Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

[kevin_roche]

When the ETCS /EVC based system issues get sorted

Can you explain what EVC is please?

 

[samuelmorris]

Can you explain what EVC is please?

Not one I've heard before either but I assume it refers to the below:

• Euro Vital Computer (EVC)

The EVC is the core of the ETCS onboard device. It is part of the Automatic Train Protection logic and is the unit with which all the other train functions interact, such as the odometer or the GSM-R data reception.

 

[hwl]

Not one I've heard before either but I assume it refers to the below:

It does.
The way all the on train systems interact is changing (an interesting parallel is traditional car manufacturers swapping to battery power see VW's software woes) hence huge amount so change and stuff that has been understood and has working solutions existing stock for ages has needed to be rewritten.

It should be far better when it gets sorted and certain UK projects are in the vanguard of this change.

 

[jellybaby]

TfL and Crossrail construction sites to come to Safe Stop

'The Government and the Mayor have given clear instructions to stay safe and to stop travelling in all cases other than critical workers making absolutely essential journeys.

'In line with this, TfL and Crossrail will be bringing all project sites to a temporary Safe Stop unless they need to continue for operational safety reasons. This means that work on all such projects will be temporarily suspended as soon as it is safe to do so. Essential maintenance of the transport network will of course continue.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p.../tfl-and-crossrail-construction-sites-to-stop

 

[Belperpete]

TfL and Crossrail construction sites to come to Safe Stop

Does that mean that the integration testing (which I think is the critical path to opening) has stopped? Or is it just the physical construction sites?

 

[Chris M]

Does that mean that the integration testing (which I think is the critical path to opening) has stopped? Or is it just the physical construction sites?

My understanding is that everything that requires human beings to be on site will stopped as soon as it safely can be. For many things (e.g. most station fit-out activity) that means it has already stopped, most other things will be stopping over then next few days as they get to a safe stopping point from which they can be safely resumed. Only things which cannot be stopped, e.g. essential daily maintenance, are continuing. I don't know enough about what integration testing entails to be sure, but I suspect that it will fall into one of the first two categories.
Software development and/or document review might be able to continue with staff working at home, but any physical testing will likely have to be postponed.

 

[D365]

Software development and/or document review might be able to continue with staff working at home, but any physical testing will likely have to be postponed.

One would imagine that all office-based staff have been moved to home working since last week. The railway industry definitely has the capability for that.

 

[Belperpete]

My understanding is that everything that requires human beings to be on site will stopped as soon as it safely can be.

I would have thought that running of test trains, for example, could be achieved within social distancing requirements. And it would be far easier to arrange while physical construction has stopped, could even have pulled some time back. But it might just be simpler to stop everything. They are not carrying out essential work, after all, which is the most important thing now.

 

[matt_world2004]

I would have thought that running of test trains, for example, could be achieved within social distancing requirements. And it would be far easier to arrange while physical construction has stopped, could even have pulled some time back. But it might just be simpler to stop everything. They are not carrying out essential work, after all, which is the most important thing now.

It usually requires two people in the cab a driver and an engineer

 

[jellybaby]

I would have thought that running of test trains, for example, could be achieved within social distancing requirements.

Still requires people to travel to work, perhaps on other public transport services.

 

[PeterC]

I would have thought that running of test trains, for example, could be achieved within social distancing requirements. And it would be far easier to arrange while physical construction has stopped, could even have pulled some time back. But it might just be simpler to stop everything. They are not carrying out essential work, after all, which is the most important thing now.

Those drivers are probably required to keep some sort of commuter service running for essential workers.

 

[Belperpete]

Those drivers are probably required to keep some sort of commuter service running for essential workers.

Agreed, better they do that. Nobody is going to die if CrossRail gets put further back, whereas people may die if doctors and nurses are stuck on a platform waiting for a train rather than treating the sick.

 

[matt_world2004]

TfL Rail are running a full service out west I speculate that the surplus of drivers have given a redundancy that is allow them to mitigate the absence

 

[hwl]

TfL Rail are running a full service out west I speculate that the surplus of drivers have given a redundancy that is allow them to mitigate the absence

I'd agree, the spare drivers being useful.

 

[rd749249]

Testing has stopped UFN. Driver and pilotman in close proximity (<2m) is a problem to be resolved, amongst other things. Spare/off-duty drivers are covering sickness/open turns on the East and West during this period. ASLEF have issued circulars where agreements have been made with TOC's covering the pandemic and its effect on drivers. ASLEF have been very good in this regard.

 

[Horizon22]

A number of 5Zxx 345 services have been running today between T5 and Paddington: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F23638/2020-04-13/detailed

 

[JN114]

A number of 5Zxx 345 services have been running today between T5 and Paddington: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/F23638/2020-04-13/detailed

Driver ETCS familiarisation over Heathrow branch.

 

[Class 170101]

From Rail News today Crossrail likely to be delayed again - when will it open now I wonder

Crossrail costs rise again, and new delays are likely | Railnews | Today's news for Tomorrow's railway

www.railnews.co.uk

THE price of Crossrail has risen by another £140 million, and rail minister Chris Heaton-Harris described the further increase as ‘very disappointing’. It also seems likely that completion of the project will be delayed yet again.

The extra funding is needed to complete the surface sections in east and west London, which are run by Network Rail, and there is no connection with the coronavirus pandemic, because it has emerged that the additional costs were calculated before lockdown.

 

[matt_world2004]

From Rail News today Crossrail likely to be delayed again - when will it open now I wonder

Crossrail costs rise again, and new delays are likely | Railnews | Today's news for Tomorrow's railway

www.railnews.co.uk

The east and west stations do not need to be complete for it to be open. TfL rail is already running to these stations

 

[PG]

The east and west stations do not need to be complete for it to be open. TfL rail is already running to these stations

Yes I'm slightly puzzled. The BBC had a couple of paragraphs saying pretty much the same as above. Network Rail seem to have been late with some station improvements connected to Crossrail but it now seems that they have more to do which hasn't yet been funded?

 

[Horizon22]

Yes I'm slightly puzzled. The BBC had a couple of paragraphs saying pretty much the same as above. Network Rail seem to have been late with some station improvements connected to Crossrail but it now seems that they have more to do which hasn't yet been funded?

I can't see how that can be the case. There's lots of superficial elements not complete - Ealing Broadway still looks a mess for instance - but operationally its all running fine besides ETCS issues to Heathrow for 345s (which are mostly resolved anyway AIUI but they're not running in service)

 

[Mintona]

Are 345s not running to Heathrow in service yet? I passed one in the Paddington throat a couple of weeks ago about 17.50 with Heathrow Terminal 4 on the displays. I figured it must be in service, seemed an odd time to do testing. Of course the destination display may have been wrong.

 

[JonathanH]

Are 345s not running to Heathrow in service yet? I passed one in the Paddington throat a couple of weeks ago about 17.50 with Heathrow Terminal 4 on the displays. I figured it must be in service, seemed an odd time to do testing. Of course the destination display may have been wrong.

No, 345s aren't running to Heathrow - still 360s. 345s are only doing Hayes shuttles (and Reading). Testing restarted last week.

Terminal 4 Station isn't open for passengers in any case. Heathrow Express and TfL Rail are both running half hourly to Terminal 5.

On the stations point I expect the two drivers of a need to finish the stations are accessibility and revenue protection. Opening a station that isn't accessible to all would be a spectacular public relations disaster. They will want a closed system (ie ticket gates at all stations) for revenue purposes.

 

[Snow1964]

No, 345s aren't running to Heathrow - still 360s. 345s are only doing Hayes shuttles (and Reading). Testing restarted last week.

Terminal 4 Station isn't open for passengers in any case. Heathrow Express and TfL Rail are both running half hourly to Terminal 5.

On the stations point I expect the two drivers of a need to finish the stations are accessibility and revenue protection. Opening a station that isn't accessible to all would be a spectacular public relations disaster. They will want a closed system (ie ticket gates at all stations) for revenue purposes.

The last point gates at all stations is more a PR stunt, doesn’t really stop unchecked passengers from places like Emerson Park, Greenford branch, Marlow branch, Henley branch etc. There are also plenty of Underground stations without (or only part time) gates which could also travel from before joining an Elizabeth Line train.

Thinking about it, probably loads of potential journeys involving Elizabeth line where you won’t encounter a closed gate both ends.

 

[si404]

Opening a station that isn't accessible to all would be a spectacular public relations disaster.

Opening a station would be. Starting to run through services to a pre-existing station (that you already serve) that isn't accessible yet is much less spectacular of a disaster.

It would be more spectacular a PR disaster to delay opening the core because Acton Main Line, etc doesn't yet have its step-free access, than to open without having finished accessibility upgrades at relatively minor pre-existing stations.

They will want a closed system (ie ticket gates at all stations) for revenue purposes.

To some extent true, but there's ungated entrances/exits on the Underground (and more so the Overground) and the DLR is mostly ungated. Having the closed system (transfers from open parts of the system ignored) isn't essential.

Delaying the opening of the core for a period because of some stations not being gated is even worse PR than delaying the opening of the core for a period because of some stations not being accessible.

 

[hwl]

Yes I'm slightly puzzled. The BBC had a couple of paragraphs saying pretty much the same as above. Network Rail seem to have been late with some station improvements connected to Crossrail but it now seems that they have more to do which hasn't yet been funded?

The surface stations were adequately funded originally and also a 2011 value engineering issue. The result was that when NR went out to tender that not even Carillion bidding lower than every one else could match the Crossrail funding amounts fro the works. (10% construction inflation in London in the early part of the decade hence 5 years of that really blew estimates)

This has been brewing 4-5years but CR have kicked the can down the road and stuck their head in the sand, this is all of that finally getting addressed. Admitting the costings were unrealistic 5 years would have been the simple solution.

Some of the delay is NR having to go back and continually pare back schemes to reduce costs. Councils then get upset that they get less nice new station which that time to address...

One council even thought they would be getting section 106 funding from NR doing station works when they would actually be funnelling that funding from other local schemes to NR...

 

[Bald Rick]

One council even thought they would be getting section 106 funding from NR doing station works when they would actually be funnelling that funding from other local schemes to NR...

That’s not at all unusual - councils frequently expect section 106 payments from a station development / new station, even occasionally when they are paying for the development themselves!

 

[Taunton]

This has been brewing 4-5years but CR have kicked the can down the road and stuck their head in the sand, this is all of that finally getting addressed. Admitting the costings were unrealistic 5 years would have been the simple solution.

Some of the delay is NR having to go back and continually pare back schemes to reduce costs. Councils then get upset that they get less nice new station which that time to address...

Let us bear in mind that Crossrail has consistently had the highest paid top level engineering executives in the country, it's all been publicly announced as such, and to have this Intern level of incompetence YET AGAIN is just ludicrous, let alone bandying blame back and forth between Crossrail, Network Rail, TfL, DfT, and whoever else, like children in the primary school playground.

And however long has Network Rail had to do these quite straightforward building works. More than 10 years, and some of them are not even put out to tender yet.

That’s not at all unusual - councils frequently expect section 106 payments from a station development / new station, even occasionally when they are paying for the development themselves.

Section 106 has unfortunately developed from good intentions to some form of councillors' arm-twisting for their pet schemes for political co-runners. More than one I have been associated with I really queried with a lawyer whether there could be a prosecution for Demanding Money with Menaces. Sometimes the officers seem quite embarrassed by what the councillors have told them to extract.

 

[matt_world2004]

Are 345s not running to Heathrow in service yet? I passed one in the Paddington throat a couple of weeks ago about 17.50 with Heathrow Terminal 4 on the displays. I figured it must be in service, seemed an odd time to do testing. Of course the destination display may have been wrong.

Basically what was happening with these trains is they were picking up timetable data based on their headcode. So would show terminal 4 as that's where they were timetabled to be. They were actually getting turned at Hayes. Even though Heathrow Terminal 4 was shown as the destination

 

[357]

Can anyone confirm if all the east side platform extensions are complete and commissioned ? Many were not commissioned last time I used the line (both on the Electric lines and the mainlines).

This would be a show stopper for full services.