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Crossfail to cost rail projects

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Bighat

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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...etails/Crossrail+to+halt+new+lines/article.do

It looks like the flawed east-west rail link, will now cost Londoners several other schemes and dig into the pocket of transport users. I feel it's time to halt the project until proper pre-studies have been completed.


And what is the source of this 'information'? The funding was FULLY explained at the time the announcement was made, perhaps your prejudices prevented you getting that far........

To WHICH 'proper pre-studies' do you refer? If you mean ANOTHER anti-Crossrail delaying tactic, forget it.

Crossrail have had a project office for over two years now (1, Thames Road, London E16 2EZ), so get used to it.

The use of emotive words like 'flawed' are those of the tabloid press, don't come down to their level!

As to possible cost escalation, yes it MAY happen. So many projects do, but blame the bean-counters, not the project itself!

If you are against this project, that IS your perogative. But PLEASE substantiate your claims, instead of running out hackneyed media clap-trap which, if you read it word for word, is utterly meaningless!
 

Metroland

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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...etails/Crossrail+to+halt+new+lines/article.do

It looks like the flawed east-west rail link, will now cost Londoners several other schemes and dig into the pocket of transport users. I feel it's time to halt the project until proper pre-studies have been completed.

You do? Well, cross rail has been looked at since at least the late 1980s. It is been subject to numerous reports, parliamentary bills, scrutiny, feasibility studies and examination from some of the best economists and transport professionals we have. In fact it's been going on so long that there can't be many more 'pre-studies' done on any similar scheme anywhere in the world.

And your qualifications and argument for this is, what exactly? What is your alternative plot to acute overcrowding and rising population and the needs of business to be linked into new areas?

Have a look at the names that disagree

http://www.campaignforcrossrail.com/supporters.php
 

Bighat

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I'd rather see Thameslink 2000 completed before Crossfail is started.

Why? It will not impact one way or the other on Thameslink, since the Crossrail funding is totally ring-fenced. They will compliment each other in numerous ways.
 

Nick W

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You do? Well, cross rail has been looked at since at least the late 1980s. It is been subject to numerous reports, parliamentary bills, scrutiny, feasibility studies and examination from some of the best economists and transport professionals we have. In fact it's been going on so long that there can't be many more 'pre-studies' done on any similar scheme anywhere in the world.
Could you link me to the studies please. All I see on the crossrail website is detail about the routes they've already chosen. And this doesn't even go as far as Reading, leaving doubt as to whether the trains are going to go to Reading. So crossrail will have trains from the east terminating at Paddington, and trains serving maindenhead - reading and beyond still terminating at Paddington. The shame! I take it the oxford trains that call at some relief line stations will have to call at them all or be stuck behind crossrail trains. What about freight?

And your qualifications and argument for this is, what exactly? What is your alternative plot to acute overcrowding and rising population and the needs of business to be linked into new areas?
Either:
a) A brand new and cheaper underground line which could indeed serve canary wharf in the east, and head on to the serve the thames gateway development. Acquiring the Shenfield metro would be possible in the same way that the metropolitan line trains can share tracks with chiltern trains but may not be practical given the freight which also uses the lines. Forest Gate Junction junction is a huge bottleneck for crossrail too.

Central Line style ATO could provide a greater capacity than crossrail, especially DLR moving block on a greater scale.

Is there any evidence that people on the shenfield branch are dissatisfied with the service? It's hardly a difficult change at straford for the central, and once some of these trains would have continued down metropoliton metals towards paddington.

In the West we have trouble using the relief lines and indeed earlier proposals of serving towards watford junction or amersham may have been better. However this is still serving existing areas.

b) I don't want to bore you with explaining what Superlink propose. But I personally would like to see a "thameslink 2000" style tunnel through London, serving Canary Wharf, London Liverpool street, Bank or Farringdon, KXSP (too important not to serve imp, and worth the awkward banana-shaping of the line), Bond Street/Oxford Circus and then Paddington. The line ought to run fast to Heathrow taking over Heathrow Express (paths) to provide a decent service from Canary Wharf, the city and the West End. As well as Thameslink 2000 customers with one change.

This basic system could have any number of branches added on bit by bit. A tunnel could take CTRL Domestic trains via Canary Wharf. Superlink proposes links all the way to Shenfield and Sawbridgeworth which is very sensible forward thinking for adding to the capacity of the network rail network. In the West there's the Airtrack proposal to link Heathrow to the Southern Network. Passengers from all over the region will be able to travel to Canary Wharf and Heathrow with a through train, in the same way they can reach their central London Terminal. We've once carried luggage through the H&C line from liverpool street to paddington and have decided that it's not worth the hassle. Heathrow currently suffers from lack of rail connections from outside London, and there is a congestion problem on the roads, so it would be stupid not to do something.

With plan b) and Thameslink 2000, the Railway could potentially allow a lot of cross London journeys on commuter routes to be taken without using the tube and with a single change. Intercity customers arriving at Liverpool Street, KXSP and Paddington can easily change onto the Network.


Which of those use the railway at least once a week, and go to London many times a year by train?

Futhermore I bet if my proposal b) and crossrail's proposal was sent round to everyone in the London and the South-East. ("Crossrail is an exciting and visionary new railway proposal for London and the South-East."), I think most would support proposal b).
 

Bonemaster

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Crossrail had much more potential in its original form to be an East West version of Thameslink along the same route through London going much further out both sides to the likes of Southend in the East and Aylesbury and Reading in the west, and would have offered the commuter towns outside of the London area a much enhanced service and better travel opportunities.

Sadly since transport in the London area has been hijacked by TFL, projects have focused much more on projects that only boost the Greater London area, and with all new buildings having much tighter car park restrictions as part of planning applications (of which I am being effected being forced out of my car onto a bus), the need for better connections into and out of cities from there commuter belts it increased, sometimes I think TFL is far too narrow minded on these issues. After all taking a huge number of outer suburban commuters off of Paddington, Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street stations, and taking them straight to or closer too there destinations would put less pressure on interchanges in peak times of the day.
 

Nick W

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Crossrail had much more potential in its original form to be an East West version of Thameslink along the same route through London going much further out both sides to the likes of Southend in the East and Aylesbury and Reading in the west, and would have offered the commuter towns outside of the London area a much enhanced service and better travel opportunities.

Sadly since transport in the London area has been hijacked by TFL, projects have focused much more on projects that only boost the Greater London area, and with all new buildings having much tighter car park restrictions as part of planning applications (of which I am being effected being forced out of my car onto a bus), the need for better connections into and out of cities from there commuter belts it increased, sometimes I think TFL is far too narrow minded on these issues. After all taking a huge number of outer suburban commuters off of Paddington, Liverpool Street and Fenchurch Street stations, and taking them straight to or closer too there destinations would put less pressure on interchanges in peak times of the day.

Totally agree with you. Shame the 27 years of pre-studies have been flawed, for want of a better word, by the narrow mindedness of TFL. If only TfL was extended to cover the full commuter belt of London.
 

Bonemaster

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Much more benefit would have been gained having Eastern Terminus's at Shoeburyness, Southminster, Southend Victoria, and Standsted Airport, and having Western terminus's at Aylesbury, and Reading in addition to Heathrow.

The current proposal may not be, in my (or many other peoples) opinion the best solution, it is however better than doing nothing.

Thameslink 2000 (or Thameslink Program) is in my opinion a much more worthwhile project that brings about many more benifits, however its links to the underground are somewhat limited, except at existing interchanges
 

Bighat

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Much more benefit would have been gained having Eastern Terminus's at Shoeburyness, Southminster, Southend Victoria, and Standsted Airport, and having Western terminus's at Aylesbury, and Reading in addition to Heathrow.

The current proposal may not be, in my (or many other peoples) opinion the best solution, it is however better than doing nothing.

Thameslink 2000 (or Thameslink Program) is in my opinion a much more worthwhile project that brings about many more benifits, however its links to the underground are somewhat limited, except at existing interchanges

The entire point of Crossrail is to provide a VERY freguent East-West service through London in standard guage vehicles. If all the points you list were served directly, it woyuldn't be FREQUENT from ANY of them.

Better a single, same or cross-platform, change than the current mayhem of changing at Paddington or Liverpool St from surface to sub surface or tube Underground lines, often with further changes from elsewhere on the system.
 

Bonemaster

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The entire point of Crossrail is to provide a VERY freguent East-West service through London in standard guage vehicles. If all the points you list were served directly, it woyuldn't be FREQUENT from ANY of them.

Better a single, same or cross-platform, change than the current mayhem of changing at Paddington or Liverpool St from surface to sub surface or tube Underground lines, often with further changes from elsewhere on the system.

The few places i mentioned to the east get a combined service of 12 services an hour, add in the Shenfield services and you have a very frequent service across the core of the system, which is what the idea is, the only difference is the destinations and calling patterns. It is about opening up journey opportunities, rather than a new service that will serve one city only, speeding up journeys to the city from the west and to the west end from the east.

It would also as you state enable easy changes for those in the community who struggle with the challenges that the LU system has inbuilt.
 

Nick W

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The entire point of Crossrail is to provide a VERY freguent East-West service through London in standard guage vehicles. If all the points you list were served directly, it woyuldn't be FREQUENT from ANY of them.

Better a single, same or cross-platform, change than the current mayhem of changing at Paddington or Liverpool St from surface to sub surface or tube Underground lines, often with further changes from elsewhere on the system.

Perhaps it would be better therefore to build a new underground line and try and make the connections as good as possible, as was almost done with the victoria line.
 

Bighat

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Perhaps it would be better therefore to build a new underground line and try and make the connections as good as possible, as was almost done with the victoria line.

The ONLY relevant words here are 'PERHAPS', 'TRY' and 'ALMOST', but not necessarily in that order!
 

Mojo

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Totally agree with you. Shame the 27 years of pre-studies have been flawed, for want of a better word, by the narrow mindedness of TFL. If only TfL was extended to cover the full commuter belt of London.

People commute to London from Bristol and Birmingham. Are you therefore suggesting TfL control should be given to separate city regions up to 200km from Charing Cross?
 

evil_hippo

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Why does London get all this money when tram schemes in Leeds and Liverpool have been halted, despite the positive effects they would have had on some major deprivation and on the economy of the north?
 

paul1609

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Because it is the economy of the South East that earns the money to pay the already huge subsidies to the regions?
 

Mojo

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Absoultely right Paul, and it's only fair. HOWEVER, London, the Home Counties and those along the south coast such as W and E Sussex, are actually subsidising the rest of the country. For every £2000 paid in taxes by those in the South East, only £1000 gets spent back in that region.

Also lets not forget that the main southern Cities of London & Bristol have the worst traffic congestion in the country, and as Paul rightly points out, the biggest contributor and most productive city for UK economy is London, followed by Bristol.

I'll leave Bristol out of this at the moment, as it's different from London, but the North is very powerful in terms of getting money out of Central Government for transport. There are some very skilled and well paid political lobbyists working for PTEs, the RDAs and councils in the North who can kick up a huge fuss to get anything they want, including manipulating figures to make it out to be economies in other parts of the country are less deserving. A recent example is the 158 units to Northern later this year. Other parts of the country are struggling to make the counterbalance, the lobbyists for the entire SW of England aren't due until 2009.

In the meantime, lots of campaigners, including myself have been doing some very hard work persuading local councils and MPs to make that counterbalance. See my other posting in the Portsmouth thread.

The matter is, if the South East grinds to a halt, it will bring the rest of the country down with it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/10/12/nbudget312.xml
 
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