is a separate but very much valid concern when essentially a train every five minutes is being forced through the Birmingham - Wolverhampton corridor on at least one side of the hour, with a variety of stopping patterns and performance characteristics: There's no room for recovery once one train ends up delayed. The same must apply to the Coventry - Birmingham side too, especially with the increased Avanti Pendolino service.
But you cannot divorce train capacity from infrastructure capacity. It's not a question of operational convenience but about making sure that you maximise the capacity you have available. The capacity at New Street is constrained by the number of platforms available and the access to them. If you're suddenly losing a half platform because one service is suddenly longer and needs the entire platform length, then you have potentially one service waiting outside for it to depart when it would have previously pulled up behind. Clearly you can see how this would have an impact on all the other service operating around it that also require access to New Street. If you lengthen services so that they are no longer able to share platforms then someone somewhere is going to suffer.
Indeed, I certainly do appreciate the potential knock on effects on overall capacity, but operating short trains to suit platform availability IS operational convenience over passenger convenience. I mean, howay, if West Coast were currently operating solely a fleet of 6-car Pendolinos between Euston and Birmingham, with the same number of passengers at present, to suit the fact that terminating services only used one half platform, would anyone really be arguing that that's all that could be done? The clamourings for HS2 would be even louder than they are at present.

Crosscountry's HSTs pass through New Street several times a day, on various services over the course of a week, and obviously need a platform all to themselves (There are also some daily double Voyager services with the same requirement): Given the train planning desire to keep things as standardised as possible, particularly with a clock face hourly timetable, are the other services much different? In times of disruption, perhaps it offers some element of flexibility.
It happens perhaps more than you imagine. Plus if you're only going to strengthen one train per hour when there are eight arrivals and departures per hour (two each to and from Manchester, the North-East/Scotland, the South-West and the South Coast every hour) then you're hardly addressing the capacity issue.
Using 8-car formations on Scotland - South West services targets what I have seen as the services most in need of increased capacity: Everything else that's currently 4-car being expanded to 5-car would be sufficient in many instances and doesn't sacrifice platform capacity at locations where use of half or short platforms is operationally convenient. There's an all day 8-car diagram each Friday on Manchester - Bournemouth, so additional strengthening if possible of targeted busy services presumably wouldn't be insurmountable anyway.
There are short platforms also on the Nottingham route, but with the exception of Willington they can all accommodate 4 cars.
Ah I'd forgotten about Willington, despite having used it once in the past.
I don't think that's how it works. Rolling stock cascades are in any case controlled by the DfT who seem to be linking them solely to newly let franchises. I don't imagine for one moment that they are unaware of the overcrowding situation on XC, but they are not prepared to do much of anything about it at the moment.
I've worked on both the franchising and operator sides of the railway, that's exactly how it works: The rolling stock strategy is set at the start of a franchise when DfT choose a winning bidder. This is tied to annual premium, subsidy and revenue targets that permit little to no deviation from that plan. Crosscountry have been tied into a direct award since October 2016, with an optional year which has been taken up that takes them through to October 2020. Had the franchise been fully relet at some point in the interim then potential new operators would have been closer to the front of the queue to enter negotiations with the leasing companies to secure additional 170s ahead of both Transport for Wales and East Midlands Railway. As it is that ship has long since sailed and XC are left scrabbling for the scraps dropped from other operator's tables.
 
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