Crossrail opening delayed (opening date not yet known)

[matt_world2004]

That's another sign that it's nowhere near finished. How will Oyster work, particularly on the Windsor, Marlow and Henley branches and for anyone changing trains at Reading for destinations further west?

There are oyster readers already installed at the gateline stations, with the oyster function disabled in software

There will be unlikely to be oyster on the branches. Although there have been oyster compatible readers installed as far afield as Bristol Temple Meads.

It seems between Iver and Reading will all be in one zone internally. It may be a case that season tickets from these destinations will be on paper initially with oyster being valid for pay as you go only.

 

[wildcard]

That's another sign that it's nowhere near finished. How will Oyster work, particularly on the Windsor, Marlow and Henley branches and for anyone changing trains at Reading for destinations further west?

My understanding is that the branches are not in the Oyster plan and never have been - the plan is Oyster to Reading on the main line & on Crossrail/Elizabeth line only .

 

[MarlowDonkey]

My understanding is that the branches are not in the Oyster plan and never have been - the plan is Oyster to Reading on the main line & on Crossrail/Elizabeth line only .

Presumably though, there would need to be a mechanism for touching in or out without leaving the stations at Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford or Reading.

 

[matt_world2004]

Presumably though, there would need to be a mechanism for touching in or out without leaving the stations at Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford or Reading.

Side validiators like what exists at most interchange points between National rail and LU. Also there are lines that go through London like the SWR Hampton Court line, where only one or two stations are outside the Oyster zone

 

[mmh]

Presumably though, there would need to be a mechanism for touching in or out without leaving the stations at Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford or Reading.

Not really, there aren't at other stations at the boundary of the oyster area.

Side validiators like what exists at most interchange points between National rail and LU. Also there are lines that go through London like the SWR Hampton Court line, where only one or two stations are outside the Oyster zone

At most (all?) stations if you want to switch between pay as you go and a paper ticket you'll need to "exit" at a reader at an entrance to the station and re-enter using the paper ticket. (The Hampton Court branch is entirely within Oyster zone 6; there aren't any lines which exit the Oyster area to re-enter it later)

 

[Kite159]

Northern have had their diesel trains moved on; despite them still needing them, because in turn the electric work has overrun and is not ready; so their services are now screwed with no end in sight.

Slightly off-topic, but I believe no diesels have gone from the Northern franchise yet, the pacers which were due off lease earlier in the year have been extended. In fact Northern have gained a lot more DMUs (150s & 153s from GWR, 170s from Scotrail)

 

[matt_world2004]

Not really, there aren't at other stations at the boundary of the oyster area.



At most (all?) stations if you want to switch between pay as you go and a paper ticket you'll need to "exit" at a reader at an entrance to the station and re-enter using the paper ticket. (The Hampton Court branch is entirely within Oyster zone 6; there aren't any lines which exit the Oyster area to re-enter it later)

At Ealing Broadway for example there are validiators behind the gatelines for interchange between National rail and London underground. Similarly with Finsbury Park.

 

[JonathanH]

At Ealing Broadway for example there are validiators behind the gatelines for interchange between National rail and London underground. Similarly with Finsbury Park.

There is a legacy of validators within stations from the time before Oyster was valid on National Rail services. Finsbury Park and Ealing Broadway were both places where a change could be made between National Rail and London Underground.

You won't find Oyster validators on the platform at East Croydon for example or Gatwick Airport.

 

[wildcard]

Presumably though, there would need to be a mechanism for touching in or out without leaving the stations at Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford or Reading.

Yes - quite right . Similar to the situation at Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford Junction . There are Oyster readers inside the gateline . What intrigues me is GWR's situation. What's to stop passengers using Oyster on GWR rather than buying a paper ticket ( other than on train inspections ). It would be possible to distinguish Paddington travellers so a High level touch in /out = GWR but what about Ealing Broadway for example. Will TfL claim all the Oyster revenue to Reading on the basis GWR journeys are not Oyster ?

 

[Mike395]

Oyster will be interavailable on both GWR and TfL Rail/Crossrail as I understand it - GWR RPIs/guards will be issued with portable Oyster readers.

 

[LeeLivery]

Yes - quite right . Similar to the situation at Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford Junction . There are Oyster readers inside the gateline . What intrigues me is GWR's situation. What's to stop passengers using Oyster on GWR rather than buying a paper ticket ( other than on train inspections ). It would be possible to distinguish Paddington travellers so a High level touch in = GWR but what about Ealing Broadway for example. Will TfL claim all the Oyster revenue to Reading on the basis GWR journeys are not Oyster ?

This is why there should be one nationwide smartcard. It'll probably work like paper tickets or how it does on the GEML and Sydenham Corridor. They have no real idea if I'm using Southern or LO between New Cross Gate and Sydenham for example.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Won't passengers expect to have a choice as to whether to buy a travelcard or use Oyster either on its own or in conjunction with a paper ticket for the part of the journey outside Oyster? It's a choice that exists at the moment although it's only practical to switch to and from Oyster at Ealing and Paddington.

 

[mrmartin]

Excellent article (as always) by London Reconnections on the crisis: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/crossrail-breaking-down-the-crisis/

 

[Mojo]

Not really, there aren't at other stations at the boundary of the oyster area.

At most (all?) stations if you want to switch between pay as you go and a paper ticket you'll need to "exit" at a reader at an entrance to the station and re-enter using the paper ticket. (The Hampton Court branch is entirely within Oyster zone 6; there aren't any lines which exit the Oyster area to re-enter it later)

We must be in a different city! Standalone validators are commonplace inside of gatelines at most stations where you could conceivably change from using a paper ticket to Oyster/CPC. They are not at every location, yes, but it isn’t even most stations, let alone all!

 

[SWT_USER]

Is there any prospect of Oyster being introduced on the Reading to Waterloo line (well, Feltham to Reading), when it launches for Crossrail?

 

[JonathanH]

Is there any prospect of Oyster being introduced on the Reading to Waterloo line (well, Feltham to Reading), when it launches for Crossrail?

No, there is no prospect of this. Similarly, there is no prospect of it being valid at any station between Reading and Redhill.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is there any prospect of Oyster being introduced on the Reading to Waterloo line (well, Feltham to Reading), when it launches for Crossrail?

A reasonable question that has been asked (without ever getting an answer) quite a few times already.

 

[mrmartin]

This image really does show how badly things have gone wrong - this is from July 2018, so not that long ago. They had a 85% confidence that Scenario 3 would happen - which would see full dynamic testing happening in December, which looks ridiculously ambitious now.

 

[plcd1]

No, there is no prospect of this. Similarly, there is no prospect of it being valid at any station between Reading and Redhill.

I think it is a tiny bit early to dismiss this out of hand. I only say this because the Andrew Jones, DfT Minister is on the record as saying the DfT will hold a consultation in early 2019 as to where Oyster may be extended in the wider South East area. The consultation will also cover smart travel on rail in other regions using ITSO. This was all quoted in a recent Railway Gazette article.

I think there has been a tiny bit of a thaw in DfT's attitude towards Oyster expansion. While I'd agree that Reading to Redhill might be a tiny bit of a stretch I'm not quite so negative about the prospects for Waterloo to Reading via Bracknell. Clearly it will always boil down to cost vs financial upside for the TOC but DfT seem to be keener on getting "smart" data about travel patterns so there must be some routes in the South East where that greater level of info will be highly beneficial in terms of service planning. I was as surprised as anyone about the proposed extensions to Hertford North, WG City, Luton Airport and Epsom suddenly getting the go ahead after 5? years wait.

 

[matt_world2004]

I think it is a tiny bit early to dismiss this out of hand. I only say this because the Andrew Jones, DfT Minister is on the record as saying the DfT will hold a consultation in early 2019 as to where Oyster may be extended in the wider South East area. The consultation will also cover smart travel on rail in other regions using ITSO. This was all quoted in a recent Railway Gazette article.

I think there has been a tiny bit of a thaw in DfT's attitude towards Oyster expansion. While I'd agree that Reading to Redhill might be a tiny bit of a stretch I'm not quite so negative about the prospects for Waterloo to Reading via Bracknell. Clearly it will always boil down to cost vs financial upside for the TOC but DfT seem to be keener on getting "smart" data about travel patterns so there must be some routes in the South East where that greater level of info will be highly beneficial in terms of service planning. I was as surprised as anyone about the proposed extensions to Hertford North, WG City, Luton Airport and Epsom suddenly getting the go ahead after 5? years wait.

There is no more capacity to add more zones onto legacy oyster cards. This is why season's are not going to come to stations West of West Drayton on oyster initially

 

[Busaholic]

Excellent article (as always) by London Reconnections on the crisis: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/crossrail-breaking-down-the-crisis/

That's pretty comprehensive, no detail omitted, technical, administrative or political. It doesn't mince its words about the Mayor's response to questioning from a London Assembly member, describing some of it as blatantly untruthful. It would be hard to conclude otherwise from the evidence produced here. As the article makes clear, there's little to blame Sadiq Khan for, personally, before July 2018 on this project, certainly no sins of commission, and not too many sins of omission, so his responses seemed unnecessarily defensive. LR seems to attribute this to his previous Westminster grounding.

 

[JonathanH]

I think there has been a tiny bit of a thaw in DfT's attitude towards Oyster expansion.

Presumably there are two drivers - MPs whose constituents are lobbying about extension of Oyster and the DfT thinking it can generate more income from an Oyster style fare structure than the existing paper fares.

In London there was the benefit that the 2010 agreement effectively ripped up the paper fare structure. Doing that outside London creates winners and losers. While both structures exist no one can lose - if either the consultation on train fares which closed earlier this year or the 2019 one on Oyster extension signal a move to an Oyster-style fare structure and removal of what we have there is less of an issue for the DfT to object to.

I suspect the Crossrail fares will have to have some similarity to what happened at Redhill route stations - ie fudges in the set up to ensure that there isn't a revenue loss.

Standardising on an Oyster structure out into 'the sticks' will be bad news for some passengers.

 

[fgwrich]

Excellent article (as always) by London Reconnections on the crisis: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/crossrail-breaking-down-the-crisis/

Funny enough I have just been reading this article as well, thank to the share from the 'Ian Vists' page. Something that I've also noticed is that it doesn't paint a good picture of the software issues with the Bombardier 345s - Possibly more so if Siemens (supplier of the signalling) where the ones to raise their concerns first.

All of this paints a picture which suggests that significant issues remain to be solved with the Bombardier rolling stock and how it interfaces with signalling, both at track and train level. It is perfectly understandable and reasonable for TfL to blame some of this on Crossrail Ltd. And to a certain extent, whether the Bombardier rolling stock would have been ready to run in service in December had Crossrail Ltd. delivered (thus allowing TfL the testing time required) is entirely academic as they were not given the opportunity to prove that either way.

What isn’t academic, however, is that there have been – and still are – fundamental issues to solve with the trains before they can enter service. And, if Wild’s assertion that testing can start in January is true, then at that point any such issues which remain will be as large a problem for the delivery of the project as anything Crossrail Ltd. have done so far.

 

[plcd1]

There is no more capacity to add more zones onto legacy oyster cards. This is why season's are not going to come to stations West of West Drayton on oyster initially

I am aware of the zonal constraint. I had assumed, probably wrongly, that TfL would have a "Crossrail west" tariff added within the system thus allowing them to have a fare structure (and capping) using "zones" 7 to 10 plus the reserved "zone" 15 to cover PAYG on that route. I am assuming here that TfL have some flexibility around the number of tariffs they can add to the system even if the "zones" are a constraint. If tariffs are a flexible part of the system then other routes can be added to the charging structure or they simply apply an existing tariff where the fares on a route align with those already used. I recognise this may impose constraints the TOCs and DfT don't like. Happy to be corrected if I am spouting nonsense - I've not seen even an outline spec of what TfL have done to Oyster to cope with Crossrail running to Reading.

 

[matacaster]

As with many large projects that fail, the guys at the top plead that the people below them at each level failed to inform them of problems and lack of progress which would impact the end date and costs. An example of this was the M62 central barriers where the Project Manger was on local radio saying everything was going well yet TENS OF THOUSANDS of regular users were fully aware that there was often NOBODY working at all. The following day after the radio program, the M62 was alive with those contractors and workers who had presumably been skiving. The project manager didn't know because he stayed in his comfy bunker and didnt go and meet people on the ground and do a bit of probing. This seems to be one of the bigger failings of Crossrail. Noone wants to be the bearer of bad news, particularly if they or their bosses bonus depends on meeting targets!!

 

[camflyer]

As with many large projects that fail, the guys at the top plead that the people below them at each level failed to inform them of problems and lack of progress which would impact the end date and costs. An example of this was the M62 central barriers where the Project Manger was on local radio saying everything was going well yet TENS OF THOUSANDS of regular users were fully aware that there was often NOBODY working at all. The following day after the radio program, the M62 was alive with those contractors and workers who had presumably been skiving. The project manager didn't know because he stayed in his comfy bunker and didnt go and meet people on the ground and do a bit of probing. This seems to be one of the bigger failings of Crossrail. Noone wants to be the bearer of bad news, particularly if they or their bosses bonus depends on meeting targets!!

Commonly known a "Greenshifting" where at every tier of management there is a preference to report the good news (green) rather than the bad (red). The further the reports go up the ladder the more the news shifts to the green so by time it reaches board/ministerial level it looks like everything is going fine... until it's too late.

It's probably not surprising that the whole project is going to be late and over budget considering how big and complicated it was but maybe the warning signs should have been recognised and addressed earlier

 

[33Hz]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-crossrail-has-hit-the-buffers-0h3njkz0s

In February, a bombshell landed on the desk of Mike Brown, the commissioner of Transport for London. It was a letter from Juergen Maier, UK chief executive of the German industrial titan Siemens, warning that trains for the capital’s £14.8bn Crossrail mega-project were 18 months behind schedule.

Siemens?

 

[700007]

I think they meant Bombardier. Siemens is a part of the project in terms of the actual infrastructure itself, but has nothing to do with the trains themselves.

 

[coppercapped]

I think they meant Bombardier. Siemens is a part of the project in terms of the actual infrastructure itself, but has nothing to do with the trains themselves.

No, they meant Siemens.

Siemens is installing the signalling equipment and these days a lot of it is in the train and has to 'talk' to the train's control system.

Because Bombardier's software was late, Siemens could not complete or test the integration of their on-board systems with Bombardier's kit.

So Siemens knew the trains were late.

 

[33Hz]

As they specifically mention the CEO of Siemens UK it can hardly be a typo.