Crossing the Thames using 'new' Blackfriars from December

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by cjohnson, 23 Nov 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. cjohnson

    cjohnson Member

    Messages:
    561
    Joined:
    3 Sep 2009
    Received an email with some Thameslink Programme blurb today, but was a bit confused by the following regarding the new Blackfriars entrance on the South Bank due to open Dec 5th:

    This raises a few questions:
    What does it mean by 'ticket holders'? Obviously anyone with an Oyster season that includes zone 1 will be let through barriers on the north and south sides fine, but what other ticket holders will be allowed through (any seasons to London Terminals/Thameslink)?

    Those Oyster PAYG conditions also seem odd. I can understand the "you must catch a train from Blackfriars with... London Underground" clause if one, say, entered the station from the South Bank side to access the tube on the north. But "you must catch a train from Blackfriars with ... National Rail"? Would the South bank barriers not let through a PAYG Oyster holder who had touched in on the north side?

    Finally, what do penalty fares have to do with all this? Presumably a PAYG Oyster user crossing the station bridge would just pay the zone 1 Oyster single fare (or possibly the max Oyster fare if they forgot to touch out)?
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. Lrd

    Lrd Established Member

    Messages:
    3,003
    Joined:
    26 Jul 2010
    In the article, it mentions not being able to use the lifts on platforms 2, 3 and 4, only on platform 1, from the South Bank entrance, maybe it means you will be able to cross the river to the current entrance and use the lifts there?

    If you were to enter a station using Oyster PAYG then touch out at the same station then you could get charged a maximum fare. Do you have to touch out to get access to any lifts?
     
  4. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,923
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    Easy answer first - I think they are mixing up penalty fares and Oyster maximum cash fares. Passengers often make that error but a TOC shouldn't...

    'Ticket holders' - might just mean people with a valid paper travelcard or season. Normal mag stripe paper tickets often throw up an error code if you enter and then try and leave the same station a short time later...

    The issue as far as I can see is that on the north side there are separate gatelines for rail and underground. So someone entering on the south bank and heading for the underground would be touching in, then out a few minutes later, then in again. However the two north side gatelines will almost certainly be a normal OSI for making LU/FCC connections.

    What that does when it comes to charging I just don't know. Maybe MikeWh the Oyster expert can translate what they are getting at...

    It might mean nothing more than if you happen to use your Oyster to cross the river only you'll be hit with some sort of fare - but isn't this what would happen if you entered ANY station, hung around for 5 or 10 minutes then exited? Isn't it what would happen for example if you travelled from Bank to Monument by walking through the station?
     
    Last edited: 23 Nov 2011
  5. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    4,460
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Location:
    North of the rivers
    Blimey, didn't realise the work at Blackfriars was so far along already. Must catch up!

    Any Season valid at Blackfriars will of course be valid; in theory any non-Season also although you'd probably be creating trouble for yourself since the ticket would be swallowed/marked as used/rejected by the barriers.

    They would presumably let you through, but register an incomplete journey (or two?). I don't know offhand what exactly happens in these circumstances - IIRC you used to be able to exit a station within a certain time of entry and not be charged for a journey, but this would have to be the same gateline. I'm sure MikeWh will be able to clarify. (edit: see here, from Mike's site. Makes no sense whatsoever...).

    The penalty fare charged would be for the incomplete journey(s) as above, I would think. The quoted text used "penalty fare" rather than "Penalty Fare" so I don't think it's referring to the formalised Penalty Fares Scheme. I can't see that a Penalty Fare would be applicable as long as you had touched in.
     
    Last edited: 23 Nov 2011
  6. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,923
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    Not according to the drawings. All three lifts at the south end are on the paid side of the relevant gatelines as far as I can see. All they seem to be warning people about is that the south bank entrance only provides a lift to the southbound platform initially.

    Having said that the north end lifts are on the non paid side of the barriers, which are at platform level - so using platform 1 as an entrance route to platform 2 via the north side lifts could be another case of touching in, out and back in...
     
    Last edited: 23 Nov 2011
  7. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    16,414
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2005
    Location:
    0035
    At present if you touch in and then touch out at the same station the following happens:

    0 Min - 2 Min = One maximum cash fare
    2 Min - 30 Min = Cheapest single Oyster fare from that station
    30 Min and above = Two maximum cash fares

    I cannot imagine why this would change with Blackfriars.
     
  8. causton

    causton Established Member

    Messages:
    5,086
    Joined:
    4 Aug 2010
    Location:
    Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
    I thought the 2-30 mins was free - I was told this some time ago and given the example that someone goes down to the platform, and then all the trains to their destination are cancelled, so they go to catch a bus... and it wouldn't penalise them for that! *shrug*
     
  9. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    16,414
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2005
    Location:
    0035
    This applies for the 0 - 2 Min. If you re-enter the same or any other station (not Tram or Bus) within 45 Min then the fare is cancelled and a new 'journey' is opened.

    Note this only applies for gated stations, not validators.
     
  10. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,594
    Joined:
    19 Jun 2010
    A ticket holder is someone who has a ticket to travel on the Thameslink network prior to entering the ticketing area (ie past the barriers). This mean either a paper ticket valid at Blackfriars or a travel card (paper or oyster). A ticket that is valid via the Core on the return leg is also valid as a break in the jounery.

    PAYGO Oyster you don't not have a ticket but you have a system agreed where you are buying a ticket as you go. This requires touching in and out and then the system automatically charges you for this jounery. If you did not touch in and out at both ends you are automatically charged a maxmium cash fare.

    Walking through the station you need to go via two sets of barriers on PAYGO Oyster so the system is set up to see this as a jounery and charges you as such. If you do use the Tube then you pass through a 3rd set of barriers to access the Tube.
     
  11. t0ffeeman

    t0ffeeman Member

    Messages:
    265
    Joined:
    11 Jul 2008
    Got caught out at Woodside Park a few years back. The London platform has gates, the Barnet platform only has readers.
    Not knowing the set up I touched in the London side on a journey to Totteridge(Barnet platform). Looked around for the footbridge to the Barnet platform and it was back in the ticket office. So touched out out and crossed the footbridge. Both readers on the Barnet platform were Out of Use! Had enough of this by now.
    Was charged £1 for standing on the London platform and £4 for the incomplete journey after touching out at Totteridge.
     
  12. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    5,305
    Joined:
    15 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Crayford
    No you don't!

    I'll look into this further later on, but for now be assured that you do not get charged for walking through Southwark from the road to Waterloo East or vice-versa.
     
  13. causton

    causton Established Member

    Messages:
    5,086
    Joined:
    4 Aug 2010
    Location:
    Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
    If you DID get charged, couldn't you get physically stuck between Southwark and Waterloo East?
    Enter Southwark - minimum fare
    Exit Southwark - min fare gets taken
    Try to enter WAE - no credit - can't get in
    Try to enter Southwark again - no credit - can't get in

    Now, WAE is NOT a Compulsory Ticket Area, but the gateline staff won't let you through without a ticket. Therefore you are stuck ;)

    (In fact, you could do this by only having enough credit to make a 1-stop journey ending at Southwark and do it, then exit through WAE. :P )
     
  14. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,923
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    No you aren't. You are charged a 'maximum cash fare'.
     
  15. snail

    snail Established Member

    Messages:
    1,765
    Joined:
    16 Jun 2011
    Location:
    t'North
    How is that not a penalty (small 'p')?
     
  16. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,212
    Joined:
    30 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Milton Keynes
    It is penalising the customer, but to avoid confusion, it is not a Penalty Fare, which on the Underground I believe is the princely sum of £50 these days.
     
  17. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,923
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    Because an LU Penalty Fare is £50, and it is just as easy to use the correct term for a 'maximum cash fare' when it is being described, to avoid unneccesarily confusing people.
     
  18. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,594
    Joined:
    19 Jun 2010
    At some point you were charged as there was a big thing about it charging people to do just that if you didn't have a travelcard.


    I did mean a penalty fare rather than the penalty fare (ie more than what is should be). Note it's the NR Oyster fare which last time I looked was £5.
     
  19. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    5,305
    Joined:
    15 Jun 2010
    Location:
    Crayford
    Where do you get £5 from? The entry charge which is deducted on touch-in is one of three things:
    1. The zone 1-6 through NR+TfL fare for PAYG only (currently £6.50 peak, £4.40 off-peak)
    2. The zone 1-4 through NR+TfL fare when you are mixing PAYG and a Travelcard but are outside the zones of the travelcard
    3. £0.00 when you are within the zones on your travelcard

    If you enter, then exit the same station between 2 and 30 minutes later, then the minimum Oyster fare is charged which at Blackfriars will be £2.00 peak and £1.50 off-peak at the moment.
     
  20. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,923
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    Reading all the replies, I suspect FCC have simply confused the issue, because what happens at Blackfriars if you cross the bridge without travelling is probably exactly the same as you'd end up with if you did the same moves anywhere else.

    For example, touch in at Kings Cross platforms 0-8, walk up through the station and exit through the suburban gateline, then enter the tube system gateline at the northern ticket hall. NR in > NR out > LU in.

    Or how about the other way round, enter through the Kings Cross tube ticket hall barrier line, then go via the paid side interchange passageway and immediately exit through the western ticket hall barriers; then walk up and enter St Pancras LL (FCC). LU in > LU out > NR in.

    Therefore my hypothesis is that FCC have just issued a statement that does nothing except cause confusion, whereas the station isn't really set up any differently to other stations with multiple and separate NR and LU gatelines...
     
  21. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    7,398
    Joined:
    21 Dec 2007
    Location:
    Newcastle (unless I'm out)
    You'll all know of that well-travelled chap who appears on Railway Station platforms in local uniform all over the country and telling passengers to 'go on, you'll be okay' when they don't have a valid ticket.
    Well, I met him the other day at Blackfriars. The barriers were open, I didn't have a ticket, and I wasn't travelling. What I did want to do is have a look at the works to see how soon the platform might be available as a new Thames foot-bridge. So I had a chat with him.
    I don't know what he thought I'd asked, but he said 'go on and take whatever pictures you want'. (Funny that, as I didn't mention pictures and haven't carried a camera for well over 10 years!)

    The point is, I was authorised to walk over the bridge without a ticket. If our friend is there the next time and gives the same authorisation, then we could find ourselves trying to cross the Thames at Blackfriars with approval at one end and be confronted by barriers and staff at the other end.
    Agreed.
     
  22. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    38,837
    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    This is very possible, and indeed has happened and no doubt will again at Waterloo East when a certain person is there. The signs at the main entrance direct you to Waterloo ticket office, who may not always react politely, but tell you to contact SET using the help point. The help point informs us that the station is not a compulsory ticket area so we are allowed on the platforms. But the person at the other end claimed the help point is lying, told us we were lying when we said there were no CTA signs, and told us that everyone who says that Southwark can be used as an exit is lying as it is "just an interchange". He wouldn't let us through and said that if a station is a CTA they do not have to allow people to access (or exit!) the platforms. When told that, if it was a CTA they'd need to comply with the appropriate legislation which can be found on the DfT website, and therefore sell us a platform ticket, he said "we're not the DfT". Not quite sure what to say to him next time I see him, but I'm sure I'll think of something ;)
     
  23. ajax103

    ajax103 Established Member

    Messages:
    4,277
    Joined:
    28 Apr 2009
    Well this has confused me so I feel sorry for the passengers using the station.
     
  24. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,726
    Joined:
    13 May 2008
    There's no need to use the station as a footbridge though is there?
     
  25. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    7,398
    Joined:
    21 Dec 2007
    Location:
    Newcastle (unless I'm out)
    That's a good point; there are very accessible alternatives and you would have to be making a specific NE to SW journey to justify using the station in preference (actually, some of the pavement walkways at the north side are particularly awful from the west as well).
    But in bad weather, then wouldn't you much prefer to walk over the coverd platform than to be exposed to whatever foul gale was blowing down Thames valley? I would.
     
  26. causton

    causton Established Member

    Messages:
    5,086
    Joined:
    4 Aug 2010
    Location:
    Somewhere between WY372 and MV7
    That journey is impossible doing the things you describe, unless you caught a train out of KGX and back in to the suburban platforms :D

    The suburban platforms are gated.
    Platforms 0-4 or 5 or so are gated, but the middle 2 or 3 platforms are ungated as you walk up number 8 to get through to the entrance to the suburban platforms.

    Therefore walking from the departure boards at Kings Cross and exiting towards the northern ticket hall you would pass no gatelines ;)
     
  27. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

    Messages:
    4,460
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2009
    Location:
    North of the rivers
    No- that stretch of the river is not exactly short of crossings! It could catch people out in the circumstances described by DaveNewcastle though, although the presence of barriers should be a clear enough message that it's not meant as a crossing.

     
  28. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    17,923
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    I'm a couple of months ahead of the situation on the ground then - but it will work like that relatively soon... :D
     
  29. barrykas

    barrykas Established Member

    Messages:
    1,579
    Joined:
    19 Sep 2006
    If memory serves, doesn't a similar situation apply at Canary Wharf Underground Station, with notices in the Ticket Hall along the lines of "Oyster PAYG users will be charged £1.40 if they enter via one gateline and exit via the other without travelling"?

    Will have to check next time I pass through...

    Cheers,

    Barry
     
  30. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    16,414
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2005
    Location:
    0035
    This will be the 2 - 30 Min example in my post above. The zone 2-3 Standard rate is £1.40.
     
  31. DarkestDreams

    DarkestDreams Member

    Messages:
    58
    Joined:
    30 Jun 2011
    Location:
    London
    So, basically you can't use the station as a river crossing unless you have a travelcard. Is that the gist?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page